Has anyone upgraded a Lionel GP38 with the motor truck from a Lionel GP9 with TMCC

If you're talking about the older Pulmore motors, they won't fit in the rear of the GP38.

GRJ,

I appreciate the information.  Do you know if the Lionel GP38 with can motors in the truck can be removed and a pullmor motor installed?  Do I need to cut out a motor key?

You would most certainly have to replace the motor and the truck, the worm on the Pullmor is totally different than the worm on the can motor.  I strongly suspect the cutout is also different, but I don't have one to actually look at, so I can't say how much.

Why would you be going from a can motor to the Pullmor?

I was under the impression that in the truck can motors are poor pullers.

I missed "in the truck".  If you're referring to the ones mounted horizontally in the truck, those are unique trucks and certainly could not be replaced easily by any other type.  The mount is totally different from the vertical "China drive" trucks/motors or the Pullmore motor mounts.

@Windy City posted:

I was under the impression that in the truck can motors are poor pullers.

That depends what they are being compared to. Compared to other traditional style Lionel GPs, there is not much difference: none of the GPs are stump pullers.  I would not go through the trouble of subbing in a Pullmor power truck for the sake of extra pulling power. You may gain a little, but only a little.

I imagine you could add TMCC to the engine as it is, though I'll leave that discussion to those more knowledgeable.

Any engine with only a front mounted motor and a dummy rear truck isn't going to be a great puller.  I had the same issue with the Lionel Phantom, and the fix was to add a rear motor: Improving the Lionel Phantom Locomotive

Note that it already had a Pullmor in front, but the issue with only a front motor is traction more than motor power.  I added weight to the front and that had minimal impact, but adding the rear motor was like night and day.

Nothing stopping you from adding TMCC to the engine as it is.

@nickaix posted:

That depends what they are being compared to. Compared to other traditional style Lionel GPs, there is not much difference: none of the GPs are stump pullers.  I would not go through the trouble of subbing in a Pullmor power truck for the sake of extra pulling power. You may gain a little, but only a little.

I imagine you could add TMCC to the engine as it is, though I'll leave that discussion to those more knowledgeable.

". . . none of the GPs are stump pullers." Really? I have a Lionel Union Pacific GP7, one of the earliest Legacy locomotives and a Lionel Legacy GP30 from a few years later. Both have vertical can motors and will pull a dummy F7B, an F7A, and 7 aluminum passenger cars without a whimper. The GP7 has slightly less power that the newer GP30. In fact, if I ran the passenger train with the GP30 on the point at full throttle, it would leave the track. Must be the turbocharger that makes the difference.

Both of these along with my other diesels are just 4-axle locomotives with 2 powered trucks. But they are all powered by vertical can motors. I think today, it's hard to beat the modern vertical can motor for pulling power. With that being said, I don't know why anyone would want to revert back to the more Neanderthal Pullmor motors. Today's vertical cans are smaller, lighter, better responsive at the slower speeds, and just easier to work with in my opinion.

@Yellowstone Special posted:

". . . none of the GPs are stump pullers." Really? I have a Lionel Union Pacific GP7, one of the earliest Legacy locomotives and a Lionel Legacy GP30 from a few years later. Both have vertical can motors and will pull a dummy F7B, an F7A, and 7 aluminum passenger cars without a whimper. The GP7 has slightly less power that the newer GP30. In fact, if I ran the passenger train with the GP30 on the point at full throttle, it would leave the track. Must be the turbocharger that makes the difference.

True, I should have been more specific.  I was talking about the Pullmor motored models with a single motor, and the limited number of can motored models, also with a single motor.

The primary issue facing any dual motored locomotive with all wheels powered is weight on the wheels and if they have traction tires.  Any of the Legacy models have dual motors, I have a few of those as well, no problem with pulling power.  I will say, the modern GP9 with dual motors and traction tires is no match for any of my big articulated steam with a single motor.  Below is an example with my C&O Mallet with a single motor.

I tried pulling this train with a Legacy GP9, it was an epic fail, stalled halfway up the grade.  The Mallet didn't miss a beat going up the grade, weight really helps.

Well, that is absolutely amazing, John! Your single-motored Mallet certainly IS a stump puller. And that’s an amazing collection of tank cars you have, old and new. I got a kick out of the “vapor” coming from the United States Liquid Oxygen car.

I guess layouts and what our locomotives can do on them are all relative to the operators. On my much smaller 88 sq. ft. level layout with no grades, my GPs are stump pullers to me. But your Mallet pulling 54 cars up a grade over your acres of layout is the real stump puller and a true marvel.

Thanks for showing us what’s what. 😉

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

True, I should have been more specific.  I was talking about the Pullmor motored models with a single motor, and the limited number of can motored models, also with a single motor.

