Has anyone received their new Lionel BTO 0-8-0s?

Dave_C posted:

 Jon, I appreciate your response. You are a stand up guy. In these past few years there hasn't been anything that I would call a bad runner. Everything either has ERR, Legacy or DCS and I have them all. Including EOB and K-Line cruise in some of my older locos. Most complaints or worries  today seem to be about details being wrong, incorrect lettering or sounds. The last thing you expect when ordering a new engine these days. Is a performance issue.

Yes, thanks Jon for addressing this, well at least what happened.  

Dave_C posted:

 Keith, After loading the module. The engine came up AF Pullmor, Legacy Control, Legacy Railsounds. Figured the AF Pullmor was the problem. Went back into the settings and manually changed it to a Steam Switcher. It still ran the same. When I run my road engines many times I just use the Speed mode. The first arrow is suppose to be about 5 mph. It's more like 30 with this one. Had a Lionel tech check it out with the same results.

 The engine is runnable. Just not what it should be. Legacy switchers are suppose to be able to be used as helpers with rd. engines. That's the reason they are designated Steam Switcher in the remote. When used with a Steam Rd. engine it speeds up the switcher so that they don't fight with one another. It's already going way to fast. It also doesn't follow the standard Legacy RR speeds. It has the features of a Legacy engine. Just not the fine speed control. 

 I've been hoping someone else would chime in here. I was hoping at first the problem was isolated to my engine. But after reading the posts on the N&W Class A and Jon Z's comments I guess they will all have this issue. If you are a simple loop runner you might be fine with it. As far as a switcher. Not so good. As far as the cruise being like the ERR ones with no encoder. I recently installed one in a Weaver Brass 0-6-0. Runs really well. I believe the type of cruise they used isn't the issue. It should have been geared better.

I have plenty of engines to run. It's still upsetting to spend this much money on what you thought would be the ultimate switcher. The Pennsy B6 was one of the best running engines I have ever seen or run. This should have been the same with one more axle.  Then find out your old Odyssey from 12 years ago outperforms it.

 

Thanks for the explanation. Now I know for sure that this is a fact. I will be contacting Lionel for resolution. This is unacceptable to me.

Tiffany posted:

What Lionel really needs to do is some serious ""PRICE" cutting measures........ I paid 1200 for my Sunset 3rd rail brass S.F. 5011 2-10-4 but WHY would ANYONE pay 1100 for yard 0-8-0 switcher steamer ?    There is no logic in this except GREED. There are plenty of scale size 0-8-0's on ebay for much less !!!

Tiffany 

Actually, The real problem is how Lionel appears to be in a one size fits all mode when outfitting a high cost product line that demands individualized attention.

joe 

The best feature of Legacy is the speed control (IMO) with its calibrated speed settings and ability to match speeds with other engines. Maybe they need to call these BEMF engines something else, like Legacy Lite or something. 

Hmmm...not as easy as a new bronze set of gears to fix...as if that was easy to replace (I did one). But maybe a new motor drive board with redone electronics. If I had one of these engines I would buy one.

Norm Charbonneau posted:

The best feature of Legacy is the speed control (IMO) with its calibrated speed settings and ability to match speeds with other engines. Maybe they need to call these BEMF engines something else, like Legacy Lite or something. 

Disappointing, that with back EMF control, it's not truly Legacy, but worse, as reported by Dave, the low end speed steps are off by a factor of 5X or so. This is what I cannot accept.

Maybe the right thing would have been for Lionel to cancel these before they were delivered.

The rediculous price  for something that operates like a starter set engine is unacceptable.

What about a rebate for the folks that bought these thinking they were legacy engines?

Do yourself a favor, send Lionel the message and return it. Then , if you can't find one of the previous legacy versions, the tmcc ones go for $300-$400 all the time. I've seen many with little or no run time.

An all new reason NOT to buy into the bto hype.  

I wonder how far into the line this will go?

It doesn't sound promising for the moguls. What about the $1000 k4s?

Interesting forum days ahead.

