As for your original question I'm still waiting for the prices of select importers to be reduced by 10% after they used material and oil inflation as their justification for raising prices in 2009.
Well said. 
Killian 
VETERANS HOME - NORTHERN CALIFORNIA
POW/MIA YOU ARE NOT FORGOTTEN
The thought that all the materials will be made in the US is a pipe dream. Try to find many of the electronic components built here, it's a fool's errand. While it might actually be assembled here, all the parts will surely not be made here.
It is a start to bring some production back home, but let's not delude ourselves into thinking it'll be 100% US content. 
I'd like to see an actual breakdown of exactly what will truly be made here and what will still be imported. This could be little more than a marketing scheme.
John here is close to being right on here. We seem to discuss this every couple of months I want everybody to repeat after me, 99% of our trains will not be made in the USA anytime soon. I'm not willing to pay anymore then I do know. I also don't care where they are made, China, USA or in the middle of the Arabian dessert. As long as I get a quality product at a fair price. Mike Wolf has stated many times if production was moved to the USA, product cost would go up by 35%. Still willing to have it made here? I don't think so.
I would gladly pay a bit more for American made products.
"I also don't care where they are made, China, USA or in the middle of the Arabian dessert."
The main reason the USA is in so badly debt is millions of people buying cheap, "throw away when broke" items - sending our dollars to China and others - and not caring about the consequences to our country.
John
Could have bought a Hershey bar or two with that ten percent.
Jim
Originally Posted by david1:Mike Wolf has stated many times if production was moved to the USA, product cost would go up by 35%. Still willing to have it made here? I don't think so.
Apparently he is wrong, it only went up 10%.
If, the extra money does good for an American worker, then I'll go for it!
Bring back the prestige to America!!!
Ralph-RJL
Yep
Now, not all classic Lionel trains were made in the USA.
In the 1930's, some of the dies for some of the great trains were made in ITALY!
Now, here is another point. Germany has higher wages and heavier "EPA laws" thann we do. Yet they are the "strong man" of the euro. What gives?
Well done Lionel. I always get the Christmas car. It will be great that it's made in the USA!
Nick
quote:
Now, not all classic Lionel trains were made in the USA.
In the 1930's, some of the dies for some of the great trains were made in ITALY!
True, but where were the dies run?
Were the castings made in the USA? If so, then the trains were made in the USA.
Or complain about government taxes and spending priorities/levels.
As others have mentioned, I don't think that it is necessarily where an item is made, but how well that item is made. Sadly, the quality control on many items made in certain countries is often very poor, and in reality there is little that Lionel or others can do about that.
Shipping costs are not really an issue, as it doesn't cost that much more to move a container around the world than it does to move it cross-country. And you can get a lot of trains in a container!
A major advantage of having items assembled, even if not entirely manufactured, locally is that you can enforce a higher standard on finished goods quality and reduce the number of defective items that are released onto the market. This could also be done with imported product. But the costs of inspecting and testing every single item would be prohibitive for many markets.
Lionel has one of the best customer service operations that I have encountered in many a year, and they should be applauded for this. They really will do everything that they can to resolve any problems.
If manufacturing can be moved back to the USA, and initial quality control is improved by this action, then I for one would be happy to pay more.
The cost, in real terms, of model railway products today is far less than it was 50+ years ago, and the level of detail and features that we now expect as standard could only be dreamed of back then. So even with an extra 10-20% or so to have better quality, we would still be getting a bargain.
Originally Posted by david1:Mike Wolf has stated many times if production was moved to the USA, product cost would go up by 35%. Still willing to have it made here? I don't think so.
Apparently he is wrong, it only went up 10%.<<<
You're talking about assembling a simple four sided 6464 style boxcar..
Try comparing complicated Premier or VL steamers and see if it remains 7%-10%?
My guess is you'll have a hard time finding anyone with enough experience to build one from scratch at any price much less building it better.
Joe
The debate over 10% is 100% a truly American phenomenon in that everyone bemoans the loss of manufacturing here with lip service yet will not hesitate to buy the cheapest product on the shelf, scanning for bargains irregardless of where the item was made. We all do this. It seems more and more, we are at cross purposes and I am not speaking of politics but consumerism as it relates to value beyond tastes.
The 10% does not amount to much unless you are buying a dozen.