The primary issue facing any dual motored locomotive with all wheels powered is weight on the wheels and if they have traction tires.  Any of the Legacy models have dual motors, I have a few of those as well, no problem with pulling power.  I will say, the modern GP9 with dual motors and traction tires is no match for any of my big articulated steam with a single motor.  Below is an example with my C&O Mallet with a single motor.

I tried pulling this train with a Legacy GP9, it was an epic fail, stalled halfway up the grade.  The Mallet didn't miss a beat going up the grade, weight really helps.

By the way John, if you MUed 2 Legacy GP9s, I imagine they could do it, couldn’t they? 🤔

@Yellowstone Special posted:

Well, that is absolutely amazing, John! Your single-motored Mallet certainly IS a stump puller. And that’s an amazing collection of tank cars you have, old and new. I got a kick out of the “vapor” coming from the United States Liquid Oxygen car.

I have a couple of the MTH smoking tank cars, they're a fun addition.  I added remote control to them so I can turn off the smoke without chasing the car down.

@Yellowstone Special posted:

By the way John, if you MUed 2 Legacy GP9s, I imagine they could do it, couldn’t they? 🤔

They probably would, but I decided to just go for some single locomotive power.

I had to MU some smaller steam for even fewer cars.   The single 0-6-0 couldn't make this grade either, so I broke out it's twin, and got the freight run through.

Interestingly enough, it probably depends on which diesel you use.  I have a pair of Legacy U-Boats that pulled 115 cars on Harry's layout, and we have grades there as well.  I stuck one in the middle to reduce the strain on the couplers.

What about upgrading the horizontal motors in the MPC era GP-7 8375 or GP-20 8776?  Wouldn't pullmor motors with diecast trucks and magnatraction be a significant improvement?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I have a couple of the MTH smoking tank cars, they're a fun addition.  I added remote control to them so I can turn off the smoke without chasing the car down.

They probably would, but I decided to just go for some single locomotive power.

I had to MU some smaller steam for even fewer cars.   The single 0-6-0 couldn't make this grade either, so I broke out it's twin, and got the freight run through.

Interestingly enough, it probably depends on which diesel you use.  I have a pair of Legacy U-Boats that pulled 115 cars on Harry's layout, and we have grades there as well.  I stuck one in the middle to reduce the strain on the couplers.

Wow, two more amazing videos. When you think about it, your single-motored Mallet with two sets of drivers pulling 54 tank cars up a grade seems to put an awful lot of strain on that one motor. But, it made it. 👍

I pulled over 70 cars with the Vision Line Big Boy at Harry's place, it had no issues cruising around the layout with the load.  The big steam with a 13-14 pound locomotive has surprising tractive force.  The VL-BB has the nice big Pittman motor, and I'm busy replacing the crappy Canon motor with the Pittman in a few of my other steamers.

@Windy City posted:

What about upgrading the horizontal motors in the MPC era GP-7 8375 or GP-20 8776?  Wouldn't pullmor motors with diecast trucks and magnatraction be a significant improvement?

You can't simply upgrade the motors, you'd have to replace the entire truck.  After you do all the carving on the frame to make the Pullmor trucks fit, you'd be far better of just buying a different engine.  Also, the Pullmor motor won't fit in the rear, the body is too narrow.  I don't see any way this is a cost effective upgrade.  Also, I vastly prefer the can motors since I can have cruise control with them.

Richard,

A Lionel starter-type GP-38 will NOT fit a Pullmor motor from a TMCC Geep.

Going further, it would probably help to state what you're trying to accomplish overall.

Changing motor styles/specs among Lionel products is not something to be taken lightly. Generally speaking, you'll need to take into consideration available space, mounting methods, control methods, etc. before attempting anything. And then do you have the equipment, expertise and parts to continue?

Motor swaps can certainly be done (check out what @harmonyards does with Pullmor-motored Hudsons), but when taken into consideration, it's usually much more practical to purchase a locomotive with the features you require already included, if such a beast is out there.

As an example, judging from the two numbers you quoted (8375 and 8776), you might be a C&NW guy. Have you checked out the 6-28517? It's a Pullmor-motored GP-7 with TMCC and RailSounds from the early 2000s. The 8375 and 8776 each have different drive systems versus the 6-28517, so if you have those other two locos, you should be able to make an informed decision of which one best meets the operating criteria you've established.

TRW

I'm not sure why so hard over on the single Pullmor motor, the later models with two vertical can motors would easily outperform the single motored Pullmor motor model.

I appreciate the comments and suggestions.

@Windy City posted:

What about upgrading the horizontal motors in the MPC era GP-7 8375 or GP-20 8776?  Wouldn't pullmor motors with diecast trucks and magnatraction be a significant improvement?

No. As John said, the GPs just don't weigh enough. Magnetraction helps a little, but having all axles powered is a huge advantage, which you can only get with can motors, whether of the horizontal or vertical variety. And then you add traction tires. (I say this as a Pullmor-lover.)