This was the classic TMCC Odyssey complaint - mismatched speed settings due to different gear ratios and driver diameters. This was even before they started changing the speed curves to sort of flatten the original hockey stick speed curve they started with. 

I want to return mine, but I don't want my LHS to be stuck with it. With the BTO program, I don't think he is obligated to take it back. How do I return it to Lionel? It's brand new. I haven't even opened the orange box.

A premium price is expected to be accompanied by a premium service or premium product.

Not only does this model appear to be anything BUT premium, it's actually a lesser model than previously released versions.....at almost twice the cost.

Lionel should actually be ashamed of themselves on this one....when they're not laughing all the way to the bank.  Boo.....!!!!!!!  Again.

Norm Charbonneau posted:

This was the classic TMCC Odyssey complaint - mismatched speed settings due to different gear ratios and driver diameters. This was even before they started changing the speed curves to sort of flatten the original hockey stick speed curve they started with. 

Exactly right...  With early TMCC equipped motive power few engines ran alike.   Lionel had that frustrating issue licked with Legacy.   So much so that many of my misaligned TMCC engines ran smoother and slower under legacy control, my 0-8-0 and  S-1 electric switchers being two of them...  Too bad, it's hard to believe the issue is back.

joe   

Tiffany posted:

Soo Line posted:

I don't like this new approach by Lionel.

Since this is not an improvement - possibly a cost cutting measure................

Factor in the way it was introduced to the marketplace certainly  leaves a person suspicious.

And as mentioned earlier........how do we know which engines will have the new system.

I'm on hold for any new purchases until this becomes much more clear.

Dave

 

 

 

What Lionel really needs to do is some serious ""PRICE" cutting measures........ I paid 1200 for my Sunset 3rd rail brass S.F. 5011 2-10-4 but WHY would ANYONE pay 1100 for yard 0-8-0 switcher steamer ?    There is no logic in this except GREED. There are plenty of scale size 0-8-0's on ebay for much less !!!

Tiffany 

I think we're all in this together. I'm grateful that there's still a Lionel that resembles the train I received for Christmas in 1950. And if it has to cost what it costs to maintain the company then so be it. Running a company that has such a limited customer base can't be easy or have much room for anyone to get that well. 

I'm grateful and appreciative that talented and capable business and engineering folks are interested and spend their productive years doing Lionel. 

 

I think we're all in this together. I'm grateful that there's still a Lionel that resembles the train I received for Christmas in 1950. And if it has to cost what it costs to maintain the company then so be it. Running a company that has such a limited customer base can't be easy or have much room for anyone to get that well. 

I'm grateful and appreciative that talented and capable business and engineering folks are interested and spend their productive years doing Lionel. 

So what you're really saying is you'd rather have a crappy product from Lionel then no product at all... Got news for those who think like you,  we're not in this together....

Joe

kevinshashack@gmail.com posted:

Is it worth getting my antique American Flyer engine 565 repaired at a Lionel hardware store please respond I may be reached at 1-618-205-8413.

 

Your question is getting lost in the discussion.

You might get more replies if you  posted it as a new topic, instead of this argue-fest.

But I will try to answer it. I had to go google that engine, and then tried eBay. Far as I can tell, it is a pre-war Atlantic style 4-4-2. I found a completed auction on eBay here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Americ...:g:MWAAAOSwnbZYHpda, and the selling price was 34.50.

In my opinion, unless you have some sentimental value to the engine, I would say no. It is pre-war, it may have zinc-pest (although none of the same AF engines on eBay had it), its under sized, it has a limited number of wheels for picking up electrical power, and the same issue for pulling. I can't see how a repair shop could charge anything less than $50 for it.

I know I'll never buy a BEMF Legacy engine. I want the full essence of Legacy speed control. My biggest problem with this release is there was no apparent advanced notice of the BEMF board being substituted nor any explanation of the speed differences. Folks bought these with the intention of doing MUs and were expecting Legacy speed control as it is known. 

