Has anyone received their new Lionel BTO 0-8-0s?

Well, maybe it's not all bad. Thinking about it, maybe this could be the Legacy upgrade platform in the future. No encoder to set up and it wouldn't be much different from a current ERR TMCC cruise upgrade. 

I am still a little mystified as to why the low end speeds seem to suffer, especially on these particular models. The original TMCC 0-8-0s had a very nice gear ratio and at the time were the slowest crawling TMCC/Odyssey steamers even with the old pre-on/off 32 step Odyssey. On my upgrade projects over the years, ERR cruise works especially well with low gear ratios. It's probably just the arrangement of speed destinations like Jon mentioned. Maybe Lionel service could update the firmware now that they are aware of customer complaints.

JC642 posted:

MartyE posted:

If it doesn't fit it doesn't fit.  I imagine the biggest issue is folks didn't know.  BEMF works great as others have said I have a few ERR boards with it. 

The assertion to have MTH make Legacy scale engine is a bit extreme and IMO won't ever happen.

The far bigger issue is Lionel quietly resurrecting a huge problem that long ago disappeared..

Joe

A very valid point.....

Norm Charbonneau posted:

Well, maybe it's not all bad. Thinking about it, maybe this could be the Legacy upgrade platform in the future. No encoder to set up and it wouldn't be much different from a current ERR TMCC cruise upgrade. 

I am still a little mystified as to why the low end speeds seem to suffer, especially on these particular models. The original TMCC 0-8-0s had a very nice gear ratio and at the time were the slowest crawling TMCC/Odyssey steamers even with the old pre-on/off 32 step Odyssey. On my upgrade projects over the years, ERR cruise works especially well with low gear ratios. It's probably just the arrangement of speed destinations like Jon mentioned. Maybe Lionel service could update the firmware now that they are aware of customer complaints.

Wouldn't that firmware update require a new motor board?

As for MUing the Heisler, I got one and wanted to find a Legacy Shay to MU it with.  But now that it's outed as a BEMF I know I can't do that which makes me sad.  I'm also glad I passed on the recent 0-8-0's as I would of wanted to MU it with the 0-6-0 I have.  Now I wonder what will happen with the 2-6-0 I have on order as that was most definitely going to be MUed.  I went with Legacy because I could MU anything, but that is no longer the case.  I understand that parts went obsolete and caused this change, but I do feel that Lionel should of either stated as much so that we as consumers knew (And then likewise list it in the catalog for every locomotive that is now this way.), or again informed us of the parts issue and halted production until a redesign such that the encoders could be used.  Am I upset that my Class A I ordered will not be able to MU with any of my other Legacy Locomotives?  YES!  But now that I know, I'll just have to treat it like my K-Line Big Boy and Allegheny in that it'll always run along.  I just hope Lionel takes the time and resources to do a redesign to get encoders to fit in the smaller locomotives again, and until such time as they are able to complete that they list which control scheme is in the locomotive in their catalogs.

EDIT:  Also, it just came to me that this will also greatly affect my layout.  I have one loop of track that I can run 3 short trains on.  With Legacy I could set them all to the same speed, not in a MU, and they'd not run into each over.  I will not be able to run it that way anymore if I want to use a BEMF locomotive.  So this has now greatly reduced the enjoyment of the hobby.

Norm Charbonneau posted:

Well, maybe it's not all bad. Thinking about it, maybe this could be the Legacy upgrade platform in the future. No encoder to set up and it wouldn't be much different from a current ERR TMCC cruise upgrade. 

 

In retrospect, dating all the way back to 2001, the first  P-2 engine, a  RK K4 steamer can still be double headed with everything and anything produced today in P-3 from MTH.    IMO, The notion that as electronics become obsolete they lose compatability is a non starter... Me thinks its all about the CFO making CEO decisions...

joe

Norm Charbonneau posted:

I don't know, would it? 

