Has the Lionel 57' Mechanical Reefers been cancelled?

I suspect the truth lies somewhere in between.  I'll be interested in the "official" reason if presented. 

 

But, if the reefers were cancelled because of a truck redesign, one would almost expect the next run of hoppers to be likewise cancelled.

 

Redesigning the trucks shouldn't take that long, it's not rocket science.  There's two pieces of stamped metal that are the reason for the hoppers riding too high.  Wheel gauge can be corrected with a new spec for the axle spacer. 

 

Unless their mechanical engineers are so backed up, sparing time on such a small segment of the customer base isn't a priority.

 

Probably half of the complaints would have not existed if the hopper's trucks came with Flyer wheelsets.  In my case, I still would have bought the car and simply changed the trucks.

 

Still, communication with the customer base is the key issue.  Since the new management took over, there's been a notable drop in public communication from Lionel on the forums in general.

 

There was only a brief acknowledgement about the truck issue at the spring York presentation.

 

Rusty

I'm going to the LCCA open house at Lionel in Concord this weekend.  I'll try to get some info on this and pass it along.

Nick C.

Nick, would you please ask them when the new run of ES44s are coming?  CP in particular, thanks!

I will also hit them up at trainfest on Saturday in Milwaukee and see what answers I can get.  I also have the CP units on order.  

 

Ben 

Do you need me to send my 5'1" wife up there to open a can??

Cant hurt!

Hopefully they are doing a redesign. It's not cool to let their customers hang in the wind and speculate though.

 

Despite what they say publically IMHO Lionel seems to be backing way off of S. That's really too bad. I was very excited a few years ago, but I guess it just isn't to be.

Well,  back from the LCCA event this evening.  Had a great time, and even though there was way more orange/blue boxes than blue/yellow ones I managed to totally blow my planned limit out of the water.

There were 3 of our club members there and we managed to get Mike Reagan all to ourselves for several minutes.  This was no small feat as the place was a total madhouse.

I asked him about the reefer cancellation....  The decision was purely an economic one.  Most troublingly he said that S sales have underperformed.  The cost to tool the long body turned out to be prohibitive in light of the expected sales, or when compared to a 40' car (2 body cavities vs. 1 in the same size mold, multiply out the molding machine cycles, etc...).  So no money was invested.  There was no tool made, hence no product samples to show.  This logic explains why we got newly tooled mint cars.  He also said that that same $$ could be put into virtually any tooling for O27/O gauge product and the payback is greater because that market is an order of magnitude larger than ours. 

The sales for the cylindrical hoppers must not have been what they wanted to see to justify another new tool aimed at the same market.   Of course... I know everyone's thinking it so I'll say it first... If they hadn't totally choked on the trucks and the running quality of the car they probably would have seen better sales.  They had a stack of DL&W ones there for 15 bucks a pop so I'll be seeing those problems for the first time myself... Or not, as there's a stack of AM trucks on the bench awaiting assignments.

As an S gauger I'm pained to hear this kind of stuff but as I make my living in the manufacturing world the analytical side of me totally understands where the big L is coming from.  For us it's a passion and an enjoyment.... For them it's a business. 

I think they really need to develop another way to gauge interest in a product besides creating snazzy CG pics in a catalog as if it's all but assured to hit the market.  Mr. Reagan... If you're reading this, the bald guy with the cartful of Flyer you spoke with tonight humbly suggests that you don't print pictures in a catalog until you've started cutting steel for tooling. 

Expanding this thought out a bit,  with S Helper's tooling now in the hands of MTH the same calculus applies.  Do they make investments in all-new product for S or put the same money into the much larger O or much much larger HO market?  Other members of our club have spoken with the MTH folks and they have been happy with their sales in S.  Time will tell if this will equal all-new product or just new road names and paint schemes on existing product.

American Models,  Des Plaines Hobbies.... There may be a gap in the market for you to exploit. 

