Has the Lionel 57' Mechanical Reefers been cancelled?

Not on 10/10/2014 shipping schedule.

Maybe ready to ship?

AF facebook page indicates a December/January delivery

 

Roger

Why did you think they were cancelled?

 

Frank....unrelated but,,no sign of FEC at GE yet..im watchin !!!conrail john

Precisely.  No normal person thinks that way.  And it's bass-ackwards thinking like that which makes me wonder if Lionel even has a clue what's being shipped each month -- not to mention what's being manufactured next.    I'm convinced they don't.  And that's pretty sad. 

 

Case in point...  My current favorite item I'm tracking on the shipping schedule is an O-Gauge item:  6-27092 CSX Heritage 60' Boxcar.  It's as old as time, still hasn't been delivered, and the shipping schedule indicates July 2014 even though it's now October 10th.  What does that mean?      I can only conclude that nobody at Lionel has a clue if/when that item will ever be produced. 

 

Staggers the mind. 

 

David

Several items on the list are marked as shipped with the month listed. The S gauge 57' reefers were listed a few days ago and are now missing. One of the minions probably attempted an update and mistakenly deleted a page.

Seriously, I doubt something that's been headlining on the Lionel Blog since September 12th has been cancelled.

 

"Lionel’s upcoming American Flyer PFE reefer represents a car following the split of the company with SPFE markings and a Perishable Fruit Express logo over the UP shield."

 

Rusty

Unless things have changed -- and just about ANY change would be welcome regarding how the online shipping schedule is managed  -- items so marked are either part of a split shipment, or they are produced on an ongoing basis (i.e., track, transformers, basic sets, etc...).  In either case, the fact that the product is still listed is intended to imply that another production run is on the way.  Exactly when is anybody's guess.

 

David

Maybe a display of soon to be delivered Flyer at York will answer the question.  

 

Ben 

They actually updated the Flyer Facebook page? 

 

Wow.

 

I gave up checking in on it when the latest update, the Christmas holiday greeting, was still getting top billing after Easter.

 

Rusty

Hi Rusty,

 

     I have been reading what has being said about the 57' Mechanical Refrigerator cars and have became frustrated so I asked Lionel. I received a notification that the cars have been pulled and will not be made. So everyone can save their money.

Donald Payer

 

 

Well that is not a good sign.  It would be nice to have an explanation.

Which seems pretty odd being that they've been headlining the Lionel blog for the past 4 weeks.

 

The trouble with Lionel's "talk to us" is you seldom get the same answer twice.  Everyone there seems to be in their own silo.

 

If the reefers are cancelled, well then more money available from me for MTH, SSA and AM.

 

Rusty

In S Gauge American Flyer? Or O Gauge?

Just a reminder to everyone... This is the S-Scale Trains sub-forum, so the comment about cancellation of 57' mech. reefers is likely refrerring to Lionel's S-gauge product.  The American Flyer 2014 catalog had 5 of these cars catalog'd.

 

The last of the O-Gauge 57' mechanical reefers were cataloged in 2012 vol 1, and all 3 roadnames were delivered a while ago.

 

David

Well, the 57' mechanical reefers are no longer on the shipping schedule.

 

That means one of two things:

1: Shipped

2: Cancelled

 

Take your pick.

 

Rusty

 

Perhaps the demand for "modern style" cars is not as great as some may have anticipated? Most of the newer modern diesels are still in the blowout mode.

Considering the prototypes of these cars began cropping up in the late 1960's-early 1970's, they're hardly "modern" anymore.

 

But there are a still bunch of S gaugers out there that this type of car is outside their "comfort zone."  SHS made a conscious decision back in the early days to make cars visually compatible (meaning car height and length) with Gilbert Flyer.

 

But still, if the 57' mech reefers are indeed cancelled, it's a sad day for S.  I suppose it's instructive that Lionel didn't have any mention of them in their York presentation.

 

Rusty

Hi Rusty,

 

I am just clarifying my note to you. The information I asked Lionel about was I wanted to know what happened to the 57' Mechanical Refrigerator Cars from the American Flyer S Gauge 2014 catalog on the shipping schedule? The numbers were 6-48858 --- 6-48861 +plus 6-48868. That included all of the Refers to be made because I had ordered 1 each for my 5 SD70ACe's. So I wrote Email back saying I was disappointed and I would find them some place else. At least I won't be spending it with Lionel.