I don't know if the firmware is sufficient to change the speed control and the board can be reloaded or if there is some analog feedback gain change required or what. Jon said something about the gearing which might have been better chosen.

If this is some variant of ERR Cruise, is there any speed step selection? 32 vs. 100 or something?

The OP Dave, loaded his Legacy system with the orange memory stick. In his photo of the Remote you can see that it is operating in Legacy mode, which should be 200 steps.

Folks, I am monitoring the forum closely on this topic and trying to help where possible.  I can clear up a few things relative to the products with the BEMF technology.   Please note that aside from not having the Legacy compliant speed table, the locomotives have every other Legacy feature, including the 200 speed step support.

The Heisler that was cataloged in 2015 was the first O Scale engine to use the BEMC Legacy electronics. This was due to the fact that the standard RCMC simply would not fit in such a small engine.  Lionel felt it was acceptable as the gearing in the Heisler drive train naturally prevents the engine from being in a lash-up with other Legacy engines.

The new 0-8-0 switchers and the LionMaster Class A engines are the only other two engines to have the BEMC electronics.  In the case of the 0-8-0, there was no physical room for the RCMC, and the outdated modular Legacy electronics could not be reused.

We want to confirm to our customers that moving forward, there are currently no plans to use the BEMC in any more O Gauge locomotives. The NW2 has been designed to use the RCMC and will perform similar to the S2 that was released a couple of years ago.  If a special case does occur where we need to use the BEMC, it will be explicitly stated in the catalog.

SantaFeFan posted:

If a special case does occur where we need to use the BEMC, it will be explicitly stated in the catalog.

I think that was the main point for most.  It came as a bit of a surprise for most who expected the similar speed curve.

Thanks Jon!

SantaFeFan posted:

Folks, I am monitoring the forum closely on this topic and trying to help where possible.  I can clear up a few things relative to the products with the BEMF technology.   Please note that aside from not having the Legacy compliant speed table, the locomotives have every other Legacy feature, including the 200 speed step support.

The Heisler that was cataloged in 2015 was the first O Scale engine to use the BEMC Legacy electronics. This was due to the fact that the standard RCMC simply would not fit in such a small engine.  Lionel felt it was acceptable as the gearing in the Heisler drive train naturally prevents the engine from being in a lash-up with other Legacy engines.

The new 0-8-0 switchers and the LionMaster Class A engines are the only other two engines to have the BEMC electronics.  In the case of the 0-8-0, there was no physical room for the RCMC, and the outdated modular Legacy electronics could not be reused.

We want to confirm to our customers that moving forward, there are currently no plans to use the BEMC in any more O Gauge locomotives. The NW2 has been designed to use the RCMC and will perform similar to the S2 that was released a couple of years ago.  If a special case does occur where we need to use the BEMC, it will be explicitly stated in the catalog.

Hopefully you are already hard at work on the next-gen electronics Jon. I find it difficult to understand how DCC manages to be so much smaller and have more sounds of equal or better quality, and with better motor control than Legacy. I have a 6 amp LokSound board that drives all the lights, the smoke unit, and the sounds that I need and it's less than half the size. I'm sure there is something that can be done. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with next.

SantaFeFan posted:

Folks, I am monitoring the forum closely on this topic and trying to help where possible.  I can clear up a few things relative to the products with the BEMF technology.   Please note that aside from not having the Legacy compliant speed table, the locomotives have every other Legacy feature, including the 200 speed step support.

The Heisler that was cataloged in 2015 was the first O Scale engine to use the BEMC Legacy electronics. This was due to the fact that the standard RCMC simply would not fit in such a small engine.  Lionel felt it was acceptable as the gearing in the Heisler drive train naturally prevents the engine from being in a lash-up with other Legacy engines.

The new 0-8-0 switchers and the LionMaster Class A engines are the only other two engines to have the BEMC electronics.  In the case of the 0-8-0, there was no physical room for the RCMC, and the outdated modular Legacy electronics could not be reused.

