I'm Such An Idiot (Again)...

You better join TTA . (Toy Trains Anonymous !!

Logic and model railroading are at opposite ends of the spectrum...

That's why in spite of a terminal case of S-scaleitis, I recently bought a trio of Kato N Scale Santa Fe F7's, plus ordered a runner pack Micro-Trains Santa Fe boxcars...

Rusty

Whatever floats your boat..............

The layout can accommodate both eras. If the modern buildings are removable, all of the scenery and older buildings can be left in place for all eras.

Unless I am misunderstanding the problem? All you need is two vintages of rolling stock.

One of the problems in this hobby is that there is no vaccination for packratitis.   I have boxes full of old HO from a number of decades ago, from a world to which I will not return.  (yeah, I should take a table or load it all on the net and send it to new homes....too much time needed)

RoyBoy:

Not really. My interests in diesel and steam are at totally opposite ends of the spectrum:

* Diesels: Urban setting in the KC area with switch engines and based on memories of my youth.

* TOC19 steam: Ozark mountains setting with mountainside towns/etc and based on my historical interests.

Over the years, I think the gap between the interest points regarding the two era's led to the long "which one" dilemma I had way back when. Only one layout was a the only realistic option.  Now, though, I DO have the ability to have TWO:

* The larger KC diesel theme in my new 16' x 20' out-building.

* A small TOC19 Ozark theme layout on the existing bench work in this computer/hobby room I occupy here in the house.

Updates to follow later!

Andre

Now, as for my idea on how to do this IF I decide to do it:

I'm currently sitting at the computer here in my "Computer/Hobby" room. This room is only about 12' 9" x 9'6" plus a 9' 6" x 2' closet. At this point, there exists "around the walls" table top bench work complete with homasote, and blue sky w/clouds backdrop. This was going to accommodate the "first" KC Lines idea. Long story short, the KC Lines concept outgrew this room, and the new out building is the result. (Still needs the interior finished when the contractor can get to me.) This leaves this current bench work in this small room unused. I was going to totally dismantle the existing bench work, and reclaim the room for nothing but computer use, bookshelves, and a hobby workbench. (It is currently doing this and more, including storage/etc. It's a crowded mess.)

Now with this TOC19 layout idea, I'm not so sure about dismantling all of the existing bench work.

However, at this point I do NOT think I want to reuse ALL of the existing bench work, instead just retaining an L shaped portion and access to the closet for staging. Upon this would be a small junction point yard and the town of "Ozarka Springs".  Such a layout would FINALLY be a place to use my old HO scale Black Mountain & Northern concept as well as the equipment I built for it. I would use my old PFM Mini-Sound 2 console with the reverb, bypass filter, and all the proverbial whistles and bells that the system brings to the table. (You just can't beat the sounds and "playability" the PFM2 series of consoles produced.)

The operational concept would be:

* As was the prototype town/railroad that I drew inspiration from, my fictional town of "Ozarka Springs" would be on the end of a short branch of the main line of the parent road, which would essentially mimic the operational scheme the Missouri & North Arkansas used in order to serve the Ozark mountain town of Eureka Springs in northwest Arkansas "way back when".

* The BM&N "main line" trains would deliver inbound cars for Ozarks Springs (and retrieve outbound cars from same) via the small junction yard, and then the Ozarka Springs switcher would go about the business of spotting the inbounds, pulling the outbounds, and classifying the outbounds at the small junction yard. Of course, the BM&N "main line" would be represented by the closet staging tracks and thus never have to be modeled per se.

* The town of "Ozarka Springs" would be very loosely based on the prototype town of Eureka Springs, Arkansas, which was (and still is) a fascinating town. The railroading there was pretty interesting, too.

Ah shucks, here's a picture of the prototype Eureka Springs back when the railroad first reached town in 1882 as the "Eureka Springs Railway":

And here's a couple views of Eureka Springs that reflect what I would like to emulate with my "Ozarka Springs"...

Okay, that's it for this installment.

Next one (may be a while... may not) will include some model pictures.

All fer now!

Andre

I don't have MRADD*, I .............................................

Oh look, steam locomotives!

*Model Railroad Attention Deficit Disorder, since our society today wants to label everybody. 

OK Andre, have a seat on the couch, and lets discuss your disorder.  Just so you know, my hourly rate is one 2500 class Black Mountain 2-8-0.  Don't worry about finishing it, a few minutes with the Iwata, decoder installation, and she will be doing excursion service on the Spokane Southern.  There should be just enough space for a TCS WOW sound decoder.................................................................................................................

Darn, distracted again, so lets start over. 

I understand your dilemma.   I've been building my HO model railroad for over...........................................................................

The Soo Line ran a really interesting operation that I've always wanted to model, so I started with MSTS and built the line from Ashland to .............................

Darn, must stay focused, reset again. 

You really need to stay focused on that Urban KC area layout and.................................................................

Oh look, Northern Pacific steam locomotives with command control and sound in three rail........................

So as I was saying, I've been admiring your modeling efforts in "V" scale since MSTS came out, and you iterations of that KC switching operation that you did....................................................

About a year ago, I downloaded this two rail O scale layout that I was drooling over.  Scott Mann came out with that beautiful L-131, if the wife and I moved, I could do a two rail O scale layout, focusing on..............................................................................

Buddy, I can't help ya......................................................................

Regards,

Jerry

Do it! Just do it!..

So I can live vicariously through you.

You need to move back to a carpet layout.

So you can build a tier per year over it, each in a new theme

The tear down time you'd save, make that two tiers per year.