As for me, I'm way too committed to shift scales.  And the underdog nature of S is one of the things that attracted me to it in the first place.  It's still a great place to be. 

John,  my apologies... I totally forgot to ask about the ES44s.  Sorry.

Cheers to all,

Nick C.

That's really too bad. It confirms what I suspected though. Makes you wonder what they might put in the next catalog?

Nick, thanks for the information.

 

This is one of the reasons I keep spouting off that Lionel (and MTH) need to get out of the York bubble and actually talk directly to S Gaugers and Scalers where they gather: Spree's, Fests and NASG conventions.  Not everyone goes to York and it skews the perception of the market for S.

 

Granted, by comparison they're small gatherings, but they also don't have to bring a huge display with them.  Back in 2002, they came with a handful of samples to NASG and some test shots of the then new Mikado.  Their representatives talked and listened.  If I recall correctly, they even had a poll to fill out.  It appeared a positive change was coming with greater variety in both traditional and the potential for scale cars.  But then of course, there was a management change and it all pretty much flew out the window.

 

There was also a management change at Lionel again recently.  Truck fiasco aside, that may also be part of the reason for increased risk aversion.

 

Plus, the NS series was too much for the much smaller S market to absorb and I'm not quite sure that S folks in general are that enamored with all the Heritage stuff as the O Gaugers are.  Plus with the NS fantasy cylindrical hoppers, you had a relatively expensive cars in non-existent paint schemes that have mechanical issues.  Mechanical issues that Lionel has never satisfactorily addressed.

 

So, it appears in Lionel's mindset, the customer is at fault for their misreading of the market and their product problems.  (But, there's trouble in paradise on the O side. There's a lot of complaints about the O gauge California Zephyr cars and they're beginning to sound like us S gaugers complaining about the hopper's trucks...)

 

I expect we're going to see the scalized Flyer stuff fade away into obscurity once the tooling costs are recovered.  No changes to the trucks other than mounting Flyer wheelsets, no lower headlights in the SD70's and ES44's, no new steam locomotives of the Y3's stature.

 

As I said before, it was fun while it lasted.

 

As far as MTH, they seem to have a little better handle on the S situation, but barely.  The real test will be the F3's.  Otherwise, there's probably 60% of the old SHS line yet to be produced, so we won't see anything new until after the remainder of product line has been run.

 

I'm a bit surprised AM hasn't taken advantage of the S drought.  There may be a resource issue there, but at least there's some refreshing of the line coming. 

 

SSA seems to be heading off into the flat kit direction with their X29 and Fowler boxcars and the upcoming HC30 hopper.  Last report is the final parts for the SSA SD45 have been tooled, so that project may be finally seeing the light of day in the near future. (I hope)  But it's not going to be an inexpensive locomotive and will likely be available DC/DCC only.

 

Rusty

>>  he said that S sales have underperformed 

 

Did he offer any explanation of WHY the sales underperformed?  Fantasy paint schemes, bad wheels, frequent derailments, few S guys in the modern era, fantasy cars, no complete track system, poor-to-non-existent communication (scale wheels, DCC), assumption that S guys are just like O guys, minimal advertising outside of the catalog, no attendance at S-oriented train shows, etc., etc.

 

In spite of all these self-imposed wounds, the S market is significantly smaller than the O market.  Cannot deny that.  But that was known well ahead of time.  The expectation of equal or better sales volume compared to O was unrealistic from the outset.  If maximum potential sales volume was the goal, Lionel should be making HO.

 

Blame Lionel?  Blame ourselves?  Blame the catalog?  Blame all of the above?  Need some context......

 

Lionel has sometimes cancelled cars without sufficient pre-orders -- even in O gauge.  This is nothing new.  Cancellation of one waffle-sided box car is not surprising given all the negative comments based on the appearance of the catalog illustration.  Is it significant for the future of S?  Maybe Rusty is a bit pessimistic?  Maybe he can see the future better than the rest of us?

