Is "S" Scale.....?

Lou Palumbo of The Underground Railroad Shop has calles S, "HO on steroids".

S, is of course, the perfect scale. 

 

We say so ourselves!

 

Rusty

I have an American Flyer tank car which I mounted on O-gauge trucks, and it fits in with my O27 trains pretty well. And Marx made a series of 3/16 scale cars for O-gauge, so in some respects S scale is close to "conventional" O-gauge.

When I was a boy several friends in the immediate neighborhood had trains - some Lionel and three of us American Flyer. I realize now that the guys who had Lionel sets all had '0-27' equipment so other than the sharper curves and better whistles, I didn't realize that mine was a different 'scale' than the smaller Lionels (Erie Alcos, 2037 Steamers, and the like). This finally dawned on when I began to deal in trains at my hobby shop in the early 1990s!

S seems closer to O than to HO.  Sure S runs on two rails like HO but it also had die cast steam and smoking engines with sound like O.  It also had one dominant manufacturer like O.

Historically, Flyer developed S-scale after WWII as a "more realistic" O-gauge.  HO wasn't really part of the equation at the time.

O 1/48

 

S 1/64

 

HO 1/87

 

Looks like a bit closer to O to me!

 

Simon

ace do you think you can post a pic of that tank car?

Sorry I don't have my car available for a photo right now, but it was the same as this, which I think is one of the commonplace AF cars. Lionel O-gauge trucks looked oversize on it so I used some other unknown plastic O-gauge trucks (older Atlas?) with smaller wheels and a plastic knuckle that mates with the Lionel knuckle. The car looks only slightly smallish with my other O27 cars.

I don't think Mark is trying to "dis" S.  Anyone who's been in S for any length of time is familiar with the "identity crisis" that S has. 

 

Because S had (until recently) only a token of production by a major model train manufacturer, S was considered more of a "Secret" scale.  But with Lionel ramping up and breaking away from "traditional" American Flyer and MTH's purchase of S Helper Service, things should change over the next few years.

 

Some S Scalers in particular tend to be a little miffed that S Scale is joined at the hip with American Flyer. 

 

I say, "So what?"  Flyer, HiRail, Scale, it's all good.

 

They used to drone on on how S is the "scratch-builder's scale," mostly because if you wanted something, you had to scratch build it.  I always thought that was a losing slogan because 1) people scratch build in the other scales and 2) it does little to entice, new blood to the scale.

 

The "Perfect Scale" slogan that some of us use nowadays may be a little grandiose, but it suggests that there is a sweet spot between the "heft" of O Scale and the compactness of HO scale.

 

So, S is neither large HO or small O.  We are a in a class by ourselves. 

 

Two rails. 

 

AC, DC, TMCC, DCC and now DCS. 

 

The sweet spot.

 

The perfect scale.

 

Rusty

Thanks, Rusty, for "coming to my defense".

 

Herb,I wasn't trying to "deprecate" S at all. I'm a little surprised by your strong,somewhat negative reaction ("BS post"). As I work more in this scale, (having been in S for only a year or so),I've come to realize that are elements that remind me of both HO and O.

 

That's all there was to it.Simply musing from the Central Coast while the wind blows 60 mph. 

 

Mark (in Oregon) 

I've modelled in HO (mostly), N, and now O-gauge three-rail. I have one S-gauge car adapted to O27. Tinkered with HOn30 a little bit. Not to "deprecate" any of them by way of comparisons. They are all interesting in their own ways and we should be open-minded towards modellers in all scales and gauges.

 

After being involved with N-gauge, when I went back to HO it seemed like S-gauge ... but now O-gauge has given me a new angle of interest in the hobby !

 

Sorry Mark, I thought you were an active  O Gauger poking fun. Please excuse.

Herb Wasserman

In the mid 1990's I was stationed at Beale AFB and used to attend shows in Sacramento.  I remember one show at the California State RR Museum that had an S gauge layout set up on the balcony overlooking the museums Cab Forward.  A Cab Forward was running on the layout;  the S model locomotive gave you the sense of the prototypes size, but it still looked good on the layout.  HO doesn't quite do the trick and O gauge articulateds seem to overwhelm most layouts, even with 0-72 curves.

Good point Brady.  S scale just looks right, not broad gauge like 2 rail O yet hefty too!  I've never had locos perform like my SHS stuff...creep around the layout at one mph. 
Admittedly, the lack of ready built buildings  forces me to build it if I want it.  I'm coming along on my kit/scratched coal mine and actually enjoying it.  Sort of!

John,

 

And you'll have a unique structure not seen on any other layout. 

 

Brady

No worries, Herb. Thanks for the clarification.

 

Wind gusts now to 98 mph at Yaquina Head Lighthouse...