TOC19 almost gets me often . Not the right O still in my price range to satisfy my choice; an obscure logger.

An On30, 2ft long, mine entrance even crept into my modeling when I wasn't looking (which is all the time, being a "tad" toyish)

  I'll only need two, a Porter (pic,made O,On30) and a 1894(?) Schenectady? 2-6-?.  It had a 4 wheel trailer added by the owner Obviously would need to bash that since there is no American Adriatic record . I do like the low slung Baldwins..

....Shoot..........If I buy a train too soon now, its all your fault

Scale choice would not matter. If I ever find a photo of the "big" engine I'll build it from the empty bottles. The ones from pills the doctors will be giving me to calm down

Yep..your fault

laming posted:

 

I just stared blankly at this for over 5 minutes.

I think my mastiffs are jealous of my drool puddle

ColoradoHiRailer:

So true, so true. Say... 'ya got any TOC19 stuff in that old stash?

Jerry:

LOL! That was great. Fun read.

FWIW: That 2500 will eventually be number in the single digits or so. Just never did get around to removing the factory paint on the donor tender shell!

ADRIATIC:

Now that's my boy!  Enable me to indulge in my addiction!

Yes many times over on the Eureka Springs pictures. I have a bunch of ES pics. It was/is a fascinating place. STILL has charm, even in 2016.

Some of my BEST railroading experiences and memories took place on the Eureka Springs & North Arkansas tourist operation during its "Glory Years" in the 1980s. I was a paid "extra man" for them during that time, and the ES&NA depot/service/shop facilities were in the same identical location as pictured in that 1882 picture above. The rails of the ES&NA were relaid upon the roadbed of the North Arkansas line all the way to Junction, and there the wye roadbed re-used. Thus, I was (in a way) reliving history every day I worked at the ES&NA. I'll tell you, many, many were the times I was in a "zone" running those steam engines. My personal favorite was wood burning #1.  Many were the times I would get goose bumps leaving Junction and headed for Eureka Springs... that wonderful chime whistle, that sharp crack of the exhaust as I worked the grades with it... man... all of it.

Darn. Out of time. Gotta' be gone for a bit.

More later. (I suspect this thread to become a mini-novel!!)

Andre

But you just got rollin'........hope he doesn't fall asleep after he's finished

....with her

I'm BAAAaack!

ADRIATIC:

Nope, not asleep... wife and took the grand daughter home and ate supper with daughter and "him". (Son-in-law )

Now, for some quick background and some pics:

The roots of my appreciation for steam actually go back to the Freedom Train in 1976.

Standing beside the highway in the middle of a cold night in north Oklahoma... and listening to that distant moan of the GS4's whistle and that wonderful exhaust note... awakened me to a railroading world I had previously ignored. The passing of the train a few moments later was simply frosting on the cake. Previous to that night, my interest was diesels only. This encounter led to a brief flirtation with modeling steam. Modeling steam was tougher than I thought, so that idea played out quickly, but the newfound respect and appreciation for steam remained.

However, "The Experience" changed everything. My "Experience" happened while I was riding the tender of wood burning Eureka Springs & North Arkansas Mogul #1. I can remember so vividly the rock cut, the rapid and sharp barking of the exhaust, and that wonderful chime whistle erupting raucously, yet melodiously, into the wonderful Ozark spring air. I can also vividly recall the goose bumps that shot up my back and on my arms during that moment. I also distinctly remember thinking "so THIS is why David (an elderly model railroad friend that LOVED steam) is so crazy about steam!".

From The Experience onward, I have had a DEEP appreciation for steam. It was because of The Experience, that I started trying to pursue a modeling idea that would become my own "Black Mountain & Northern" concept and theme that's set in the Ozarks. As for fleshing out some details, the BM&N drew inspiration from the prototypical railroading that existed in the Ozarks for inspiration in the late 1800s and early 1900s.

I made several attempts to overthrow my diesel theme layout, but I was never able to take the fateful plunge and start dismantling the current diesel layout of the time. The dilemma continued for years and years. I thought it was at bay... but maybe not.

Anyway, through my years of indulging in steam along with my diesel modeling, I learned that I really enjoyed kit bashing steam locomotive kits, as well as kit bashing truss rod type rolling stock.

Now, let me preface what follows by saying that I'm not a "craftsman" oriented modeler. Those years are past, and have been for a long time. Instead, I heartily embrace the "good e'nuf" philosophy, even in my BM&N days some 25-30 years ago. That is, if it looks good enough to my eyes, it's good enough. Period. This applies to both diesel and steam modeling. Therefore, I like taking an easy approach to accomplish what I want to do. Sure, my "wants" often dictate some effort, but that's okay... as long as the entire THEME doesn't require exacting effort. (This was the aspect that killed my several-year-long foray into Colorado-based Sn3. There was imply WAY too much craftsman work required to model the era I wanted to model.)

Therefore, especially with steam, I want models that look "good enough", has some distinction, but not overly time intensive or expensive. Thus, MDC Old Timer locomotives became the basis for almost all of my steam kit bashing, as well as comprising a heavy part of the rolling stock roster.

I conceived the BM&N as a smaller regional railroad in the Ozarks that came into existence in the late 19th century. I was going to model the 1900's so I don't have to deal with link and pin coupling. The BM&N is envisioned to run north/south through some of the most rugged of the Ozarks (intentionally!) and draws heavily from the inspiration of the following prototype Ozark lines:

* The Frisco's "Ft. Smith Sub/Central Sub" in NW Arkansas.