We want to confirm to our customers that moving forward, there are currently no plans to use the BEMC in any more O Gauge locomotives. The NW2 has been designed to use the RCMC and will perform similar to the S2 that was released a couple of years ago.  If a special case does occur where we need to use the BEMC, it will be explicitly stated in the catalog.

Happy to hear the NW2 will have the RCMC board. 

Jon:  Appreciate the input.  Kudos to you for "facing the music", so to speak.

Great news, Jon. Thanks for staying on top of this thread.  Very much appreciated!!!

David

Very much appreciated ??

not sure that I'd be so quck to let Lionel off the hook on this. 

They rolled the dice, cut corners and lost.

They could have polled those who preordered to see if their solution would have been acceptable but they probably figured that most would roll over and accept sub par product.

Tiffany posted:

Soo Line posted:

I don't like this new approach by Lionel.

Since this is not an improvement - possibly a cost cutting measure................

Factor in the way it was introduced to the marketplace certainly  leaves a person suspicious.

And as mentioned earlier........how do we know which engines will have the new system.

I'm on hold for any new purchases until this becomes much more clear.

Dave

 

 

 

What Lionel really needs to do is some serious ""PRICE" cutting measures........ I paid 1200 for my Sunset 3rd rail brass S.F. 5011 2-10-4 but WHY would ANYONE pay 1100 for yard 0-8-0 switcher steamer ?    There is no logic in this except GREED. There are plenty of scale size 0-8-0's on ebay for much less !!!

Tiffany 

Hmmm,

I'm perfectly content with the $1450 for my soon to be received brass Sunset SP S-12 0-6-0. 

graz posted:

Very much appreciated ??

not sure that I'd be so quck to let Lionel off the hook on this. 

They rolled the dice, cut corners and lost.

 

 

Did they lose? Or are they laughing all the way to the bank. Selling a product thats operational  characteristics are inferior to the tmcc version offered over a decade ago with a rediculous $800 street price tag.

Talk about bait and switch.

Big Mike walks and now this. I'm starting to lose my "warm and fuzzy feelings" towards Lionel.

Nothing personal against Jon , but these are the same corporate rubber stamp answers.... I get it.

First it was a space issue. then obsolescence, now  oops, sorry,no other locos will  have the BEMF

Then I go to a forum sponsors website and realize I can get an Mth niagara, 5 reefers and a caboose all for under $1000. 

Mth has yet to have an(supposed) electronics obsolescence issue.

I could sell all of my Lionel replace it with the same items from Mth and have a substantial amount of money left to put back in the bank.  Along with no song and dance about why something isn't delivered as it was described.

 Three pages on this topic. After reading through them again. I believe I'm the only one that's run one. I ran it some more and tried to do a direct comparison to my older Legacy 0-8-0. Below the numbers represent the speed steps the 2 engines are running at. I let the new Wabash lead and basically just crept up to it with an older MKT till the distance stayed the same.

   Wabash.                          MKT

   1.                                       14

   2.                                        22

    4.                                       36

    6.                                       48

  I did this by eye and I may be off a little bit.  For about every step the Wabash increases. The MKT requires about 6 to 10 to stay with it.

 I have a few switchers. Even a couple of MTH 0-8-0's. I decided to run the same test with my older Odyssey Boston & Albany from years ago. Thought that was the ultimate in slow speed in it's day. But remember we were comparing it to other Odyssey locos. They ran pretty much identical. At least for the first 7 steps. My recently converted Weaver 0-6-0 which really runs nice with ERR Cruise. Pretty much the same results. 

 I think I've run my earlier Legacy so much I got use to all the speed steps. In fact in getting it over to the new Wabash I speeded things up a little and saw 150 on the Legacy remote. I can't fathom what the Wabash would be like at that step. Remember these engines probably require twice as many steps to go the same speed as a Rd. Engine. The Legacy remote adjusts this if you are using them as a helper.