 

As I have been saying for decades:  "If you want something in S, buy it as soon as it is announced because it might not be available 12 months later."  Good advice then and still good advice now.

 

Perhaps I should just go run some trains and enjoy the hobby as it exists.  The world will continue to turn one way or another.  The future will take care of itself without frustration on my part.

 

Cheers...Ed L.

Pre-orders must be how they gauge interest in a proposed model. I ordered all the mechanical reefers. Unless there were fantasy schemes, then I didn't order those. As I ordered and bought all the non-fantasy cylindrical hoppers. Even though they need their trucks replaced. 

Asking if others own these products, and their opinions on them, do not get models to market. Order them. Vote with your wallet. S is a strange beastie. Our market doesn't behave like other scales.

Order what appeals to you when it is announced. See something you like? Buy it now. These words are so true. You can't count on product being around down the road. We're all disappointed the mechanical reefers were scrubbed. It is understandable some were shy because of the truck atrocity of the covered hopper.

If the hoppers had hi-rail wheels, and sat lower, they would have been far more palatable. Give me Kadee couple pads, and I'll change the wheels/trucks myself. It would be nice to be able to take a product out of it's box and run it on a highrail layout, loop, or test track. 

The lack of co-ordination there still boggles my mind.

Lionel had so many home-runs lately. The Y-3s, the SD-70s, ES44Cs, and offerings like that are the future. (But please make the dies flexible like the U33Cs)

Heck I still love all my 2-8-2s, 4-6-2s, Challengers, and U33Cs.

I look forward to the Polar Express and the C&O Berk sets I ordered.

 

We need to move beyond the "Hoppergate" scandal.

I think that is the key right there Ed. If you have been around and can enjoy what has already been made then anything new is icing on the cake. For those of us trying to get started the lack of new products is much more of a hindrance. My advice is to look around at was has been done to date. If that is enough to satisfy you then S is a great place to be. If you long for something that hasn't been made, then I would look at a different scale.

 

I think the new management team seems to have a totally different view on S than the old regime. One almost has to wonder if they thought they could make more profit from Christmas ornaments, Lionel brand merchandising, and Nascar collectables whether we would ever see another train....   A little extreme I know, but you get the point.

 

I'm tired of trying to swim upstream personally. I like technology and there are a lot of models (not just engines) that have never been done in S that I want. I really hope it turns around someday, but this doesn't seem like a good sign of things to come. At least from Lionel.

 

I still think 3D printing can be the savior for scales like S though. Time will tell.

Ed, Lionel has never really succeeded in HO.  It's another market they fail to understand.  It seems the boys at the old Circle L Ranch are beginning to try to rely more on branding rather than getting things right, or at least, close enough.

 

Pessimistic?  Yah, I've have to say my initial optimism has taken a beating lately.  I'm growing weary of defending Lionel/flyer to my peers in the course of events over the past year.

 

I have no crystal ball, just calling things as I see them developing and also taking into account some of the boners going on with the O gauge lineup.

 

I hope Lionel does some real research on how the S market actually works, rather than trying to simply apply O Gauge sensibilities to S.  They do have a bunch of stuff in O that S could use.  But again, they need to get out into the S world, walk and talk among us and not rely on filters or rOse colored spectacles.

 

I never expected the Flyer line to go full scale, but Lionel has made some good attempts at adding some excitement to the line, both traditionally and hirail/scale.  But they seem to have lessening interest in duplicating what's worked for practically two decades and more in trying to mold the market into their own image.

 

Rusty

>> One almost has to wonder if they thought they could make more profit from Christmas ornaments, Lionel brand merchandising, and Nascar collectables whether we would ever see another train.... 

 

For what it is worth, I have been told that Lionel is making tons of profit from the NASCAR relationship.  (Look where the new Lionel corporate HQ is located.)  Apparently, racing cars mounted on flat cars helps sell both product lines.  Ornaments, T-shirts, illuminated signs/billboards, etc. are probably done with a royalty arrangement without any need for tooling investment by Lionel.  Not a bad way to go actually.