* The Frisco's "St. Paul Branch" in NW Arkansas.

* The Missouri & North Arkansas in north Arkansas.

* The Black Mountain & Eastern in NW Arkansas.

* Other lesser inspirational prototype lines.

I envisioned smaller power that had some history behind it. Consolidated's of 1880's vintage would be the biggest power. There would also be Moguls of the same vintage. Wooden truss rod rolling stock would comprise fully 100% of the BM&N rolling stock fleet and about 95% of the total fleet. (I like truss rod stuff!)

Crap. I'm doing that "Mr. Verbosity" thing again.  Let's cut short the drivel and get to the pictures.

First, a look at an "in process" (almost all of my BM&N engines are "in process"!) BM&N Consolidated. This one has been "modernized" with a steel sheathed cab. It is to hoped that it generally reflects a "Dickson/Cooke" type of look: It uses a modified MDC 0-6-0 boiler and cab. (Cab roof re-contoured and a new roof installed.) I think the domes are from a Tyco "Rogers" Ten Wheeler. I also think cylinder saddle has been modified so the the boiler sits lower on the frame. (I think all of my BM&N engines have this modification.)

Now, what isn't evident is that inside that small tender is a PFM sound module, sans speaker. (Robbed it years ago to use in an Sn3 project.) There are also Tomar rail wipers on both tender trucks and two on the pick up side of the frame (one is visible if you look between the 3rd and 4th driver.) Those helped the contact issues tremendously. (Ha... just noticed how dusty that model is!!) I also have a installed a Sagami 16mm x 30mm can motor and NWSL regearing sets in it. It runs very nice: Slow, quiet, and smooth.

Next up is an "in process" kit bashed Mogul that uses an MDC Mogul frame w/52" drivers. The boiler is from a Tyco "Rogers" Ten Wheeler that I cut and butchered to appear as you see it. The domes are "stand ins" at this point until I decide what kind of domes I want to use. It also has the same treatment as above: Ready for a Sagami 16x30mm can (on hand), has NWSL gears, sliders, etc. Still quite a bit of work to do on this one, but it would be fun work.


Next is a picture of one of the surviving "nearly finished" BM&N kit bashed engines. This one started out as an MDC Old Timer 2-8-0, but I hacked it into a 2-6-2 early on. In retrospect, I do not want a 2-6-2 on the roster, as they were not at all common (as in "none) in the Ozarks. Therefore, I suspect I will gut the mechanism (Sagami 16mm x 30mm can and NWSL gears) and use the boiler/cab on some other more typical Ozark type wheel arrangement. (Read: Consol, Mogul, or maybe a Ten Wheeler.)  When iced some decades ago, it only needed a crew in the cab and "glass" installed in some of the windows to be "done". FWIW: This one still has its complete sound system installed. BTW, the coal loads on all of the tenders is dyed foam rubber. This allows the sound to come out of the tender nicely via the face ported speaker.

And now for the cabeese. Up first is a side door. This was kit bashed using an MDC Old Timer wood sheathed side door caboose that I shortened so as to take advantage of one of the greatest virtues of TOC19 modeling: Short equipment! (My longest freight car is 36' long!) Trust me, much experimentation confirmed to me that TOC19 trains are SHORTER and thus much more manageable for a layout environment. The shorter cars also increases spur/siding capacity to boot for any give spur/siding length compared to more modern lengths. Perfect for smaller layouts.

(Ha! Looks like I didn't seat the roof fully before I shot the pic earlier this evening!)

Here's a regular caboose, again using the MDC Old Timer caboose:

What isn't apparent in the two photos above is there is "glass" installed in all the windows. Looks nice when they reflect ambient light.

And for a couple of samples of "good e'nuf" rolling stock. Both of these have scratch built bodies grafted to MDC Old Timer truss rod boxcar frames. They are a lot of fun to make.

This "good e'nuf" thing also extends to structures.  For example, here's an old Ozark home place typical of the time and region that was made from a 99 cent "snap tite" base structure. I simply distressed the wood elements a bit, added an old elbow type smoke stack (from a pot bellied stove, no doubt), created some curtains using typing paper, and re-roofed it with rusted sheet iron, oh, and added some "sway back" to the porch. This little structure would be perched upon some rock pillars once placed on a layout.

Okay, that's it for this installment of "As The Layout Turns".   I think the next installment I'll share some more about Eureka Springs and its railroad.

However, it may be a while, I'm on the board to work tomorrow, so I've got to go earn a living playing with 1:1 trains.

Andre

Pull a John Allen and build a layout that has both. Or else do what I did when I ran HO, and model a model railroad "museum", which would allow you to run anything you want.

  I love looking at your things because despite geographical differences, you always post something "familiar".

 The material isn't really even evident The house reminds me of an abandoned shack home once in the middle of a break in the woods on the edge of the Hiawatha National Forest. I used it for rain shelter often. Need to lean the whole thing left Geographically only needs black earth wash and green moss. (on the roof mostly)  

Growing up, my neighbors parents had  pictures from their childhood in the Ozark's. The topographic aspects of the terrain there is very unique.

I got the subtle mention of the difficulty of it.

   Either that "Hex Building" was in another post too, and I'm not sure, or I may have seen long it before. It strikes as the kind of thing I'd put at the low end of a switchback carved hillside.   Along way from VR, but I used to really like to build switchbacks, up and over the crests of the mountain sides (Railroad Tycoon's?).

 I dierd edit diff. lol

I'm BAAAAaaaack!