The price is secondary to (1) Is the product desirable? (2) Is it well made? (3) Can it be repaired when it eventually fails? (4) Does the manufacturer stand behind their products with a reasonable warranty? As far as modern toy trains as a product, it's a very entangled mix, as I see a great deal of it as "desirable junk". The desire for that colorful F7 outweighs any consideration of pragmatism, so we keep buying what we complain about. Its a merry go round. If all or some of this is missing, 10% adds insult to an eventual injury. Whether it is China or New Jersey where this stuff is made seems to be parsing the main issue, which is the intrinsic values the manufacturer attaches to the product itself. Its like an alcoholic that complains about the quality of beer, is he or she going to stop buying booze to force a change? So we have threads like this that go on and on with circular arguments on both sides.
To me, 100% American means the who deal is made in the USA: dies, parts, assembly.........
To me, 100% American means the who deal is made in the USA: dies, parts, assembly.........
Good luck. As someone who works for an American manufacturing company, it's pretty hard to find specific micro-processors from a US manufacturer.
Rusty
To me, 100% American means the who deal is made in the USA: dies, parts, assembly.........
Good luck. As someone who works for an American manufacturing company, it's pretty hard to find specific micro-processors from a US manufacturer.
Rusty
Exactly right! Get used to it.. the global economy has progressed way too far to even dream its possible to have a return of Lionel production as it was prior to 2001..
On a shelf in my basement you'll find a few scattered pieces of Pre 2001 100% made in USA Lionel production...All shelfqueens of a bygone era holding little value except as a reminder of a time in America that once was..
Joe
It may "just" be a 6464 boxcar but you have to start somewhere. That kind of attitude is held by so many and prevents our country from changing and correcting our course. Today a boxcar, tomorrow a caboose and then a tank car etc. At least they are making an effort in the right direction.
A lot of effort was put into making the "just" a 6464 boxcar an all American product. I think a bit of American pride over investment dollars has been invested and I truly applaud and support them for that. Hopefully that investment pays off enough to continue the trend in the future with more of thier product.
YEa, esp those chalky AreoBars MADE in MEXICO!
No wonder why there are BOGO coupons in the paper for that!
Went by the LHS today and ordered my Christmas and Christmas Coke car
All I have to say is all those folks that said they'd be first in line to buy them better order them or you won't see them keep this up.
Folks our turn is over! RIP American manufacturing. 
All I have to say is all those folks that said they'd be first in line to buy them better order them or you won't see them keep this up.
Right you are, Marty...and they better order them in substantial quantities.
Much as we all enjoy the "Made in U.S.A." mantra, my guess is that most hobbyists don't much care where the things are made as long as (1) they are of high quality, and (2) they are affordable (equates to "dirt cheap" for some). Of course, it's kind of hard to expect both 1 & 2 together, no matter where an item is made.
Allan
While I was in Imperial Trains today we had this same conversation. Folks must be willing to pay a little more. I know there are a few that are on my list. The new Christmas cars are pretty spectacular to say the least.
>>All I have to say is all those folks that said they'd be first in line to buy them better order them or you won't see them keep this up. <<
You make it sound as though the return to American outsourced production is a marketing gimmick to stir up sales..
Lets hope you're wrong.
My guess is the effort was made hoping it'll be good if sales end up about the same as similar imported RS. The boxcars selling on their merit, not on a short lived spurt that will eventually wear off as stateside assembly continues.
Hopefully, they see a real advantage to assemble RS here rather then offshore and expand the practice.
Joe
Folks our turn is over! RIP American manufacturing.
Tell that to my bosses...
We're preparing to add a second shift and move into a new facility next year that is 2 and 1/2 times as big as where we are now.
Rusty
No I make it sound as if folks are not going to buy 'em, they won't bother with any additional costs to make 'em here. No gimmick.
If you want to get a head start on American Made trains, start here:
http://www.weavermodels.com/s12Catalog.pdf
A quick look at the manufacturers websites show the following:
Atlas 50' PS1 Boxcar - $70 (Master Line)
Lionel 40' (?) PS1 Boxcar - $70
MTH 50' PS1 Boxcar - $60 (Premier)
Weaver 40' PS1 Boxcar - $47
>>>No I make it sound as if folks are not going to buy 'em, they won't bother with any additional costs to make 'em here. No gimmick<<
I'm not sure there is an additional cost.. My guess is with something so simple as a boxcar, it may even cost less when its 10,000 mile journey is stripped out.
In case you haven't noticed, Lionel has a long history of inconsistant pricing.
Could easily be an up charge for the "Made in America" novelty.
Joe
No thanks, $65 to $70 listed price for a non-detailed traditional size boxcar is over the top crazy, even if it says made in the USA.
No it's not. I would be happy to pay another ten percent to put some Americans to work.