 

Still ---  it would be nice to see some new trains in S.

 

Longingly.....Ed L.

I will make it to trainfest tomorrow and try to get the same answers all over again. I think that Lionel needs to hear our disappointment, even though it will not change the outcome. 

 

I do not understand how Lionel can look at the issues surrounding the cylindrical hoppers and then just chalk up the lack of pre sales on the reefers to lack of interest.  How can the desire/justification be there for modern locos, but nothing to pull behind them?  

 

I don't know what kind of answers I will be able to get from Matt A. at the Lionel booth tomorrow but I am going to try.  Lionel needs to realize that we (S gaugers) don't have another 155 pages of a catalog to fall back on when they cancel an item on page 156.  

 

If they (Lionel) deem there is not enough interest in this reefer (excluding the possible reasons discussed), why would lionel then think there is enough potential interest in some other piece of modern rolling stock to take another risk on?  Is this it? Cylindrical hopper flop and a scratch on the reefers?  How ridiculous would it be for Lionel to walk away from us (especially if we spent money on SD70s and ES44s) over underwhelming demand for a product flawed in a faital way? A second product announced in a catalog with the same fatal flaw?  I mean think about that! We are getting done dirty if that's the case.  

 

If the reefer is re catalog and it is clear in the description that the new trucks are problem free AND THEN there is no support, I understand Lionel pulling the plug.  

 

I have legacy, the ZW-L, some fastrack and currently 5 SD70s and 4 ES44s on the way.  Feeling like I might be getting screwed over...

 

I hope not.  

 

Ben

Hi Ed,

 

     I feel all of the S Gaugers speaking here in this forum has made a sizable commitment to lionel efforts in S Gauge. I know for a fact I have and I feel very disappointed in the last cancellation of the 57' refer cars and that is a direct insult to us all. If it hadn't been for the problem with the Cylindrical Hoppers in the delay after delay in delivery and then the rubbing of the poorly designed new trucks and paying $80.00/ car that is when we all had to be reluctant to invest into another new effort rolling stock until we could be assured it wouldn't be the same as the Cylindrical Hopper issue. Lionel attempt of their correction of the truck problem didn't set very well with me and nor did it with the others from what I read. Then to add insult to our intelligence they wanted to charge us $29.00 more for the replacement trucks like we should absorb the cost for their mistakes. Now I ask myself how much of the profits were used to produce new products in the S Gauge line.

     Over the last few years I have bought 2) Union Pacific Big Boys, 2) Union Pacific Challengers, 1) U33c Diesel, 5) SD70ACe, 2) ES44AC, every freight car non fantasy and a slew of current production passenger cars all from Lionel Production. I don't think its right that Lionel continues to keep stringing us along with everything they make in S. Lionel has made good strides in manufacturing quality and very detailed products in their S Gauge line up as well beautiful graphics decorated. I just wish they would more honest with us then they have been.

     I hope better days are coming. I will be buying the PE and I will be buying both the other Berkshire sets in 2015 but at this moment that will be all. Merry Christmas and Happy Railroading.

 

Donald Payer

 

 

 

Thanks Nick for your report.
They can only blame themselves for the pathetic piece they produce with errors and wonder why sales stink.  Duh!
Ben, since you, Rusty, myself and probably others have ES44s ordered.  If you think of it, would you the story on the new run?
Thank you very much!
John

I spoke with Matt at the show today about some of the questions that have been brought up.

I was told that the balance of the ES44s will be delivered in December.  There was a production ES44 on the wall painted up for Union Pacific.  The headlights were up top not in the nose. 

The polar express was not on display at this show.  Matt said he was hopeful that the PE set would be out by Christmas but admitted that it most likely will not make that Christmas date for delivery. 

