GunRunnerJohn - Up Grade help needed!

If this is a traditional AC motor version it can't be upgraded to PS-2.  G

Let's start a discussion on this subject.

If it's a worm gear loco, it can be converted, but having done two, it is not economically justifiable.  Figure about $50 for a can motor from Frank Timko, plus an MTH upgrade kit.  (I have posted a thread on doing this job on a #624)

If not a worm gear loco, but the old side plate design, that's a challenge. I can concerive of some possibilities:

     (1) One could replace the armature with a spur gear, and try to fit a can motor with a worm on the end of a long shaft.  Major effort.

     (2) Can a tach tape be wrapped around the armature poles, and clear the field magnet and be read by a reader slipped between the field magnet poles???????  Theoretically, a full-wave bridge rectifier between a brush and the field magnet would convert the series-wound motor into a reversible motor.

     (3)Is there some place to mount a disc on which the stripes could be drawn?????

     (4) At last April York meeting of the DCS user group, MTH made mention of working on a device to convert old locos without using a tach tape, admittedly without precise speed control.  I have heard nothing more on the subject.

GGG & RJR,

    I did not know that it could not be done, Bummer I really wanted the old 264 to be upgraded, can it be done with Legacy type package, or is this the same problem in a different way.

PCRR/Dave

You can upgrade it to TMCC with the AC Commander product, but you won't get cruise control.

Bear in mind, Dave, that you can't make a silk purse from the hair on a sow's ear.  Smooth as my #624 runs, it is no match for new MTH.

Since I have grades, no way would I want a loco without cruise control.

Guns & RJR,

   Tell me more about this TMCC upgrade, just what will it do, I am not worried about Cruise control, I want to put this 264 on a 3rd level inner oval of RealTrax, will I be able to run it from the Legacy Cab2 remote control, I want to pull the Christmas Box Cars around the Bear Christmas tree, and have TMCC type control, with sounds.  Guns I do not want to have to use a 3rd different remote control hand held, I am already using both the DCS and Cab2 hand held remote controls.   I run the 264 right now from the TR mode of the DCS hand held remote control, of course it has no sounds what so ever, no lights either, but runs smooth as glass.

PCRR/Dave

You can run with TMCC control and have sound if you like.  The cruise is the only part that's not possible with the AC motor.

Dave, sorry, but I know nothing about TMCC.  Years ago I made a decision to stick with DCS and not complicate things.  I converted all my can-motored Weavers, Williams, and MTHs (none of which had sounds besides whistles) to PS2, along with two Pulmor-powered worm-geared 60+-year-old Lionels.

Guns,

    Will I get freight sounds or what, remember I have nothing but Legacy right now as far as Lionel goes.  This sounds real cool, If you will do the work I will box the 264 up after the Christmas layout comes down, and send it to you.  I will not need it back till

just before Christmas next year, work on it in between the other stuff you have planned. 

PCRR/Dave

Dave, send me an email to my profile email address and we'll arrange to get your locomotive talking TMCC.

Guns,

   I tried to use the e-mail in your profile once before it did not work, my e-mail is Pine-Creek@live.com  drop me some e-mail and I will return it, this will lock your e-mail into my contact list.

Thank you sir I appreciate this very much!

PCRR/Dave

You don't get MTH type passenger or freight type sounds.  You will get generic crew dialogue pressing TMCC buttons.  You select a generic sound set from the ERR list.

The other alternative is to order the DC motor engine and swap it in.  At that point you can go command, but that is an expensive method to get that engine with PS-2.  G

I'm pretty sure swapping a different motor into an old 264 locomotive is a non-starter.

What is the motor set up in a 264?  Worm or sideplate?

The motor in the 264 I'm familiar with is a sideplate motor, the motor and wheels are one assembly.

Well, I did not know if he was talking about the MTH version or an original, but Yes to a swap in an original also.  The Tinplate guys have been doing this for years.  Guys that run there old stuff add the DC can motor motors.  G

Guns & GGG,

    This 264 is the Lionel original, as far as I know MTH has never produced a 264 of any kind conventional or P2/P3, if they have I will purchase it and leave the original to run via DCS TR mode, other wise I want Guns to up grade the original with TMCC, so I can run it from the Legacy Cab2 with the different sounds.

PCRR/Dave

GRJ & GGG, have your contacts at MTH indicated anything about the non-tach-tape project I mentioned above?

I haven't heard a thing about a project like that.

The only swap I've seen is a fairly small can motor in place of the motor armature.  I doubt I'd want to run anything very big with that arrangement.