Did 'ya miss me??

ADRIATIC:

So you had parents from the Ozarks, too, eh? Small world!

All:

Thought I'd pontificate and prose on about the prototype town of Eureka Springs, Arkansas and its railroad.

For those that haven't a clue what railroad I'm talking about, in 1882 a line was built from a connection with the Frisco at Seligman, MO, to the boom town of Eureka Springs, Arkansas, a distance of about 18 miles. In 1899, the ES Rwy was folded into the St.Louis & North Arkansas, and expansion begin to points deeper in the Ozarks of Arkansas as well as the cotton lands southeast of the Ozark Mountains. The St.Louis & North Arkansas was re-invented as the Missouri & North Arkansas in 1907, and the M&NA was pushed to completion from Joplin, Missouri, to the river port town of Helena, Arkansas, on the Mississippi River, a total distance of about 360 miles. In 1935, the M&NA was again re-invented, this time called the Missouri & Arkansas. The M&A lasted until 1946 when it went belly up. The final version of the North Arkansas was the "Arkansas & Ozarks". The A&O was a truncated version (from Seligman to Harrison, Arkansas, some 75 miles), and the A&O lasted until 1960. The A&O era used a pair of GE 70 ton engines for power. The North Arkansas (as it's most often referred to) was an obscure railroad with a very colorful history that included all sorts of catastrophes, swindles, mismanagement, drama... even a lynching.  It truly was a hard-luck railroad. The only hard cover book that covers its history exclusively is long out of print, but available online: "The North Arkansas Line" by James R. Fair, Jr.

That said...

I have some Eureka Springs Sanborn maps that span from the 1880s up into the teens of the 20th century. During the short span of time that Eureka Springs was "headquarters" for the expanding St. Louis & North Arkansas, it was pretty intense, complete with turntable, ultra small yard, multi-stall engine house, large team track, stock pens, ice house, and other items. All of this was crammed into the tight confines of Leatherwood Hollow next to where the last depot is still located.

You added:

For my small layout idea, as I did in TOC19 dreams n' schemes some 20 years ago, I envision a town that is essentially a surrogate Eureka Springs: Ozarka Springs.  My "Ozarka Springs" would "reflect" some of the elements about Eureka Springs that I find fascinating.  One of the elements I to implement into Ozark Springs would be a representation of the prototype "Ozarka" brand water bottling plant that was at Eureka Springs.

(FWIW: The Ozarka brand of bottled water still exists and is sold in this region, but has nothing to do with Eureka Springs any longer.)

Speaking of Ozarka bottling, here's a prototype pic of a couple of their cars during the later years of the North Arkansas that was snapped at Eureka Springs:

If I do this TOC19 small layout idea, I really ought to come up with a decal set similar to the above, changing the place name as needed! (i.e. Ozarka Springs instead of Eureka Springs.)

Parting shots:

I've been going through my stash of TOC19 Ozark-based short line layout plans that I developed decades ago. Sort of refreshing myself with what I had come up with for small spaces back then. I may use some of the elements I'm finding on some of the layout plans as "maybe" points for inclusion. I can't find the track plan for a sectional 9' cubicle (with backdrops no less) that I designed and even built the bench work for back in the late 1980s. Alas, someone offered to buy the entire cubicle and I sold it, including giving them the track plan. Silly me on the track plan for not making a copy.

Oh, and I'm still inventorying my remaining TOC19 stuff, too.

Okay... that's it this installment!

Andre

Andre:

I'd like to back up a bit, and discuss further your overall plans for where you would like to go in this hobby.   I'm sure you are aware, we all have a finite amount of time on this earth, and like everybody else, I'm sure that you have goals that you would like to achieve.  Please don't misconstrue my comments here, I don't want to discourage anybody from following their passions, but I do want to see if I can understand why you feel the need to dilute your free time any further, which WILL keep you from achieving your goals with the KC layout.   IIRC, you also have interests outside of model railroading, and you need time for those activities too.  

