Help: TIU not sending watchdog signal

Dave,

- Now both engines jack-rabbit a few seconds after power on

You really mean that they come up with lights and sounds, rather than actually move, correct?

Assuming that's the case, check first to see if you've inadvertently swapped the wires between the red and black terminals between the output side of of the TIU and the tracks.

If that's not the case, swap the wires from fixed #1 in and out to fixed #2.

Still need to ensure Fixed 1 is powered at Input or use AUX power port.  G

Clarification: I mean both engines MOVE on power applied. My steam engine starts quicker than my diesel, so it typically "jack-rabbit's" first (the diesel plays an engine start-up sequence which delays it a few seconds behind the steam).

EDIT: Engine turns the wheels and sound comes on too. Never had the chance to look at lights, but can check if desired.

With only one main power supply, I bannana-plug jumpered fixed inputs 1 & 2 in order to give the TIU power (fixed input 1), yet able to test fixed port 2 per your request.

No change. As soon as I turned on the power strip to the adapter, my steamer took off within a few seconds, and I could hear the diesel starting up. I killed power immediately.

Moved all wires (all color-coded red/black 14 gauge zip cord) to my DCS Commander, and all works fine still.

Am only applying 18vac to Fixed IN1. *Nothing* plugged into "Aux Power Input".

Is that what you were asking?

Dave,

Are you sure that these are PS2 or PS3 engines? They should not move even when coming up in conventional mode until power is turned on, off and then on again.

Yes, absolutely sure both are PS3.

Frankly, I'm embarrassed to admit that both are "Starter Set" engines (financial reasons). But if you look up both MTH steam and diesel starter sets, you'll find the engines I have. I plan on getting higher-end when $$$ allows.

But again, both work perfectly with the DCS Commander, will full functionality each engine provides.

You raise a valid point that even if powering up as conventional, they should be in "neutral", and NOT moving at all.

Any other suggestions? I lack an oscilloscope, but do have a DVM to see if track voltage is cycling (unbeknownst to me).

Also, I can move my accessory power supply to the aux TIU power input, to ensure the TIU isn't booting up in some sort of weird state.

Dave,

I'm embarrassed to admit that both are "Starter Set" engines

Why?

MTH starter sets are arguably the best value in O gauge, command control or otherwise.

I can move my accessory power supply to the aux TIU power input, to ensure the TIU isn't booting up in some sort of weird state.

That would be good.

Uggg...I'd be pulling my hair out by now if I had any.

OK, plugged the barrel power plug into the TIU Aux power input, then moved my Lionel (track accessory power supply, fixed voltage terminals) off the wiring block feeding my switches, and connected it ONLY to TIU fixed input 1. *No change!*

So, I decided to test how these engines work under true "conventional", so I disconnected all wires and connected the track directly to the Lionel controller variable output.

Found:

- These engines WILL run as soon as power is applied; more voltage more speed

- As soon as the super capacitor charges, horn and bell buttons on Lionel controller work

- There's no "Neutral-Forward-Neutral-Reverse". It's "Forward with power, stop without power", that's it. (Huh!) That explains my engines taking off.

The original observation still stands, along with when moved back to the Commander, they work perfectly fine.

Could it have anything to do with the Commander putting DC on the track, but the TIU puts out AC? That's the only obvious difference I can see.

Dave,

Are you using the same power supply for both the TIU and the DCS Commander?

Does either engine have a DCS/DCC switch? If so, make sure that they're in the DCS position.

Yes & yes.

The kicker is, it was working perfectly at first (just arrived Friday, connected to my layout Saturday/yesterday). Even "Dispatch" worked, though the volume was pretty low. I've exhausted everything I can think of.

Since I received the 50-1001 (TIU & Remote) on Friday, I'm debating whether to contact the seller, or go the warrantee route.

You may have locked these into fwd direction. That would explain motion after start up.  It doesn't explain why they don't know they are in DCS mode. 

If you have a conventional transformer with bell and whistle button you could get them started at low voltage in conventional one at a time and follow instructions to unlock direction.  At that point if you have directional control you can do a feature rest.  Then go back and try TIU again.   G

Umm, can I assume that you're asking me if I locked the "engines" into fwd direction? If that's the question, the answer is positively no. After each "test" with the TIU, I use the Commander to back each engine (and cars) into it's respective spur. So, the Commander can easily control direction of both engines, including when "All" is selected.

So yes, I have a conventional transformer with bell and whistle buttons, and surely I can start them up at low voltage (one at a time). In fact, it sound's like you're suggesting a way to knock them out of "Forward Only" and back to what I affectionately call FNRN, and left in the neutral direction. With only two trains, I can do a full reset on each (again, it's understood only one on the track at a time).

How do I do this? If the procedure is in Barry's book, a page number or some reference would be fantastic.

Thanks!