Perhaps if Lionel would have published the differences folks could have made an educated decision. I suggest you send them back if you are not happy with it. I know I would. I'd want to be able to run them and MU them with my other engines.

cjack posted:

 

I think we're all in this together. I'm grateful that there's still a Lionel that resembles the train I received for Christmas in 1950. And if it has to cost what it costs to maintain the company then so be it. Running a company that has such a limited customer base can't be easy or have much room for anyone to get that well. 

I'm grateful and appreciative that talented and capable business and engineering folks are interested and spend their productive years doing Lionel. 

But we're NOT all in this together.  Far from it.  Lionel is a business.  It's owned by a Private Equity Firm.  It is ABSOLUTELY their goal to sell us model trains at the highest possible gross profit or gross margin.   This is a fancy way of saying selling us their product at the Highest Price Point Possible while incurring the lowest overall cost to themselves in doing so.  There is no love for the hobby or the consumer driving Lionel's current decisions.  It is NOT necessarily their goal to produce the highest quality model trains possible.  There is absolutely nothing illegal or, in some circles, even unethical about this.  But it is the environment that we chose to partake in.

This goes beyond the basic premise that, in the long term, Lionel must make a profit in order to survive.  Rather, they are doing everything possible in their power to generate a greater rate of return for their Limited Partners.  At the same time, they try to generate the greatest possible Management Fee to themselves (the General Partner) that they can justify to the Limited Partners.  This is not my opinion.  This is how the majority (but not necessarily all) of the entities owned by Private Equity function.

Again, there is nothing necessarily wrong with this operating structure.  But it's incredibly naïve to think this hasn't manifested itself in the prices that have been asked by Lionel over the past three years or so.

Isn't Capitalism great !   Otherwise known as the GREED SYSTEM.....LOL   It fits human nature perfectly.

FWIW, Dan, it's only recently that the pricing and other cost cutting efforts by Big Orange have started to "grind my gears".

While far from cheap, I don't recall objecting to the pricing on the TMCC locos, the first round of Legacy locos, and even the first few offerings in the Vision Line.  Nor do I find MTH's current Premier pricing offensive.

But sometime, around 2013 or 2014, Lionel's pricing really started to give me pause.  Add BTO to the mix.....and forget about it.

That's another reason this forum is so great!

We can share and alert one another to unwanted developments and save ourselves an aggravating purchase or pave the way to the purchase of a gem we might have overlooked.

Dave

Berkshire President posted:

FWIW, Dan, it's only recently that the pricing and other cost cutting efforts by Big Orange have started to "grind my gears".

While far from cheap, I don't recall objecting to the pricing on the TMCC locos, the first round of Legacy locos, and even the first few offerings in the Vision Line.  Nor do I find MTH's current Premier pricing offensive.

But sometime, around 2013 or 2014, Lionel's pricing really started to give me pause.  Add BTO to the mix.....and forget about it.

Hello guys and gals and Berkshire President........

My last "lionel" product was a 6468 type double door silver boxcar which was purchased Sept 2015 after that I just stopped buying lionel and haven't made a purchase since.   This car is # 19240 G.N. up graded to late model die-cast trucks # 14078 but the thing that made me stop is the price of the trucks 20.99 plus shipping 15.17, total was 36.16 dollars (15.17 for shipping for 1 pound package ) all this for a 10 dollar boxcar ?   I made a small sticker and put it on the frame of the car reminding me to stop buying lionel and glad I did.   This is GREED simple as that.  MTH and Atlas their pricing is growing too.  BTO is a BAD idea for the customer as you never know what you getting until receiving it as lionel has a habit of making cost cutting changes to suit them in the last minute before shipping , failing to let customer know what the changes were as I been through that before.  Folks please don't do this BTO with lionel or MTH ,others.  Let them eat the cost, why should you (the customer) pay for that ?  If you want lionel then stick with postwar or prewar even tin plate.

Tiffany

I was disappointed by MTH in the early 2000's and now by Lionel. I still have an order in for an Atlas O locomotive. Maybe they won't disappoint me, except at their rate of production, I may only receive one more locomotive in my life time.