• You are on I believe your third or fourth iteration of the KC Bottoms layout.  If I recall correctly, you originally did a freelance version of the layout (or at least painted and lettered some awesome equipment) in HO, gravitated to three rail O, first in a traditional "Lionel style" layout, then in "hi-rail / three rail scale", then to "S", now back to HO (the right place to end up IHMO ).   Clearly, you have a real affinity for this area, and I would hate to see you not realize your vision for the KC layout, set in the early 60s, due to "distractions".  You have that nice big outbuilding now.......................................
• Distractions are great.  They serve as learning experiences, and give us a chance to see another side of modeling that we may not otherwise experience.  But you have already experienced the "small steam and broken down shortline" genre before, and you gave up on it.  What was the reason you moved on before?  To use that worn out analogy, "those who fail to study history are doomed to repeat it", rings quite true here.  Every hour you spend on this current planning effort is one hour less that keeps you from having a functional railroad with sound equipped SWs shoving cuts of cars in and out of huge grain elevators, switching multi-story red brick buildings with various carloads, etc.  If the sound of that 8-567B in that SW isn't enough for ya, don't forget about that FM OP switcher, throttling up, and spewing blue smoke all over the place while easily handling long cuts of cars...............................
• I suspect that you very much enjoy the planning and start of the execution phase for various layouts, but then you mind wants to wander to new challenges, and that you like repeating this part of the cycle.  If this is the case, then disregard everything else I have written above.  If that is what truly give you joy, by all means, keep on doing it.  But I'd sure hate for you to reach a stage of your life when you can't repeat this cycle, and then regret not taking the KC layout idea to its logical conclusion.  If you don't see that happening, once again, ignore everything I've written here.  
• Sometimes, I think that model railroading can be a lot like personal finance.  A lot of people like to follow the stock market, and either play around with a slush fund and play the market, or use their retirement funds as the playground, sometimes with disastrous results (I've worked with a lot of people that rode GM stock right into the ground, and lost most of their 401k assets in the process).  People get attached to a stock, and have trouble letting go.  In the case of the Eureka Springs layout, I think a pause for reflection is in order.  Maybe, just maybe, this one ought to be on the "sold" category.   In the case of personal finance, I have a financial planner I trust, I let her make the decisions on what we need to do to achieve our personal financial goals, and I keep my emotions out of it.  I question her decisions, she backs up her reasons with facts, I verify that I'm comfortable with it, and we move on.  But I'm not the one making the moves on emotion.  
• In my personal case, I took an 11 year diversion into three rail O scale.  I've moved on, and will never look back.  My regret in that case was a failure to take action in 2009 when the writing was on the wall that the three rail modular gig was not a long term strategy.  In 2009, we also finished our renovation, and in January 2010, I started my HO railroad expansion.  If I had not been emotionally attached to the three rail, and would have "sold out" when my gut told me to, but my emotional brain wouldn't allow it, I would have had all my trackwork complete, and already running FULL TT&TO operating sessions, instead of being where I am today, which is three years behind schedule!   Once again, we all have a finite time on this earth.
• You have talents that a lot of us, including me, envy.  Just want to make sure that you channel those talents for the most benefit, since I, and others, like to live vicariously through your efforts. 
• I don't know if you are into the proto-op part of this hobby, or if that is "just another day of work" since that is already the day job.  If a complete operating layout is not what gives you joy, then by all means, continue your current path, and do what gives you joy. 

I may be out of line in posting this, but since you have asked for feedback...........................................     

Regards,

Jerry

NOTE to OTHERS: This is gonna' be long, and is primarily a response to some of the "thought points" Jerry raised.  SO, there's pics to be seen, but lots of text. Browse the pics and enjoy what you can from them and skip the rest if'n you want to!

Jerry:

Wow. That's a very thoughtful and introspective-provoking post.  It has caused me to reflect and ponder things some more.  I'm quoting some of your input and will elaborate as I can on each point, one by one.  Here we go...

"You are on I believe your third or fourth iteration of the KC Bottoms layout."

The ORIGINAL Kansas City & Gulf HO theme was conceived back in the mid-late 1990s and super-imposed over an existing Frisco-theme layout that I had grown a bit stale with. The concept of the KC&G "mythical line", was that it basically ran from my hometown of KC, down through the Ozark and Ouachita mountains of Arkansas, and on down to New Orleans. My ORIGINAL layout for the KC&G modeled the mountainous portion in the Ozarks, not KC. It was during that time of activity that the existing KC&G models were built.

When we moved to this home we're still in, it necessitated dismantling the tri-level layout on which the KC&G's "Ozark Sub" resided. Also, available layout space was significantly downsized.  At the time I didn't have the available space to do the KC&G "Ozark Sub" justice, and the KC urban industrial idea was still years away from being thought of.

I felt this would be a good opportunity to experiment with two things:

1. Modeling TOC19. (Albeit in Sn3 and not HO.)

2. Modeling Colorado, which both my wife and I dearly love.

So, I gave Sn3 a gung-ho shot for a few years, but the intensity of the work required to model the era I wanted to model (TOC19), as well as the layout limitations imposed by such a small space (aka this room in which I'm typing this post), caused the idea to be abandoned before the small layout was operational.

Sn3's downfall was two fold:

1. I didn't want to build EVERYTHING (which included a LOT of scratch building) that modeling TOC19 in Sn3 required, such as building a stable of these:

The above is a Railmaster kit that started out as a pile of brass and pewter parts. It requires about 40-60 hours to complete.  I needed several such engines.

2. I also became discouraged trying to cram the Colorado Rockies into a visible area that was 12'6" by 9'6". Below will be a couple of views of what I was trying to accomplish in such a small area for the Colorado Rockies in Sn3.

Here's a short train at the location that was to be known as "Spruce".  Note the string of scratch built rolling stock following the locomotive. That's only a portion of the rolling stock I needed to supply even a small layout.

And here's the picture representative of the state of the bench work when I decided to throw in the towel on such a work-intensive medium. (Note: The Masonite flats were to be painted/textured to look like rock formations/etc.)

With Sn3, I had been doing a LOT of very work-intensive modeling, so much, that I was ready to take a break from ANY FORM of it... so... I reworked the Sn3 bench work, (undid the cookie cutter and made it a flat table top) and threw in some 3 rail and kicked back and ran trains for a spell. At first, I simply had a couple of loops and ran trains, savoring the relaxing smell of ozone filling the air emanating from my Postwar stuff.  Then, I added some switches... next I ended up designing a layout. I figured: Well, since I'm doing 3 rail traditional, "realism" doesn't exactly have to be a high-priority... so why not cram in a bunch of track so I can do a bit of switching? Hey... what better place to find track crammed into tight places but an urban setting? HEY... why not reflect good ol' Kansas City when I was a kid?