John For the larger Tinplate it is a Pittman motor.  For many of these items the whole assembly can be swapped.  In fact some are using MTH parts for restoration of original pieces.  This is not a jury rig add of a DC can. G

I am not up on Pre War Tinplate, but MTH did make 263 and 265 and some others.  If this is a 4 wheel driver assembly you maybe able to swap the shell assembly.  Was just a thought.  G

I'm not so sure the problem, if conversion to DCS is desired, is so much adding a DC motor, as finding a place for a tach tape. Seems to me that a series wound motor, which is inherently not polarity sensitive for rotation direction purposes, can be made to be polarity sensitive if a full-wave rectifier is mounted between the one brush and the field magnet, so that regardless of which way a DC flows through the armature windings (as determined by the PS2 or 3 board), it will only flow one way through the field windings.

GGG,

  The 264 is a mid sized engine and tender, not as big as the 263E, or as small as the 259E that is the problem.  I believe when Guns upgrades this 264 Lionel engine it will be the only one like it around.  I was hoping for DCS but TMCC will do.

PCRR/Dave

Note the difference between the size of the 263E on top and the 264 below it.

Looks like the challenge might be insulating the tender shell for the antenna.  As I recall, those are put on with tabs.  That might require some thinking...

Guns,

   I believe you are correct, I will have to pull the tender and see how the shell is attached.

PCRR/Dave

Your really going to chop that up for TMCC... Yikes.  Now I understand the difference on the various prewar #s.  Thanks, G

Those are really nice engines.  As GGG mentioned, if MTH made some similar models with DCS and sound already in them, would it be worth it to check them out?  You would have the same effect while preserving a classic engine in it's original condition. 

MTH has a 263E, but I don't fine a 264, just the 264E which is a different locomotive.

GGG,

   What do you mean chop that up?  I do not want to chop anything up, just add TMCC to it, am I asking the impossible here?

Guns,

    You see why I posted the pictures of the 264, it's really a smaller version of the 263E, the 264E was a newer completely different Lionel Tin Plate Train, although it is a cool train its not what I own and want to upgrade.

William1,

   If MTH would have made a P2 264, believe me I would already own it, unfortunately MTH has not reproduced any of the mid sized Tin Plate engines and tenders in Conventional or P2.  It's a Bummer cause I really like this 264 and would like to have a Gun metal Gray 259E also, to complete the 3 size set, would be great to have it in  P2 or P3 of course.

PCRR/Dave

My Black 259E, wish it was Gun Metal Gray however.

Yep, I looked around for the 264 in MTH, but AFAIK, they never made that model.

Guns,

   I am not adverse to a TMCC 264 if you can do the job without, as GGG says chopping the 264 up, some of the TMCC stuff is pretty nice and the freight car sounds are cool also, I have not heard the generic stuff however.  I did not know I could pick the sounds, thought there was only freight or passenger sounds to TMCC.

Can you program your own sounds with this kind of TMCC upgrade?

PCRR/Dave

Dave, you have to pick from the available sound boards at ERR, visit www.electricrr.com and click on the Purchase link.  There you will find links to actual sound clips for each of the boards.  There are no "passenger" or "freight" sounds specifically, it's just generic crew talk.  There is no provision for the end user to load unique sounds, what you see is what you get.

For stuff like crew talk, you do get a lot more choices with MTH, however the new ERR boards do have very good sound for whistle, bell, and locomotive running sounds.

As far as any upgrade, I'd have to evaluate the locomotive and tell you what would be changed/altered before actually starting with the process.  I hate surprises as much as the next guy.

Dave,  John can tell you how he will do it, but you probably need a tether between unit for sound so there will have to be a hole drilled if one doesn't exist.  The back of the engine may or may not be modified for the tether.  All depends on how it fits, and for this smaller unit you don't have much room in the engine with a side plate motor.

Also, those tabs on the tenders don't like to be bent after 70 plus years in the same position.  It is just a delicate undertaking for an engine like that.  G

George is correct, I'd have to look it over and see how much "hacking" it requires to do the upgrade.  There will most certainly have to be a tether, and we'd also have to figure out the issue of the antenna, that could be problematic with the design of old tinplate.  It may simply not be all that practical, I've never even considered this kind of conversion.

I know that Harry has a lot of old tinplate, I should probably look at something similar and see if it makes sense.

Guns,

   I will definitely send you the engine and tender after the Christmas layout comes down in the beginning of February.  You can appraise the actual 264 and see if any of this upgrade is actually possible in that way.  I figured that this might be a 1st time event for this kind of upgrade, that is the main reason I wanted you to look at doing the job, figured this would not be an engineering job for any kind of  semi-experienced Tech.

PCRR/Dave

If you use a little heat and some care, you can remove the connector shells from the bad 5V board and put them on the 3V board.  The one you don't remove from the 3V board is the two-pin one for the battery, as you won't be using the 9V battery harness.  All the other connectors are pin compatible, just the shells are different.

You'll need a 3V battery harness and charging jack as well as a 3V battery.  You'll also need a 4 ohm speaker to replace the 16 ohm speaker.  If your 3V board doesn't have the heatsink, you'll need one of those as well.