If the voices on this forum are a representative sample of the dedicated o gauge hobbyist, Lionel will soon see a decline in sales.  The fact that this aggressive pricing has continued now for a few years tells me it is working for Lionel.  Only they have the data to be able to tell.

My reaction, but I never know if my view is the same as the majority of buyers, is that I have been fine buying MTH in recent years.  My son was very happy with the SD60e and I was happy to save a $100 or so on an already expensive birthday present.  I like Lionel but I see no reason to spend significantly more for what are essentially very similar (and good) products.  

So...anybody else make a video of the new 0-8-0?

Fair enough, CJACK. 

cjack posted:

So...anybody else make a video of the new 0-8-0?

Yeah, I'd love to hear all of the sounds of this engine.

On that note, the BEMF Class A sounds AWESOME. Kind of forgot that it went kind of fast at times...  Lionel specs it at a half inch shorter than my LM Challenger but it's noticeably smaller, a little narrower and lower (no room for encoder board, rite?) and traverses the 048 on my layout with ease. Worst part...the owner took it home.

I'm just glad the 0-8-0's slow-speed performance came to light on the forum here.  As much as I'm a Beth Steel fan, I'm glad I passed on The Steel City Switcher set.  As I posted way back when this set was announced, I did in fact pre-order the set from Charlie Ro... but then there was some confusion about pricing and Charlie's pre-order pricing changed from $949 to $1049.  When I called Charlie to inquire about the change, he suggested we just leave the order as is and see what happens when Lionel finally ships the set.  Last week we spoke about the set's price again, and he indicated the pre-order price of $1049 was correct and newly placed orders would be $1099.  So I cancelled the pre-order with no problem whatsoever on Charlie's end.  Of course, I bought a few other goodies.   But it's a pleasure dealing with Charlie when things like this happen.  I've been buying from Charlie since the 1970's.

I think Lionel will need to be upfront with serious hobbyists about this BEMF thing not being 100% Legacy in the way we're accustomed to Legacy locomotives running.  It begs the question as to whether BEMF may or may not impact the upcoming Moguls and NW2's in the most recent 2016 Volume 2 catalog.  Perhaps this would explain why the NW2 "switchers" came in with a $500 MSRP vs. the S-2's $650 MSRP about a year ago.    Would be nice to hear some confirmation about this from Lionel.

From what I am reading, BEMF locomotives will not make the cut for locomotives making their way onto my roster, until Lionel makes them 100% compatible with earlier Legacy locomotive performance.  It IS a show-stopper otherwise.

Meanwhile, I'm glad I have a couple of Lionel's Legacy 0-6-0 B6 switchers from a year or so ago, as they'll be doing a fine job heading up trains with all my Bethlehem Steel rolling stock obtained over the years, including ore cars (RMT), slag cars (Lionel), hot metal cars (Lionel), crane/boom car combo (Lionel), coil cars (Atlas-O), and even scale flatcars with Bethlehem Steel pipe loads (K-Line).

David

I purchased one of the new Heislers (OK - Santa did) and haven't gotten it out yet.  I was totally impressed that Lionel was able to fit Legacy and even whistle steam into such a small engine.  I looked at one on display at Charlie Ro's at York and couldn't believe they fit it all in there.

Well I just checked Lionel's part listing for this engine and guess what the motor driver board is:

So it looks like I bought one of these without knowing it as well.  Have to see how it performs when I get it out.

I've upgraded a number of engines with the ERR Back EMF cruise kits and all have been a nice upgrade over what was in the engines previously.  In fact I have a Atlas UP PA in for repair that I'm going to put in a Cruise Commander kit. 

So I believe the Back EMF runs nicely but this isn't what I thought I had purchased!!!  I've got a NW-2 on order as well, probably be the same type of thing.  Don't like finding out these type of things after the fact.  Reminds me of the smaller Berkshires from a few years ago that promised whistle steam and then came without it.  I kept it but still not happy about it - guess I should have voted by sending it back.