So, during my loose knit "theme" for my 3 rail was the time that I literally stumbled upon the KC Lines idea. Along the way I developed my "Photoflats" concept and begin implementing same. Here's a representative pic of that short period of time that I relaxed with 3 rail:

As mentioned before on these forums, I soon tired of the toy train approach, yet the more I moved toward "hi-rail", the more disappointed I became with the limitations of using that medium, and the more distracting the track (height and that third rail) became. However, I did like the larger trains, so next it was S scale and I retained the KC Lines idea for this small area I had to work with.

Unfortunately, I chose to enter S at a very bad time. Product was too hard to come by, and the available variety that was congruent with what I wanted to do was nowhere near the level that I desired. I limped along in S scale never really accomplishing a whole lot until I faced the facts and pulled the plug.

HO to the rescue and suddenly I gained 30% more railroad on the same bench work for my KC Lines idea.

Soon, the idea of an out building was discussed. It was originally going to be a work shop and would not contain a layout. However, the more I thought about it, the more I realized this would be a great time to move the KC Lines theme to a new and larger home. Shortly after the decision to build an out building, I decided to reuse my KC&G as the main character on the KC Lines theme, and finally, we're at where I'm at "today" with the KC&G/KC Lines ideas. Bear in mind that the original KC&G modeling had nothing to do with KC, but was based in the Ozarks.

So, in a way, there were iterations, but getting there was somewhat a circuitous "trial and error" route.

The next item I would like to discuss:

"But you have already experienced the "small steam and broken down shortline" genre before, and you gave up on it.  What was the reason you moved on before?"

Very valid observation. Hm... I had to think on that one.

I think the main reason I gave up on it was the limitations of PFM sound in a "walk around" setting.  The layout space I had that I could devote to TOC19 modeling "back when" would require walking around to operate (switch the towns). It was a long and narrow space. At that time, there was no practical way to have walk-around capability with quality sound. I experimented mounting the PFM console on a rolling tray with long tethers to the layout for electrical connections and reverb unit and operated TOC19 stuff on my existing tri-level diesel layout to see how this arrangement would work. The inconvenience of doing so was not something that had long term appeal. Then the move to the new house came and that was that.

When I had another chance to explore TOC19 I went with a bit larger trains (Sn3) in this smaller room, which I elaborated on above.  I sort of left HO behind at that point for a long time, so that's what happened to not only the HO TOC19, but also the HO diesels.

Next point:

"Every hour you spend on this current planning effort is one hour less that keeps you from having a functional railroad with sound equipped SWs shoving cuts of cars..."

I will elaborate on this point a bit later.

"I suspect that you very much enjoy the planning and start of the execution phase for various layouts, but then you mind wants to wander to new challenges, and that you like repeating this part of the cycle."

That is a very good observation, and is quite accurate, though I don't intentionally set out to repeat the cycle.  For years, V scale (the computer train thing), catered to this aspect. However, my simulator of choice (Microsoft Train Simulator) and the ancient support programs it needs in order to develop route concepts, is very long in tooth. Microsoft abandoned Train Simulator years ago, and the 3rd party vendors that created some of the foundational development/support programs have moved on. Thus, I have come to the conclusion when my old XP machine (on which the development/support programs run) gives up the ghost, that's it for me and V scale.

So, accepting the fact that I will eventually face the loss of V scale, I have been susceptible to the temptation of finding a different outlet for my TOC19 interest.  Seeing as I had all this HO TOC19 stuff left over from way back when, and seeing as I would have available bench work (this small room bench work), it seemed like the thing to do at the time. At least, that's my story an' I'm stickin' to it.

I've read and gave thought to the rest of your points, and they were all salient, and caused me to reflect on what I'm doing. Your input is very much appreciated, and very valuable to help me introspect to make sure I know where I'm at in this hobby. Which brings me back to two more things you mention that I'd like to expound upon a bit before I close.  I think my response will answer both of these points. Those two are these:

"...your overall plans for where you would like to go in this hobby. <snip> Every hour you spend on this current planning effort is one hour less that keeps you from having a functional railroad..."

I have pondered both of those points A LOT over the past years, especially since I'm not getting younger.  During that time, here's what I have come up with an answer to this one as it applies to me:

"...where you would like to go in this hobby."

I want to go where I find fun. Pure and simple. If that means I'm having fun tinkering with a KC&G engine at hobby desk, or building some layout bench work (IF I ever get a contractor to finish my out building!!!), or reading this forum... whatever... I want it to be FUN, first and foremost. 

This is indeed, my hobby. It's not my artistic outlet, or other more serious endeavor, it's where I explore and enjoy my love and fascination of historical trains, be they diesel or steam.

Actually, my wife helped me to accept that about myself and hobbies. For decades, I was "progress oriented" and berated myself when I wasn't making progress. After seeing this for several years, Sharon basically said "lighten up Francis"... and she was right.  For the past several years, I have accepted that, for me, a hobby is about having fun.

That's why this...

"Every hour you spend on this current planning effort is one hour less that keeps you from having a functional railroad..."

...sounds way too much like "work" to me now.

My first priority is to have fun and enjoy what I'm involved in. In regards to model railroading, if meaningful progress gets made on a layout along the way... so much the better. If not, if I'm having fun doing what I'm doing, then as a hobby, it is serving its purpose.

And you're right, I don't have a lot of time at this point to devote to much of anything. That's why I'm still in a "seek and acquire" mode, and really don't expect a lot of noticeable progress on a layout until I retire in right at two years. If I don't make it to retirement, then I've had fun doing what I've done with model railroading. If do make it to retirement, then I'll enjoy doing whatever I end up doing with model railroading.  My "goal" at this point is have the expensive stuff purchased and waiting, and indulge in the bulk of the labor intensive stuff once I can start my "never ending weekend".