 

Donald Payer 

Just looked at the AF facebook page.  Lionel has confirmed the cancellation of the 57' reefer.  If it is due to a lack of preorders perhaps it is due to the poor communication and performance of the cylindrical hoppers.  If so, shame on Lionel.

 

Roger

I was the one who posted the question on the flyer facebook page, it would be nice to have a reason for the cancelation. If it is due to low pre-order numbers I wonder if it's because of the failed performance in the cylindrical hopper trucks. 

 

Lionel is really going to be leaving us out in the wind if they don't produce modern rolling stock to go with these modern diesels they are putting out.  I will be at trainfest and will try and ask what the deal is with the reefers at the lionel booth. 

 

I hope that mth gets all the shs product up and running soon.  

 

Ben

 In order for S scale to survive (much less expand), it needs suppliers who can deliver their products in a manner that the buyer base can rely on. All this "BS" due to late or non deliveries, to say nothing of the QC problems we've seen,does not bode well for the scale.

 The sad thing is,a great many people who might have otherwise "joined the ranks",(in no small part due to S being the "perfect size'), will no doubt look elsewhere, if they haven't already.

 We've also seen a fair number of the faithful "jumping ship",and going to a scale where they can actually purchase stuff,due to these same issues.

 I find this all very disturbing.

 

Mark in Oregon

Well, I guess Lionel's response makes it pretty much official then. 

 

This strengthens my suspicion that the next run of ES44's is just to use up parts stock.  They were listed as "Limited Quantities Produced."

 

Pity.  This appears to be retrenchment to probably stick to the "traditional" market.  I'm not gonna hold my breath for a Legacy Berkshire.

 

Oh, well.  I can divert to money I set aside for the reefers to AM, SSA or MTH.

 

Personal perspective: Lionel did good with the Pacific's, Mikado's, Challengers and U33's.  Hit a home run with the SD70's and ES44's.  Did really good with the Y3's.  Fine locomotives all, a boon to the Flyer market, even if only a couple can be easily scalified.  They did pretty good with the cylindrical hopper bodies, but fell flat on their face with the trucks. 

 

It was fun while it lasted.

 

Rusty

 

 

 

 

An official announcement is coming, but unfortunately the native drums and smoke signals are correct ... the mechanical reefers are to be canceled.

 

I did my part ... I preordered three. 

 

Bob

 

As did I.

 

Oh, well.  Time to move on.

 

Rusty

These came with scale wheel sets.  I didn't order any beacuse I would have had to pay an extra $25 to get high rail wheel sets I would then have to install.  I hope they see the scale wheel guys are too small a market and reissue these with high rail wheels.  Then I would order several. 

I thought it was announced after the catalog was printed that everything after the first run of cylindrical hoppers was going to come with Hirail/Flyer wheels.

 

Rusty

 

Now waitaminute...

 

If the mechanical reefers were cancelled because of the truck snafu on the cylindrical hoppers, it's not the Scale guys (or even the Flyer guys who had trouble) fault because the cars wouldn't track properly.

 

It was an engineering design problem with the trucks.  Period. 

 

It's not the customer's fault the wheels wouldn't roll on scale or certain brands of hirail track.  Once regauged, the trucks roll fine on scale track.  Of course, the hopper still sits too high.  Another engineering design problem.

 

The corporate solution for the issue was apparently replacing the coupler.  A total side-step of the problem.

 

Lionel certainly knows how to make a proper scale wheel.  They did it for the U33's, SD70's and ES44's.  In fact, they bent over backwards to make the SD70's and ES44's attractive to the scale crowd.  How they managed to screw up something as simple as a freight car truck is anybody's guess.

 

Now myself and others cut Lionel a fair amount of slack on this first attempt at a modern freight car.  There were relatively inexpensive ways (at least cheaper that using Lionel parts) to solve the problem for those willing to try. 

 

For others, it was a big deal.  And it seems they have gotten their way.

 

Regardless, S Gauge/Scale has lost. 

 

For the scale guys at least, Smoky Mountain Models is reconsidering restarting their 57' mechanical reefer project.   It is guaranteed to be superior to the proposed Flyer version, but will also have to be built, painted, decaled by the modeler and subsequently cost more than the Flyer car.

 

I'm certainly willing to give any future scale detailed Flyer cars a look, even if I do have to change the trucks.  But I won't approach it with the same enthusiasm I had in the past.

 

Now, where's my American Models catalog....

 

Rusty

 

Bob

Will this announcement have some sort of explanation about the cancelation? Or is this just going to be a "ya it's canceled". 