 If the speed curve stays the same throughout. I'm guessing you would be at speed step 20 to 30 where the older Legacy would be at 200. 

 After running it beside my older Odyssey I feel a little better. Not thrilled. But this is a usable engine. On the a plus side. It still has cruise and it will creep in the lower steps. Just not the fine Legacy control with about 80 usable steps. The sounds are much more robust than the older Legacy or Railsounds 5 Odyssey. You would have to have some awful track work to stall this one. As far as price. I have more of a roster than a collection. This one will be re lettered and weathered. I run one roadname and every engine has a job. I wanted a switcher that ran like the Pennsy B6. Not quite what I got. I paid roughly 800 for it. Pricey but I knew I'd get 800 dollars worth of enjoyment out of it. The engine that's worth the most. Is the one you run the most. The BTO thing. The part that stings. I put up my money and ordered it expecting something.  Lionel didn't hold up there end of the bargain. 

That's Lionel "1" and consumer "0" for those of you keeping score at home.

Dave. Thank you for continuing to report on this issue. I didn't run mine because at this moment, I have no track in place.

RickO posted: 

...

Did they lose? Or are they laughing all the way to the bank. Selling a product thats operational  characteristics are inferior to the tmcc version offered over a decade ago with a rediculous $800 street price tag.

Talk about bait and switch.

Big Mike walks and now this. I'm starting to lose my "warm and fuzzy feelings" towards Lionel.

... 

Be careful, RickO...  If folks only read your post and skipped the header info, they'd swear I posted those comments... Or some members here might start a conspiracy theory that I put you up to it!!!!  

David

RickO posted:

 

...

Then I go to a forum sponsors website and realize I can get an Mth niagara, 5 reefers and a caboose all for under $1000.     ... 

True story.... I stopped by Nicholas Smith Trains tonight to see some of the new stuff in person that Lionel and MTH have been delivering recently.  And I was stopped literally in my tracks when I saw a Nickel Plate Road Berkshire steamer w/PS3 on display followed by FIVE scale flatcars with NKP twin trailers and a nice caboose.  Looked mighty handsome -- even to somebody like myself who already has a nice roster of Lionel PS-4 flats with twin trailers.

Turns out it was an MTH train set priced under $1100!!!    Now there's some great price/performance, bang-for-your-buck, play-value... whatever you want to call it.  Given where Lionel is going with their pricing, I'm surprised MTH isn't eating their lunch and then some!    In the Lionel world, we can spend the same money and get an 0-8-0 switcher that may have a slow-speed performance issue plus 3 modest freight cars and a caboose.    Or for $100 more, we can get a Vision Line GG-1 with no cars.   

I guess folks have money burning a hole through their pocket for Lionel stuff these days, 'cause it sounded like Nicholas Smith Trains took pre-orders for a ton of Vision Line GG-1's at $1200/each.  

David

sinclair posted:

As for MUing the Heisler, I got one and wanted to find a Legacy Shay to MU it with.  But now that it's outed as a BEMF I know I can't do that which makes me sad.  ...

Perhaps the "experts" here can comment on this observation.  It appears BEMF -- especially as it's implemented on the Heislers -- isn't a death-sentence in and of itself for good slow-speed performance after all.  I went back and looked at SandJam's video posted this past summer again, and it appears the slow-speed performance of the Heisler hauling a train of log cars is quite acceptable (to me, anyway).  Perhaps that's due to the gearing of the locomotive.  So while the Heislers were admittedly well into the price-gouging territory that is so common with new Lionel premium products, most Heisler owners should be happy -- assuming they get past the price-point.

I suspect there's no problem double- or triple-heading these Legacy Heislers, since they're locomotives with the exact same physical gearing and BEMF electronics.  And if that's the case, that's even more encouraging for logging enthusiasts -- unless, of course, you had plans to MU the Heisler with a non-BEMF based logging loco like the Legacy Shay.

Jon, can you comment/confirm my thoughts/observations?  Thanks!!!