Jim

Jim Sandman posted:

I purchased one of the new Heislers (OK - Santa did) and haven't gotten it out yet.  I was totally impressed that Lionel was able to fit Legacy and even whistle steam into such a small engine.  I looked at one on display at Charlie Ro's at York and couldn't believe they fit it all in there.

Well I just checked Lionel's part listing for this engine and guess what the motor driver board is:

691BEMC054

BEMC / MOTOR DRIVER / HEISLER / 682815

So it looks like I bought one of these without knowing it as well.  Have to see how it performs when I get it out.

I've upgraded a number of engines with the ERR Back EMF cruise kits and all have been a nice upgrade over what was in the engines previously.  In fact I have a Atlas UP PA in for repair that I'm going to put in a Cruise Commander kit. 

So I believe the Back EMF runs nicely but this isn't what I thought I had purchased!!!  I've got a NW-2 on order as well, probably be the same type of thing.  Don't like finding out these type of things after the fact.  Reminds me of the smaller Berkshires from a few years ago that promised whistle steam and then came without it.  I kept it but still not happy about it - guess I should have voted by sending it back.

 

Jim

In the case of a Heisler, I could be more forgiving.  I would venture to guess that not too many would be in a MU.  I also believe the gearing on these are such that it would be a big deal. Which is probably why this wasn't noticed in them sooner.   That being said it would have been nice to know that there was a difference.  I imagine this is catching a lot of people by surprise that are used to the standard Legacy setup.

 I suspect the NW-2 should be able to fit the standard Legacy electronics package.

Jim Sandman posted:

I purchased one of the new Heislers (OK - Santa did) and haven't gotten it out yet.  I was totally impressed that Lionel was able to fit Legacy and even whistle steam into such a small engine.  I looked at one on display at Charlie Ro's at York and couldn't believe they fit it all in there.

Well I just checked Lionel's part listing for this engine and guess what the motor driver board is:

691BEMC054

BEMC / MOTOR DRIVER / HEISLER / 682815

So it looks like I bought one of these without knowing it as well.  Have to see how it performs when I get it out.

 

...

 

Interesting... as the plot thickens.  I was wondering about those little jewels as well.  And they weren't exactly cheap either!!!  There were a couple of early photos and videos posted here of the Heislers, but I don't recall any issues being reported.

So now I'm confused where "the problem" really resides... hardware or software/firmware?    And if the latter, why can't Lionel make good on it?

David 

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Jim Sandman posted:

I purchased one of the new Heislers (OK - Santa did) and haven't gotten it out yet.  I was totally impressed that Lionel was able to fit Legacy and even whistle steam into such a small engine.  I looked at one on display at Charlie Ro's at York and couldn't believe they fit it all in there.

Well I just checked Lionel's part listing for this engine and guess what the motor driver board is:

691BEMC054

BEMC / MOTOR DRIVER / HEISLER / 682815

So it looks like I bought one of these without knowing it as well.  Have to see how it performs when I get it out.

 

...

 

Interesting... as the plot thickens.  I was wondering about those little jewels as well.  And they weren't exactly cheap either!!!  There were a couple of early photos and videos posted here of the Heislers, but I don't recall any issues being reported.

So now I'm confused where "the problem" really resides... hardware or software/firmware?    And if the latter, why can't Lionel make good on it?

David 

Might sound stupid this late in the thread but what is BEMC and which engines already have it ?

joe   

JC642 posted:

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Jim Sandman posted:

I purchased one of the new Heislers (OK - Santa did) and haven't gotten it out yet.  I was totally impressed that Lionel was able to fit Legacy and even whistle steam into such a small engine.  I looked at one on display at Charlie Ro's at York and couldn't believe they fit it all in there.

Well I just checked Lionel's part listing for this engine and guess what the motor driver board is:

691BEMC054

BEMC / MOTOR DRIVER / HEISLER / 682815

So it looks like I bought one of these without knowing it as well.  Have to see how it performs when I get it out.

 

...