This flys in the face of all the "commitment" talk Lionel has made lately about the venture into scale rolling stock.  If this is just a delay to maybe be re cataloged with the accurate description about high rail wheel sets that's fine, if this is a total bail on the commitment to the scale modern marketplace that Lionel has gotten people committed to (money from the pocket book) with sd70s and ES44s then this is a real issue. 

Ben

Inaccurate catalog descriptions (or illustrations) never stopped them before.  My gray Challenger doesn't have the catalog described oil bunker or crew figures...

 

Rusty

Rusty

True story...but your oil or coal tender will work no matter what shows up...everyone out there equates Lionel's scale 70 ton truck with inoperable on any track system.  That might have had an impact on pre orders.  I think if you look back through the sea of posts on here about the cylindrical hopper fiasco there were people who stated they were going to wait to see what the fix was going to be before they would look at the 57' reefers. 

If the reefers don't get made then that's the way it is...is it a sign of things to come (or lack there off) is the question I have.  An answer from Lionel about why the car was killed could help with an understanding of what may be going on behind the scenes.

I don't disagree.  There is a difference between some cosmetic faux pas and crappy engineering.  My Challenger still runs and is pretty much visually acceptable.  Lionel did offer to buy it back from me when I complained.  I've regauged my trucks, but there's no easy fix for the bolster height.

 

There was absolutely no reason for the hopper's truck turning out the way they did and it probably did have a chilling effect on pre-orders.  There was a lot of pre-emptive criticism about the reefers on Yahoo S Scale board and there's probably one or two dancing a jig about the cancellation.

 

I still fail to understand how Lionel can't seem to grasp a simple concept that works so well for American Models, S Scale America and the late S Helper Service.  One wonders where Lionel get's it's information from. 

 

Fortunately, it appears the MTH has chosen not to reinvent the S wheel...

 

Rusty

 

 

Ben,

 

I have been informed by Matt Ashba via an e-mail reply that an announcement is coming. Upon its release, we will find out its wording and content together.

 

I, too, am rather surprised by this turn of events. No preproduction samples were on display this past York, but it would not have been the first time that a project had slipped in its timing. Presumably, preorders are on the weak side, so ...

 

Bob

Good Evening,

 

I sent the email below to a friend at Lionel this afternoon.

 

 

I am trying to interpret the news about the cancellation of the mechanical hoppers. There may be two widely divergent ways to read the news, with a lot of room in the spectrum between them.

 

Worst case: Lionel cancelled the project because there were too few pre-orders. They blamed customers because of their “lack of interest.” However, too few preorders may be due to Lionel’s own mistakes. Their catalogues have been inaccurate and misleading (outright mistakes such as lack of Challenger figures or oil tenders, wrong engine numbers displayed on original SD70s, and repeated mention of a non-existent “AF speed control switch." Product quality has been erratic (the original U30C and SD70 trucks lost electrical contact on certain switches; cylindrical hopper wheels derail [“fixed” by changing a coupler?] and sit on bolsters that are unprototypically high). If Lionel cancelled the project one month before delivery, then manufacturing did little to produce the reefers, and Lionel failed to let customers know until the last minute, or Lionel has delayed delivery for a good reason—and is still failing to explain why.

 

Best case: 1) Lionel has decided to redesign a common truck bolster for both a more prototypical cylindrical hopper and mechanical reefer that will also allow consumers to easily swap high-rail wheels for optional scale wheels; 2) the redesign has taken longer to achieve than expected. The “limited quantities” of BNSF, CSX, and UP ES44AC locomotives may mean that these numbers are using up the shells with headlights above the windows. The 2015 models of both ES44 and SD70 locomotives will have the more common light-in-the-nose configuration.

 

In either case, reliance on pre-orders is not likely to change for valid business reasons. That leaves the problems Lionel needs to fix as: 1) as Frank Swafford suggests, better and more frequent communication with customers, including uniform information within the company itself; 2) more attention to accuracy within the catalogues in order to encourage pre-order confidence; and 3) fixing engineering idiosyncrasies to match the quality level of a much smaller company such as American Models. (Perhaps Lionel should put Ron Bashista on retainer as a consultant for the American Flyer line.)

 

The American Flyer products Lionel has brought to market in the past few years have been superb in terms of detail and finish. The company has been quick to improve each new release (refined trucks, AC/DC/DCC modes in locomotives; the hoppers were an aberration). It would be a shame for them to back off American Flyer when the fixes required are much easier than the hurdles they have already successfully managed to jump.