Think I found it:

https://ogrforum.com/t...in-conventional-mode

Will try it right now and update ASAP.

No luck but will re-read the above link and try other combinations. Suggestion/variations welcome!

I realize you tried this "- Enabled DCS: System->DCS Setup->AON (in case I incorrectly changed a setting); same problem", but it may not have kicked in.  I found that to be the case in solving one of my problems.  Dunno why, so just in case, try doing each channel separately. 

FWIW.

G: I couldn't figure out the correct sequence to press on the Lionel to reset it. I could blow the horn and press the bell button 5 times, but nothing changed.

Then I remembered that the Commander (console, not wireless) has both train "feature reset" and "factory reset". Did both...no change.

Cheryl: Yes I tried AON and each channel, but I'm going to try it again (but this time only fixed channel 1, not all of them). Heck if I can get at least one to work, then repeating the same step 3 more times will be a snap. 

No harm, right?

Again, no luck. Putting power to the TIU almost immediately sends the engine off at full speed.

I was thinking that some may be wondering if my changes on the remote are actually reaching the TIU. Since I can't read track levels (no trains loaded), the best I can do to test the two-way link is to check the TIU Rev. level (which works), and "Emergency Stop", which kills power to the track.

Clearly I can communicate with the TIU, and my Commander can communicate with the train (and had to re-program my train number back in after the factory reset), but at least it ruled that part out.

So using DCS via the DCS Commander and the engines detect watch dog and work fine.  When you shift to the TIU and the Z-1000 they miss the watchdog and start moving immediately?

Frankly I am stumped.  What Lionel transformer did you use for the conventional test?  Some engines don't like the CW-80.  The DCS reset and the conventional reset may work different in certain cases.  I think it is important to try to run the engine with an MTH z-1000 transformer in conventional.  IF it starts moving immediately you need to lower voltage to less than 10V and try the unlock sequence.  Your engine instruction manuals have a section on conventional operations.  The commands are the same, but it takes some time to get the sequence right.   G

When you shift to the TIU and the Z-1000 they miss the watchdog and start moving immediately?

Yes, exactly. But note in the starting post at the top, this wasn't initially the case with this same setup. Referring to the sequence of events at the top-most post; this TIU was working.

What Lionel transformer did you use for the conventional test?  Some engines don't like the CW-80.

Yes, I'm using a CW-80, but with the singular exception of the attempt to reset per your request, it only serves as auxiliary power to my Fastrack switches (using the fixed auxiliary output on the CW-80).

The DCS reset and the conventional reset may work different in certain cases.

Granted, but if I performed both a feature and factory reset using the Commander, wouldn't that be sufficient?

Your engine instruction manuals have a section on conventional operations.

The Steamer has no mention of conventional, but the diesel does. However, I cannot get the diesel to function as conventional using the CW-80. But using the Commander, I was able to confirm both engines operate as:

- Conventional DC (as the Commander is intended for HO and DC voltage operation)

- DCS

The commands are the same, but it takes some time to get the sequence right.

Understood, but as I asked above, wouldn't the commander feature and factory reset do the same thing? It certainly reset the engine's assigned number on me (telling me that the factory reset worked).

Thought about this some more.  First, Are these PS-3 engines or PS-2?

For PS-3 conventional reset does effect some items differently than using DCS and doing factory and feature resets.

There was a service note and some engine were locked in fwd leaving factory.  Using DCS would over ride this, but if you tried conventional ops it would be locked.

That is why the recommendation is to use a Pure AC transformer like the Z-1000 and if the train moves immediately, you set voltage to less than 10V train moving very slowly and do the unlock sequence.  Once unlocked you can put engine in neutral and do a feature reset.  This clears any memory only accessible via conventional mode.

Than shift to DCS and test and also do a factory reset.

What I would do is use the Z-1000 brick to power your TIU via the AUX Power port.

Than use the CW to power FIX1.  Test again.  If train tries to run off you can throttle down on CW and see if it will go to neutral.  If it stops but when you reapply power it goes to fwd again, the engine is locked in fwd.  You will need to do a conventional unlock to clear it.

You can than shift CW to FIX 2 and test Fixed 2 output.  If the engine reads the watchdog and you can run with DCS you have a bad component on FIX1.  That is repairable.  Than test VAR1 and 2.  At that point we have the TIU figured out and most likely the engine.

You may need to take it to a club or LHS to get the conventional reset done.   G

Are these PS-3 engines or PS-2?

Absolutely positively PS-3. Both have a small oval-shaped black sticker on the bottom, with gold lettering, that clearly reads "PS-3".

There was a service note and some engine were locked in fwd leaving factory.  Using DCS would over ride this, but if you tried conventional ops it would be locked.

Certainly describes my situation, but not the failure of the TIU to send the DCS watchdog.