The second run of cylindrical hoppers is still a go and the will have the reworked 70 ton truck with the high rail wheel sets.  The separate sale 70 ton trucks with the high rail wheel sets are also still going to happen. 

Now...the mechanical reefers.  Yes canceled because the forecasted interest was not good enough to cover the cost of tooling/manufacturing. I stated that I thought the interest was there, but that the hopper truck fiasco killed the preorders.  Matt said that Lionel is aware that it is likely that issue effected the perceived interest in the reefer. I encouraged him to take a look at trying again with clarification that the fiasco is over.  I had a short conversation about people like self who have spent a good amount of money on Lionel's modern S scale locomotives and now we need to know there will be some follow through for rolling stock.   I asked if the cancelation of this reefer is indicative of an overall push away from scale S and I was told it is not.  Matt said that they are still looking at other pieces to consider.  Still a question mark there for the future of S scale equipment from Lionel but it's better answer than what it could be I guess.

I forgot to ask if there were any plans for the UP heritage fleet to be completed (WP and Katy). 

There will a separate 2015 AF catalog next year. 

Ben

I've got a couple of next run hoppers on order.  It will be interesting to see how the trucks are reworked.  If the bolster is lowered, I'll replace the wheels with the ones I regauged from the first run.  If not, I have AM trucks on standby.

 

As for anything in else in the next catalog or future products, it's wait and see time. 

I expect the "traditional" style products to be relatively unaffected.

 

It seems amazing that they may not get the Polar Express sets in until after Christmas.

 

The trouble is, there aren't a lot of 40'-50' cars that are real contemporary's of SD70's and ES44's.  Even the stillborn mechanical reefer was a 1969 prototype.  Even the most "modern" cars from SSA and AM are getting long in the tooth in the prototype world.  So, if there's going to be a "modern" car to look right behind the SD's and ES's, the risk of it not getting produced appears greater than that of the reefer.

 

Sounds like we're going to be in a tight chicken-egg loop with the scale stuff, and what is needed is a chicken omelet.

 

Rusty

Thanks Ben for your report!
Good news (apparently) on the ES44s.
Rusty, we're all in the same boat regarding modern equipment. 
To some extent, I deal with it with blinders on...got a lot of stuff that is modern enough to run, maybe stretch things a bit but nothing horribly obvious. (Like X29 or 50/60's piggyback, etc.
I guess we hang in there and see where things go.

Demand?  

 

 If Lionel wants to know the true demand they need to produce some product so S becomes viable to modelers in other scales. We can't buy what don't exist. Irv Athearn didn't worry about pre-orders when he started the plastic model train revolution, he built molds and cranked out models for 30 years and reduced his mold cost per car built to pennies. A modern S car doesn't take any more material or mold expense than a steam era O scale car and the market is constantly bombarded with variations of that same old stuff. I have no idea where it all ends up but I see it languish for month on ebay while S scale stuff sells the first hour it's listed.  A new comprehensive line of S models would be building for the future not just for today, capture a small percentage of the HO and O market and you've got the numbers needed but you can't capture it if you have no bait. A new company like the old SHS or some one like Weaver that built cross-over scale/toy stuff at a value price point would be my preference over Lionel to be the big dog in S scale, they are more nimble in their production schedule and not reliant on top heavy disconnected management to make the decisions. .  ...DaveB 

The people at LIONEL need to make the Mechanical Refrigerators from Greenbrier and Trinity that are used with the SD70ACe and the ES44AC.

 

Andrew

There's the difference.  AM, SHS were started and run by S Gaugers.  SSA is about half a conglomerations of previous small firms plus some of their own tooling.  For as long as I've known Ron Sebastion, I really don't know how deep he is into S, but I know the store takes priority.  I'm grateful for what he's done in S.

 

And it could be argued that SHS was the most accommodating to their customers of the former "Big 3."

 

So now we're pretty much at the whims of Lionel and MTH, and I don't see anyone with deep enough pockets to recreate what the likes of SHS was.