 

Mark in Oregon

Sometimes I think of my O27 trains as oversized S scale on broad gauge. Maybe like Argentina-Chile 5'6" gauge.

 

S scale has the benefit of a definite 1/64 standard, while "O-gauge" is all over the place with different scales. Part of the toy train heritage. If I want to get fussy about scale, I still have HO to tinker with.

When I was in 2 rail O I was constantly bothered by the "wide gauge" aspect and that most every available wore 'high water pants', that is, set to high on their trucks.  MTH/Atlas would release a detailed beauty, only to have a very noticible gap between frame and truck.   Jim Weaver (from Atlas) and I had a "discussion" over that issue.   Then there's the "china drive".  Thankfully, none of these issues are "S" items.

Meant to say 'locomotive' in there someplace.  Duh!

Or, 3/16" scale running on "O" track, precisely what Flyer did with their prewar "3/16 scale" trains.

Some 0-27 can be used with S, as Rusty's recent pictorial shows..

 

https://ogrforum.com/d...ent/9173460013738089

 

 

 

 

The first AF postwar steam engines were modified "O" from before WWII, in other words, "S" size running on "O" track. They were then modifed to run on "S" track in 1946, and the width of the diecast part of the engine remained "O" in scale.

It was the other way around,  3/16" scale(S - 1:64) models were run on "O", and after the war Gilbert changed the track gauge to match the models.  I am not aware of any Flyer narrow gauge models.

I seem to recall, I think it was in one of the Thouy-McComas books, the old-time stuff like the Franklin 4-4-0 and passenger cars were designed by Ed Alexander so they could be used as narrow gauge models, but for O gauge.  It's one of the reasons the Franklin is oversized for S.

 

I guess this was an attempt to capture two markets.

 

Rusty

I think I have one of those locos.  I will do some measurements and see what scale it's closest to!

Yes, and to run on "O" they had to be made wider than scale 1:64. That is why these engines overhang the "S" track on each side.

Not me - I wish there was more American Flyer style (i.e. "toy train") available. I like "scale" too and I have a couple really nice River Raisin and P-B-L (Sn3) locomotives but I really want to build a TOY train layout. I really wish i could buy brand new American Flyer track (and rubber roadbed ) along with locomotives and rolling stock that has similar level of detailing as American Flyer used to have.

Where does K-line's Allegheny fit it, 1:58 scale? Letter?

Apparently it's 1:58 scale on O-gauge, between S and O, that makes it SO-SO scale.

makes sense.

"JOHNSONS RUBBER ROADBED" makes American Flyer type Tinplate S Gauge Rubber Roadbed.. 

I popped over from the 3R forum to see if there was any information about the possibility of just switching out trucks to convert a piece of rolling stock from S to O without it looking completely ridiculous.  The very first thread I click on just happens to feature that very topic, so that's terrific.

 

These are the two I'm going to convert, once I get my hands on them:

www.lionel.com/Products/Finder...roductNumber=6-48531

www.lionel.com/Products/Finder...roductNumber=6-48827

 

 

 

AMS

It's a little narrow, but if the O gauge trucks will clear the end steps I think the depressed center flat would look good in 0-27. The Flyer boxcar might be too small. Take a look at this Flyer boxcar next to a Lionel Scout boxcar converted to S.

.

BTW the Flyer 636 Erie flat might be easier to find and less expensive, just make sure it's the die cast version and has both brakewheels. 

 

 

Brady

That comparison pic is very helpful, thank you.  Seeing them side by side, I agree the boxcar might be a bit too small.

 

I really like the bold road markings on that M&StL boxcar, but that's a hefty price tag for something I'm going to mod... may have to rethink that one.

 

Thanks again!

This goes against everything I hold sacred, encouraging the upward conversion, but there's always the American Models box car. 

 

The Lionel "Scout" boxcar (converted to S) vs. AM:

 

AM's MStL boxcar:

http://www.americanmodels.com/_photos/0543-078.jpg

http://www.americanmodels.com/...40.foot.box.std.html

 

$38.95.  Available direct only for the present.  You'd have to build a new underfame, though.

 

Rusty

A few weeks ago, several folks provided some thoughts about turning an S car into O.  I know that's basically sacrilege, so thanks for being kind about it.  

 

I found the car I wanted and swapped out the S trucks with a set of MTH trucks I had on hand.  As expected, it looks right at home with some traditional O pieces and too small alongside scale items.

 

On another note, this is the first time I've had an S scale product in my hands, and I have to say I'm impressed with both the feel and the look.  You folks may be onto something! 

Hi ams,

 

That's something we've know for years!  But hey, it's all fun, no matter how many rails your trains have to run on....

 

And if you don't want the trucks and wheels, either send them my way, or hang on to them until you decide to come over to S.    Either way, have fun.  That's what it's all about, isn't it?

 

Jerry

Running S in Wayne, MI