I was going to produce a long dissertation of my opinion on the subject, but I like you guys so suffice to say to me this is a no brainer.
A major reason that I buy Weaver is that the stuff I buy from them is made in America. However, I do notice that the rolling stock trucks are made in China. How much needs to be actually made in America to be able to say "Made in America"? Just got their wood-side gondolas, and I think that they're great.
Alan
happy to pay the extra for american made.
Interesting about what constitutes an American car these days. Some data I saw recently stated that NO American car has 100% American parts. The best there is is in the 90% range. In fact one popular GM model is made completely in Germany. My 2010 Honda Odyssy is typical, assembled in US with an American emgine and drive train contains 75% of it's parts made in the US. My Voyager was made in Canada when the Germans owned Chrysler. Which is the real American car?
Folks our turn is over! RIP American manufacturing.
Tell that to my bosses...
We're preparing to add a second shift and move into a new facility next year that is 2 and 1/2 times as big as where we are now.
Rusty
I have only one thing to tell your bosses. "THANK YOU FOR BEING GOOD CITIZENS!!!!"
If you want to get a head start on American Made trains, start here:
http://www.weavermodels.com/s12Catalog.pdf
A quick look at the manufacturers websites show the following:
Atlas 50' PS1 Boxcar - $70 (Master Line)
Lionel 40' (?) PS1 Boxcar - $70
MTH 50' PS1 Boxcar - $60 (Premier)
Weaver 40' PS1 Boxcar - $47
In order to do a fair comparison, you have to disassemble these cars and examine the amount of material used, detail level and complexity of assembly.
In case you haven't noticed, the Lionel "Made in America" 6464 boxcars (much less complex in construction than any of the above) are $64.99 each. And it's not just the cost of decoration that raises the price to that level. If they were boxcar red and lettered Pennsylvania or New York Central, they'd maybe be a couple of bucks less.
The Weaver B&O and Milwaukee Road boxcars are $72 bucks each and that cost is not just because they're made in China. Both are much more highly detailed than the PS1.
Don't forget the tooling for the Weaver PS1 boxcar is well over 30 years old...
If Weaver had to tool up for the 40' PS1 boxcar today, I doubt it would still MSRP for $47.
Rusty
Rusty,
In order to do a fair comparison, you have to disassemble these cars and examine the amount of material used, detail level and complexity of assembly.
The only thing it this statement that would be of any consequence would be the level of detail. I looked at the photos of each car they had on their website and all 4 "appeared" to be close to one another in detail (don't know about the underframe).
In case you haven't noticed, the Lionel "Made in America" 6464 boxcars (much less complex in construction than any of the above) are $64.99 each. And it's not just the cost of decoration that raises the price to that level. If they were boxcar red and lettered Pennsylvania or New York Central, they'd maybe be a couple of bucks less.
Don't know what to say here...maybe Lionel is gouging the consumer?!?!?
The Weaver B&O and Milwaukee Road boxcars are $72 bucks each and that cost is not just because they're made in China. Both are much more highly detailed than the PS1.
Agree they're more expensive, that's why I choose the PS1. i don't know if any of the other makers offer the B&O or Milwaukee cars.
Don't forget the tooling for the Weaver PS1 boxcar is well over 30 years old...
Do you mean they're still using a 30 years old set of dies or that the design is 30 years old? If the design is 30 years old and still gives an accurate representation of a prototypical PS1 boxcar, I don't see an issue. I doubt they're using 30 year old dies. they may have made new dies from the old design for all we know. A good mold wears out, a good design never wears out (ya'll can quote me on that ).
If Weaver had to tool up for the 40' PS1 boxcar today, I doubt it would still MSRP for $47.
We just don't know that do we? I do expect you're right, but if I wanted to buy a PS1 boxcar right now today, and what I listed is all that's available, the Made In The USA Weaver car will fit the criteria of this post.
I've got cars from all the makers I mentioned, each car was bought because of the type of car, prototypical fidelity, and the RR name on the side, not who made it.
The sad truth is I only have so many hobby dollars to spend. I can't be buying cars just because it's made in the USA.
If a car is made in the USA, that's not going to be the only reason I would consider buying it. It has to fit into my RR "theme". Now if the 4 makers I mentioned all bring out the same car at the same time, let's say this one:
and only one of them had it made in the USA, I would buy that one over the other 3 if it cost 10% more (maybe even 20%).
The good shup US Manufacturing is continuting to take on water. In the world of tools all of the following companies have moved at least some of their production off shore:
Craftsman
Mayhew
MAC
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