 

Interesting... as the plot thickens.  I was wondering about those little jewels as well.  And they weren't exactly cheap either!!!  There were a couple of early photos and videos posted here of the Heislers, but I don't recall any issues being reported.

So now I'm confused where "the problem" really resides... hardware or software/firmware?    And if the latter, why can't Lionel make good on it?

David 

Might sound stupid this late in the thread but what is BEMC and which engines already have it ?

joe   

Joe,

I think that is what this thread is about - finding out which engines have it. 

Just because a product is using Back EMF doesn't make it a bad product, just not the Legacy product we have been use to getting.  It does sound like the ones with the speed steps not incrementing as expected and no MU of the engines appear to be the problem so far.

Looking at the Lionel part site it appears only the Heisler and the American Flyer products are listed so far.

Jim

Jim Sandman posted:

JC642 posted:

Might sound stupid this late in the thread but what is BEMC and which engines already have it ?

joe   

Joe,

I think that is what this thread is about - finding out which engines have it. 

Just because a product is using Back EMF doesn't make it a bad product, just not the Legacy product we have been use to getting.  It does sound like the ones with the speed steps not incrementing as expected and no MU of the engines appear to be the problem so far.

Looking at the Lionel part site it appears only the Heisler and the American Flyer products are listed so far.

Jim

Jim, thank you.  Just finding it hard to believe given how Lionel's Legacy that finally overcame MTH's most critical attraction, total compatability is back in the forefront.   Along with the previous FEF fiasco, I see it as a continuing disregard for customer expectations.    IMO, maybe Lionel should concentrate on what it has done best over the years , starter sets and its traditional line and simply get out of the high cost market of models where expectations are high, the customer base critical and there's simply no room for excuses and mistakes...

Joe

JC642 posted:

IMO, maybe Lionel should concentrate on what it has done best over the years , starter sets and its traditional line and simply get out of the high cost market of models where expectations are high, the customer base critical and there's simply no room for excuses and mistakes...

Joe

No they shouldn't.  I want Legacy scale engines.  I won't make excuses for these but Lionel has done some fantastic models. 

MartyE posted:

JC642 posted:

IMO, maybe Lionel should concentrate on what it has done best over the years , starter sets and its traditional line and simply get out of the high cost market of models where expectations are high, the customer base critical and there's simply no room for excuses and mistakes...

Joe

No they shouldn't.  I want Legacy scale engines.  I won't make excuses for these but Lionel has done some fantastic models. 

IMO, MTH makes all Lionel tinplate and does a grest job plus the MTH WiFi App. now has full control of Lionel's Legacy engines, so whats the problem not letting them make Lionel's scale motive power with Legacy under licence?    Surprise,  me thinks you'll get a far better job and maybe at less cost...

Joe 

Just put in the BTO description that these engines are not full Legacy and will not MU with other Legacy engines. We can then make a buying decision.

Rod Miller

"Might sound stupid this late in the thread but what is BEMC and which engines already have it ?

joe   "

Back E M F   as is used in the ERR Cruise Commander M electronics. So far as we've heard, the new Class A LionMasters and the new 0-8-0 switchers. And there is speculation on other engines such as the Heislers since the parts lists show the BEMF electronics. 

In fact the parts lookups may be the best way to see what has what...if they have them listed yet. But that doesn't help BTO a year ahead of the product. There will most certainly have to be a disclosure with all this flak about it.

BTW, how do the BEMF engines do in MU with other BEMF engines? This may just be another category of product compatibility...

If it doesn't fit it doesn't fit.  I imagine the biggest issue is folks didn't know.  BEMF works great as others have said I have a few ERR boards with it. 

The assertion to have MTH make Legacy scale engine is a bit extreme and IMO won't ever happen.

MartyE posted:

If it doesn't fit it doesn't fit.  I imagine the biggest issue is folks didn't know.  BEMF works great as others have said I have a few ERR boards with it. 

The assertion to have MTH make Legacy scale engine is a bit extreme and IMO won't ever happen.

The far bigger issue is Lionel quietly resurrecting a huge problem that long ago disappeared..

Joe