If it doesn't work out as planned... as long as I've enjoyed what I'm doing/have done, it has been beneficial as a hobby.

"I may be out of line in posting this, but since you have asked for feedback..."

Nope. Not out of line... like I said VERY thought-provoking and good questions were asked.  It was good for me to articulate "the way I am" for myself as well!

All fer now!

Andre

   Has some some good points. But dreaming during lulls of interest has it's merits. Preparing a good strategy doesn't mean you have to use it

I don't know whether it was my long time model railroad friend that said it first... or John Allen... or who... but it has rung true for me over the past several years:

"Dreaming, is a big part of the fun of model railroading."

Hi Andre:

Thanks for taking the time to reply.  I took a V-day today to recuperate from a wonderful, but busy weekend, and this seems like quite a fine way to "chill out" before trying to motivate myself to go downstairs and work on the railroad. 

The nice thing about this forum is the exchange of modeling ideas, and thoughts surrounding how we each approach the hobby.  Your post also gives me a lot to consider, particularly this notable quote:

"Dreaming, is a big part of the fun of model railroading."

Absolutely no argument with this statement.  However, at least for myself, I struggle to find a balance between dreaming and doing.  I've been dreaming about the Spokane Southern 3.0 since the day the wife and I moved into our house in 1989.  It has always cheesed me off that I had this huge crawlspace that was virtually useless.  Cheap way to build a house, not worth a darn to a model railroader.  Spokane Southern 1.0 had a simple loop that connected two parts of the railroad sitting in the crawl.   Railroad was fun at that point, and I very quickly realized though that I did not have enough staging, enough towns, and a long enough run.  So much for good planning on my part. 

So, the dreaming started, and my friend Warren and I settled on a double deck plan that increased my staging by 80%, and allowed me to start running my railroad in true point to point fashion.  Spokane Southern 2.0 came to fruition. Once again had fun, but I had too much track tucked further back in the crawl space, particularly my 2nd staging yard. 

When the wife and I decided we wanted to upgrade our house, and make this our final resting place (even with Illinois BS to put up with), a really significant amount of dreaming started.  The dream of a huge basement where the crawl space was became a reality.  Now I had to fill that space.  Along comes Spokane Southern 3.0  Filling that space is a lot of work.  Not all of it is enjoyable ( I HATE putting in suspended ceilings), particularly the part in the remaining part of my crawl space where the current 2nd staging yard resides.  I'm darn lucky to have friends that like building this behemoth,  and moving the ball towards the goal line.

Now that I have an operational main line again, and I can actually go downstairs and run and enjoy the trains, it gets hard to get motivated to get back to finishing layout fascia, continuing on with scenery, and then the herculean task that I've been putting off for far too long, detailing and weathering motive power and equipment, and building the huge stash of Intermountain, Red Caboose, Proto 2000, Sunshine, Westerfield, and F&C kits I've accumulated over the years.  That work I foresee as the actual "retirement" work, but I struggle to find the enthusiasm to get the layout to the point where that is all that is remaining to do.

So, in my case, I'd like to amend the quote above.  "Dreaming is a big part of the fun of model railroad, but at some point, we need to stop dreaming, and start doing."   One other quote has always struck with me when it comes to modeling, particularly since I want to attract people over to my railroad and make it come alive as a miniature railroad, with TT&TO, and the rules, jobs, and discipline that comes with it*.

"Nobody ever made a reputation out of what they were going to do".

Your wife imparted great wisdom:

" After seeing this for several years, Sharon basically said "lighten up Francis"... and she was right. "

Ahhhhhh, the wisdom of Sgt. Hulka, founder of the Hulkaburger franchise.     This rings even closer to home for me, since my mother's maiden name was Hulka.    When it came to dreaming, my mother wasn't much for that, her motto was:

"Busy hands are happy hands".

That quotation used to go down really well with my father who did his daily job, and then mostly wanted to come home and relax with a ball game on the TV.  I'm convinced that the prime reason he started model railroading was to have a hobby that satiated my mom's desire for him to have "busy hands".  My dad was a darn good modeler, and one of the fussiest carpenters I've ever known.  By the time I arrived on the scene, he had all the track and benchwork completed based on the "Great South Pass" railroad in "Model Railroader" back in the 50s.  Things didn't really move very far along though until I caught the bug.  I may not have caught the bug if it wasn't for Mom pushing for "busy hands".  Dad taught me the skills, but I had the passion.  Wish I had more of my dad's skills to compliment the passion.  

But lets circle back to wisdom imparted by wives.  My wife has always been very supportive of my hobby, and has allowed me to actively involve our children in the hobby over the years to the point where just about all of our vacations centered around something railroad related.  Our whole family fell in love with Colorado also, particularly the Durango area.  We did the entire "narrow gauge loop" tour, and have been to Durango, and Chama numerous times. 

With that said, she too has to occasionally tell me to "take a chill pill" when it comes to this hobby.   But, on Tuesday and Friday nights when I work either on my railroad, on a friends railroad, or attend an op-session in the Chicago area, she is also the one that pushes me to get off the couch when I'd rather fall asleep on the couch, as she knows that I will not be happy not getting something done on my railroad or my friend's railroad, or enjoying an op session.   She doesn't want to listen to me whining about how I didn't get something done, and she helps me find nice balance.  Hope she won't mind putting up with me 24/7/365 once we are both retired. 

And now for the asterisked * item above. 