David

Same engine, same electronics, I'd be amazed if they couldn't by mu'ed. Hey! A good reason to buy several of the same kind of BEMF engines!

SantaFeFan posted:

Folks, I am monitoring the forum closely on this topic and trying to help where possible.  I can clear up a few things relative to the products with the BEMF technology.   Please note that aside from not having the Legacy compliant speed table, the locomotives have every other Legacy feature, including the 200 speed step support.

The Heisler that was cataloged in 2015 was the first O Scale engine to use the BEMC Legacy electronics. This was due to the fact that the standard RCMC simply would not fit in such a small engine.  Lionel felt it was acceptable as the gearing in the Heisler drive train naturally prevents the engine from being in a lash-up with other Legacy engines.

The new 0-8-0 switchers and the LionMaster Class A engines are the only other two engines to have the BEMC electronics.  In the case of the 0-8-0, there was no physical room for the RCMC, and the outdated modular Legacy electronics could not be reused.

We want to confirm to our customers that moving forward, there are currently no plans to use the BEMC in any more O Gauge locomotives. The NW2 has been designed to use the RCMC and will perform similar to the S2 that was released a couple of years ago.  If a special case does occur where we need to use the BEMC, it will be explicitly stated in the catalog.

What seems puzzling is how did you fit the Legacy board that would not fit in the 0-8-0 into the Mogul?     That aside, even though the 0-8-0 won't MU with a Legacy engine, its still a well detailed great looking model.   Could be the only Lionel steam outside of a early JLC that features a fully enclosed boiler.  It's detailed on the underside, not the usual cracked egg design...

Joe

Thank you Jon for replying and letting us know you are listening!

I know I'll be happy with my ATSF Class A even if I can't run it with another Legacy locomotive.  The videos of it show it's a great looking and sounding locomotive, and as one who runs on O36 I am grateful for it.

As for the Heisler, I did want to MU it with a Shay (I need to find one or wait for Lionel to release it.), like you see in videos (And I'm waiting for Lionel to do a Climax too as I can have all 3 loggers.).  But it sure does run slow.  I haven't ever tried to run it with any of my other Legacy locomotives, as just assumed (Yes I know.) it'd speed up like my B6sb does, but it makes sense that it won't due to gearing.

In the end, now that I know this about these locomotives, I can go enjoy them and not get flustered when they don't function as I was expecting, being I was expecting incorrectly and didn't know it.

So Jon, its been established that these engines may not lash up well with other Legacy engines but how do they match up with engines using your TMCC ERR Cruise boards?

Pete

sinclair posted:

 I can go enjoy them and not get flustered when they don't function as I was expecting, being I was expecting incorrectly and didn't know it.

Sinclair!  Please contact me should you be in the market in the future for ANY big ticket items, ie appliances, furniture, trains etc.

I would be happy make them for you. 

Norton posted:

So Jon, its been established that these engines may not lash up well with other Legacy engines but how do they match up with engines using your TMCC ERR Cruise boards?

Pete

The BEMF style of servo control only lashes up two locos with an exact wheel diameter and gear ratio.  Therefore 2 of the BEMF controlled 0-8-0 locos will lash up fine.  For example:  a diesel loco and a steamer loco will undoubtedly not lash up properly together. 

The BEMF servo does not take into account the gear ratios and wheel diameters - it only keeps the motor at a steady speed.  When we have a motor encoder, you can translate ticks of the encoder to rotations of the driver wheels; and therefore adjust the motor speed with respect to the track speed; which you need to have matching track speeds to lash up dissimilar locos.

While I earlier stated I'd never purchase one of these units, I would if it was in a Heisler or a unit where I know I'd never MU them.  In that case I couldn't see a reason not to.  I would have to get used to the different speed curve but I think that is possible.  I would have to know it was the setup before purchasing though.

I found a video of one of them in action.  It's at 0:13 of the video:

Does anyone plan to show more videos?

It's been a year, and no one's posted a video yet.