That is why the recommendation is to use a Pure AC transformer like the Z-1000 and if the train moves immediately, you set voltage to less than 10V train moving very slowly...

Yikes! I forgot to clarify that I purchased the Z-1000 transformer off of eBay, to provide enough current to my layout, at a really good price. But, it did not include the Z-1000 Controller (hence the good price). So regrettably, I cannot do that. Am considering ordering a "complete" Z-1000.

Than use the CW to power FIX1.  Test again.  If train tries to run off you can throttle down on CW and see if it will go to neutral.

Any reason why I can't try that now, as it gives a safety net from derailing my trains (written plural, but always tested singular)?

You may need to take it to a club or LHS to get the conventional reset done.

Well, that's not as easy as it sounds. I'm a disabled vet (USAF) and transportation is an issue for me. I've got friends that can cart it around for me, but they wouldn't know anything about what they're doing.

Oh, I should add that though the trains fail to follow the conventional direction cycling of NFNR, they *do* respond appropriately to conventional speed control, bell, and whistle! So yes, it is possible for me to reduce the power for either engine to stop, yet maintain engine sounds (and smoke, though I've turned those down as I'm burning up lots of smoke juice...{cough...cough} .

UPDATE #1: OK, I hooked up the CW-80 into the TIU fixed input 1, and adjusted the voltage to just under running speed (sound and lights still on, steamer).

"Whistle-Bell-Bell-Bell-Bell-Bell" - Nothing

"Whistle-Bell-Bell-Bell-Bell-Bell" - Nothing

"Whistle-Bell-Bell-Bell-Bell-Bell" - Two whistles, the signal that I put it into Conventional!!! Yay!

Now, using the CW-80 throttle, running thru TIU fixed input 1 (and fixed output 1 obviously), I can cycle the engine through NFNR!

You can than shift CW to FIX 2 and test Fixed 2 output.  If the engine reads the watchdog and you can run with DCS you have a bad component on FIX1.  That is repairable.  Than test VAR1 and 2.  At that point we have the TIU figured out and most likely the engine.

With the help of banana plugs, shifted CW-80 to FIX2, VAR1, and VAR2, with the Z1000 brick supplying TIU power through the barrel connector "Aux Power Input". Power-cycled everything between each change to another port (to reset the TIU, primarily). No luck.

Repeated "System->DCS Setup->AON", and no luck there (other than killing Variable 1 & 2). Turned Variable 1 & 2 from "On" to "Fixed", and the engine operates conventionally.

Despite all of the steps above, with the engine in neutral, "NO ENGINE FOUND".

Then I moved the Z1000 barrel connector to the Commander, transferred the track wires too, and the steamer runs perfect under DCS.

UPDATE #2: Using the "Whistle-Bell-Bell-Bell-Bell-Bell" several times, I successfully got the diesel into conventional mode. Now, under conventional operation, when track power is applied both engines come up in neutral (NFNR). But, still doesn't respond to TIU DCS.

Moved all wires back to the Commander, and both engines work perfectly.

Great.  You unlocked the engine.  So now we know they work in conventional and they work in DCS with your CDR.  The problem is a bad TIU.  Since it sounds like all 4 channels don't send the DCS Signal there is a chip that is probably bad.  It can be repaired.

Is this new TIU?  If so I would return for replacement.

I am an MTH Tech and also do work for MTH, so the advice you get from Barry and I will be equivalent to MTH, if not a little better.

G

I thought that transformer was not compatible with DCS.

Good point! After all of this "testing", I never did try normal operation through the TIU.

So, I moved the Z1000 brick over to the barrel jack adapter connected to "Fixed IN1", and moved the track wires to "Fixed Out1".

Turned on the power strip, and after about 5 seconds, both engines came on idle, presumably in conventional mode (lights & sound, no motion).

This confirms you cleared the Direction Lock, and reaffirms the TIU is bad with no DCS Signal.  G

Follow-up: Per the seller's request, I personally spoke on the phone with "Dick" at MTH Technical support. After trying a few changes in wiring configuration and TIU settings (exactly identical to the advice provided here on this forum), he agreed that the TIU was indeed defective and in need of repair.

My seller has agreed to replace the unit from new stock in his possession, which is fortunate as Dick told me that MTH is now (once again) out of stock.

Someone at MTH is severely underestimating the business environment/market!!!

Closing of thread:

The seller of the defective TIU was fantastic. Besides being local, he paid 100% return and replacement shipping. The new TIU works FANTASTIC!

My seller was "Silver City Hobby", and to avoid breaking any forum rules, I'll not post any link or such. Hopefully, based on my post, perhaps other hobbyists will utilize this seller, and demonstrate the importance of becoming an OGR sponsor.  A "win-win" as they say, right? Of course this is absolutely NO REFLECTION on current forum sponsors.

I just ordered an MTH AIU from them, and looking to expand further.

HAVING FUN!!!