I've always wanted to have an operations oriented railroad, but what really motivates me is to get my railroad to a point where I can do formal TT&TO sessions, complete with a dispatcher job, and probably a "super operator" that functions as the various station operators.  I love the "exchange" that comes from dictating and receiving train orders, creating clearance forms, and creating switch lists.  I want to have my yard operations to be more formal, with a yardmaster giving switch lists to the crews.  

So the whole facet of this hobby, were people start "modeling jobs" keeps me going to get to the point with the railroad that I can do that.  I'm not sure how effectively my layout will be able to pull this off, but that will be the journey to find out. 

If it doesn't work out, there it is either going to be Spokane Southern 4.0, or maybe I will explore some of the other "dreams" that have taken hold over the years:

-  Iron ore modeling in the Hurley / Ironwood / Bessemer area, to Ashland WI. 

-  NP / Soo Iron ore operations to / from the Cuyuna Range.

-  Various other possibilities on the GN or NP, but restricting operations to one or the other, and limiting the MP&E to what actually ran on those operations during the transition era. 

I'm sorry to hear that the V Scale opportunities are more or less ending with XP.   I had hoped to do at least the iron ore operation of the C&NW between Ashland WI to the Ironwood area.  Hopefully something else comes along to take the place of MSTS. 

Regards,

Jerry

 I think Mixy is slowly trying to integrate a VR program into a future SCRAM. Whether it's just visual 3d, or a 2d test run like others use, or includes some operational fun is a complete mystery, but there is at least some hope beyond battle train games. Graphics being truly worthy of the area in question is doubtful, but anything short of a good picture is asking a lot.

gnnpnut posted:

I don't have MRADD*, I .............................................

 

 

 

Jerry

 

Whoa, do they have that in 2 rail O to go?????  What a beast...er, aaa I mean beauty!

Greetings Andre,

From what I can gather, you like steam and you like diesel. That obviously says to me: STEAM/DIESEL TRANSITION era for the main layout, and you have room for your 19th century fantasy in your computer room. Pick a CLASS 1 road you like and varied and interesting equipment will come with it. The good news is, with HO darn near everything has been made. GOOD LUCK!

Simon

Wow... LOTS has happened since I last updated. Out of time for tonight. I'll be back sometime tomorrow night or so and get you all caught up on the latest episode of "As The Wheel Turns". (Insert corny organ music here.)

All fer now!

Andre

I'm BAAAaaack!

And boy have the events been happening. I'll try to keep this short (yeow, right!) and hit some of the high points first.

* I have firmly decided to have two layouts: One smaller one and a medium sized one.

* The diesels will return to this small and cramped space where they were originally envisioned. My thinking on that is that it will be more convincing to have tight and confined urban industrial switching on a small layout than trying to cram in mountains and "expanse".

* The steam theme will get the new 16' x 20' out building.

* The steam theme is moving to where my interests have been firmly residing for the more than the past couple of decades : Colorado.  Modeling the Ozarks was a long time ago in my modeling past (some 30+ years), and my interests and tastes in steam have become much more defined.

* I will be freelancing my own "Colorado & Pacific". I will only be modeling a small portion of the imagined "bigger" Colorado & Pacific system.  I will be modeling a helper district with helper grades both directions. The era will be the late 1870s into the 1880s. The concept is that the C&P was the FIRST standard gauge railroad to attempt penetrating the Rockies, several years prior to the Colorado Midland. Given the silver/gold mining boom, the race is on to reach the mining hot spots as soon as practical, and the boom times are on along the C&P!

At this stage, I'm simply amassing the needed equipment and supplies for when the time comes my new 16' x 20' out building is ready to be occupied. I want enough stuff on hand to begin running some trains as soon as the track starts going down.

As posted in the "HONGZ Photo Fun Thread", here's a re-post of two of the pictures there, and perhaps some more thrown in for gits n' shiggles.

First is a look at "The Fleet" as it was a few days ago. Bear in mind that more rolling stock has arrived since, and more is headed my way, almost daily.

The rolling stock you're seeing above is basically el-cheapo AHM/Bachmann/Tyco train set stuff. The pieces will be given some quick attention in regards to Kadees mounted, some simple details added, and repainted/decaled and boom: Ready for the layout. The goal is a quick "good enuf" rolling stock fleet. The craftsman kits can be built later. The basic engine roster will be a small fleet of the RTR all-new Bachmann 4-4-0's as pictured above, which is DCC/Sound equipped. Another is headed my way, and more will be added over time.

I've also enjoyed returning to kit-bashing/kit-mingling steam locomotives that will be unique to my concept. I thoroughly enjoyed this aspect of modeling steam "back when" some 30 years ago. Here's an example of the first one on the work bench:

The above is a modified MDC 52" driver Mogul chassis onto which I have grafted on an AHM/Pocher "Reno" boiler, cab, cylinders/saddle, and pilot. The stack is from a Tyco "General".  Still much more to do (in good time), but the "basics" are coming together.

I've even started track planning, and have come up with a "Definite Maybe 1a" main line arrangement. Here's the way our kitchen table has been looking of late!

So, things are moving forward, and I'm satisfied with my decisions.

I am not worried about equally splitting my time between the two layouts, I will work on one or the other as mood inclines, if one gets more attention than the other, that's fine too. May the best layout win!

Bottom line: Win-win. Whether I'm working on my KC Lines concept here in my computer/hobby room, or out in my version of the Colorado Rockies working on my C&P theme, I'll be having fun.  Yup, win-win.

All fer now!

Andre