 

Rusty

 

"Basically, what I am saying is that S scale needs 60' tank cars, 60' box cars, and big reefers to go with the Lionel modern diesels.  Otherwise, what was the point?"

 

    Judging from the paint schemes they put on the late model stuff I think the point was to harvest the low hanging fruit. Collectors and toy train guys are a lot more interested in "heritage" cars than scale modelers are. I see only a couple of the cylindrical hoppers in paint schemes that I'd buy.  As far as bigger cars go I think the 57 foot PFE reefer and other 60's and later era stuff is the smart way to start. Atlas did similar with their O scale line, starting with hoppers, tanks, etc that could be run by those modeling the 60's thru 2K or later. The really new really big stuff can come later when there's more modern modelers in the ranks. I could use some brand new bigger reefers but I could also use a lot of old PFE cars in various paint schemes,rust, and graffiti ....DaveB

 

The SD70 and ES44 as well as the long articulated locomotives as the Challenger and Y-3 are big enough to fit all the Legacy electronics. I think that is why they were selected as new model entries into S gauge. When Lionel is able to affordably shrink the electronics further, we may see new models. In the meantime, it is far less expensive to expand the line by modifying only the SD70s and ES44s cabs with the more common headlight position, new road numbers--at least two for each road, and non-glossy paint schemes in the major road liveries: UP, BNSF, CP, CSX, and so forth. Nothing else has to change to "refresh" these locomotives.

 

Reintroducing cylindrical hoppers with the correct height and user-swappable high-rail/scale wheels might rebuild confidence enough that Lionel might reconsider the mechanical reefer in a more reliable built-to-order scheme. If that works, then perhaps longer stack cars and auto carriers. These means several years of going into water up to the knees after getting their toes wet again, but in the meantime Lionel might consider a detailed box car in fallen flag road names to match up with a more detailed Berkshire or other steam locomotive to keep interest up with modelers who prefer the old days. They have painted the old Flyer box cars with just about every candy, baseball, football, holiday, military name possible. The only thing left is religions. It may be time to move on.  

Actually, he's a NASCAR Collectable guy...

 

Rusty

I would like to hope the new guy was hired with some attributes that will compliment the progression of the S gauge line in the correct direction.

 

Perhaps it is time to look back to the philosophy that ACG took which was to create a line that reflected the prototype for realism, OK, he didn't get it right all the time, but was there more often than not. As has been said before, S is not something that you can look at the O gauge line and simply say 'we'll just mirror the three rail concept and all will be fine'!

 

I seem to remember the LCCA was looking at producing a fantasy set in S and I wonder if some of those LCCA people have coloured the Lionel seniors into the wrong view as to believing this is the sort of products S needs, shame if this is what they took as the truth.

 

There is plenty of scope now to produce a line that will meet both ends of the spectrum and everyone will be content. They just don't seem to want to see beyond the end of their noses and accept that a good proportion of the current offerings are not quite what a lot/most S people really want.

 

The LCCA Flyer set had suffered the misfortune of the prime mover for it passing away.  From what I can tell, Lou Caponi was a dynamo for creating LCCA exclusive products.

 

To be fair, LCCA says they haven't forgot about the set and promise at least two pages of Flyer content in upcoming issues of the Lion Roars.

 

That said, I let my membership lapse a month ago.  While they certainly are a dynamic social organization with events practically every week in various parts of the country, many of their products do seem to lean heavily on fantasy paint schemes rather than the prototype inspired paint schemes of the 1980's.  Seems that's what the general membership is comfortable with. 

 

Even though I apply a looser standard for my hirail or Flyer stuff, some of the odd-ball "adaptations" LCCA has done in O are something I grow less interested in seeing applied to Flyer.

 

Rusty

Perhaps larger than 27" radius curve would be better served with 3 ft sections of flex track such as AM or SHS/MTH has. The demand for a static radius with roadbed for anything over 27" might limited as well as expensive.