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Originally Posted by gunny:

Tiffany,

          Why not Legacy and a couple of 180 watt bricks?

Gunny

Great for Lionel Command control. Limited if you want to run Conventional or MTH PS-2/3. Not being a Legacy expert, I'm assuming you need to add a TPC to run conventional too. MRC $256, two 180W Powerhouse bricks $155.74 plus one TPC 400 $183 ($338 total).

 

Gilly

Last edited by Gilly@N&W

John, I'll retract on the PS2/3 statement. You are correct, sorry.

 

Tiffany, hands on throttle is precisely what I was meaning to express when I made my mention of MTH PS-2.

 

I will not argue that the MTH Z4000 is one of the most popular modern transformers. Provided with adequate power drops, I am convinced that 135W per channel is more than enough for the average sized home layout. We have excellent power distribution on our 20x24 modular club layout and a MTH Z1000 has never had a problem running anything I threw at it.

 

Gilly

Last edited by Gilly@N&W
Originally Posted by gunrunnerjohn:

Gilly, you confused me, I thought I was going to get some deep insight into something I'd missed with DCS.

 

 

Nope, I just typically think 180W is overkill. They have their place, but are not a requirement on my 14x34 home layout. Actually, I have two 135W Powerhouse bricks powering my TIU. My MRC Dual power is still there when I want throttle time with my conventional roster.

TIU has a 180 watt limit per channel.  If you run in passive mode there isn't a limit per se.

 

MRC is a nice unit, smaller footprint than the 4000.  The transformer should work out to about a dollar a watt.  If you are paying more, you may be paying too much.  Alos, PW supplies ratings are based on power consumed at the wall outlet side.  Modern supplies refer to power available to the track.  Aka a pw zw is 275 watts of power consumed from the outlet before the breaker trips.  It will max out at about 180 watts on the track side, sustained output.

Originally Posted by Gilly@N&W:
Originally Posted by gunrunnerjohn:

Gilly, you confused me, I thought I was going to get some deep insight into something I'd missed with DCS.

 

 

Nope, I just typically think 180W is overkill. They have their place, but are not a requirement on my 14x34 home layout. Actually, I have two 135W Powerhouse bricks powering my TIU. My MRC Dual power is still there when I want throttle time with my conventional roster.

Since I run them into each channel of the TPU, they conveniently match the ratings of the TPU channels.

I have 3 of them for conventional control.  The layout is divided up into 3 districts, 2 levels each.  The MRC duals have been flawless.  I use ZW's for all other power needs.

Yes, the horn/whistle and bell buttons do drag the speed down a tad, but that's one of the compromises I've accepted in making this choice, or in postponing any rush to DCS/TMCC. 

 

One of the reasons I selected the MRC for control is their service policy...it's second to none...period!  I work at the LHS...14 years since retiring from the pension-producer.  In those years we've sent MRC powerpacks back for service several times, but not often!  We and the customer have NEVER been charged a cent except for the shipping to get it to them.  The most incredible example several years ago was an old DC dual powerpack in a copper-tone finish.  We estimated it was about 15 years old at the time, had heavy signs of use, even a few paint drips on the case.  One throttle exhibited no speed control.  The customer was willing to pay the service cost.  It came back from MRC repaired......no charge!!  Their stated policy is 5 years, but I can say without reservation that they have set a service benchmark for their power supplies that simply cannot be beat.  We sell more MRC powerpacks than any other brand in just telling of this experience.  In fact, several Lionel customers, exasperated by early problems with the CW-80 in sets, gladly paid a premium for a larger MRC powerpack.

 

So, FWIW, that's my/our experience.

 

And, yes, if you are patient and diligent you can find some really good prices below MSRP on the Dual.  We discount all MRC powerpacks.  Whenever possible, support your LHS, please.

 

KD

 

 

Over the time I have been following this Web it seems to me that there are two groups of operators. For want of better descriptions I will call them "Old school and New school". Old school prefers to have the handle on the transformer to fall back on to operate their trains. They normally run one engine per transformer output handle and turn the power off to trains parked on sidings. New school tends to rely on the remote control for everything. All engines are powered at all times. This requires huge amounts of power and can cause large amounts of wear on such things as smoke units. Yes, Yes there are those that have a mixture of both schools but if you prefer transformers with handels and turn off power to sidings you are probly old school and if you like to do everything with the remote you are probably new school.

 

Now as to the power source. For the old school person the MRC is a very good transformer. The clean output will allow operation of all engins without trouble in a conventional mode. The analog meters are easier to interpret than the digital as trends can be followed easier. The Z-4000 is a good second in that it offers more power. Lionel's entry is a poor third since it is mainly a manual controller for its TMCC system. For the new school people the 180 watt brick can't be beat. When coupled with a TPC or a TIU it can give you the necessary welding current needed to operate all those engines at the same time.

 

The question is what school do you belong to? Both are equally vallid to those that operate them. I wonder how much current (Amps) a full size GG1 draws through the small wire they use for the gantry feed. I bet the answer would suprise most of us.

 

Al

If the MRC transformer is the one you want, you'll have a hard time beating the MB Klein (ModelTrainStuff) price, and they are good folks to deal with.

 

Personally, I prefer the MTH Z-4000 because I'm able to see the digital readouts from a distance, and that is particularly helpful if one is operating trains via command control.

 

I don't own any MRC transformers, but have used their DC power packs with other scales for many years and have never had a problem with them.

Originally Posted by HOSO&NZ:

I wonder how much current (Amps) a full size GG1 draws through the small wire they use for the gantry feed. I bet the answer would suprise most of us.

 

Al

The overhead contact wire is not really that small and the entire compound catenary is available to carry current to the contact wire. The typical contact wire is the equivalent of AWG 4/0 which is about a half inch in diameter. With the overhead catenary supplying the standard 11,000 VAC, a GG1 delivering its maximum 4,600 continuous horsepower, would draw about 300 amps.  While GG1s were seldom required to operate at their maximum continuous rating, they could draw up to 700 amps for brief periods of time such as when starting a heavy train.

Originally Posted by Southwest Hiawatha:
Performed better in exactly what way? Please be specific.
 
Originally Posted by Liam:

I have 3 Z1000s and 1 Z750 Lionel just had a video that said chopped sine wave works better with new engines. I HAD to try it compared to a ZW the Z1000 performed much better.

couplers and smoke worked better on modern lionel and mth engineS with chopped since wave.

I have the AH501, which is the 135-watt single version, and it runs everything I have quite well. I run all conventional equipment, and have found that a pure sine wave is better. There is slightly less smoke output, but with the chopped wave of the CW80 and Z1000, motors hum and buzz, and also run hotter. Pullmor motors don't like the chopped wave at all- they sound like coffee grinders and run very warm.
Originally Posted by Kerrigan:

Doesn't the MRC have a limit of 7amps per throttle vs the Z4000 at 10amps per throttle?

Sure, but the Z4000 is a 400 watt transformer, so that would make sense.   I have both, and they're both nice transformers.

 

One note on the MRC.  When I was down at MTH for the ASC classes, they mentioned that for some reason the MRC Pure Power transformers caused issues with PS/2 at times.  They didn't have a reason, and the transformer is basically a large toroid core with windings that are tapped by the two handles.  It's a mystery how that could affect DCS, but that was stated.

 

 

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