Is there a source for Alco PA/FA scale pilots?

Hey, Pete!

Its on my radar to do, but I haven't designed them yet.  I was thinking of something similar to what I did with the Lionel F units...

Thanks,

- Mario

PS - Before you ask... No, @Norm Charbonneau.

An insert like that would work. I was thinking of machining something like that out of brass but the compound curves would not be so easy.

A complete pilot would be better though if you plan to fix it to the body, otherwise the bottom edge is about 2 feet off the rail.

Keep me posted. I am doing an MTH PA and Lionel FA.

Pete

Hey Mario,
I would buy at least 2 PA pilots!

Norton posted:

An insert like that would work. I was thinking of machining something like that out of brass but the compound curves would not be so easy.

A complete pilot would be better though if you plan to fix it to the body, otherwise the bottom edge is about 2 feet off the rail.

Keep me posted. I am doing an MTH PA and Lionel FA.

Pete

As am I... eventually.

Hey, if @Ron H would just cast his, we'd be all set!

I could 3d print or cast in soft alloy these pilots. They were hand made and soldered from pictures and measurements for ATSF PAs. I made both types of pilots as modified by the Santa Fe. I have no idea of what kind of demand or acceptable price for the pilots. Any advice would be appreciated.

Also, if one is going to really 3rscale these you need an ATS shoe, brake tubing and correct radio antennas. Seen in the first photo.

Did the Alco PA and FA have the same pilot (and nose contour) in real life?  Somehow I think each would have its own part.

Note that Weaver's all-plastic FA made in the '90s had a fixed pilot.  It was light and fragile, but maybe it could serve as a master for a brass add-on detail part?

Ted S posted:

...Note that Weaver's all-plastic FA made in the '90s had a fixed pilot.  It was light and fragile, but maybe it could serve as a master for a brass add-on detail part?

That’s my plan, to use the Weaver pilot as the master, or at least the prototype, with only a few detail changes. One issue is that the early Lionel & MTH have the anticlimber cast into the shell, and the newer Legacy PAs and FAs have the anticlimber on the pilot. 

It’s going to be a lot of work. 

MTH: (and early Lionel)

ATS shoe included...

First pass. This is a piece of brass pipe bent around and overlapping the opening.

Next will be brass or aluminum machined to fit into the opening plus a piece to extend the height.

The goal:

Pete, here’s the info on lowering the MTH units:

https://ogrforum.com/...and-early-lionel-pas

Thanks. 

-Mario

Thanks for the link Mario. Great work!

Pete

The thing that bugs me is the Lionel FAs don't have the anticlimber.

Doug

postmastermc posted:

The thing that bugs me is the Lionel FAs don't have the anticlimber. 

Doug 

The early PAs, MTH and Lionel, molded the anticlimber on the body nose, above the pilot. If you look at the NH PA above, you see that the anticlimber is low. 

It is weird that Lionel didn’t put the anticlimber on the pilots on the FAs, when they did when they redesigned the PAs.

@postmastermc

if you’re feeling adventurous, you can swap the stock FA pilot (below in black) with the Legacy PA pilot (below in silver) and have the anticlimber cast in the pilot which would be a little more correct. 

These would be for the NYC TMCC1 equipped FA-2s. Your version may vary, and they may not be drop in. You may need to redrill, and paint, and chamfer. 

The problem is the Lionel pilots are high water when attached flush with the shell.  A spacer doesn't look right on the later shells. I think if Mario can mock up and 3 d print a correct pilot, that would be fabulous.

Why not put the spacer on the bottom?  Are these newer Lionel pilots available for reasonable purchase?  I would convert two of them to brass in a heartbeat.  I hate making anti climbers.

I am watching this thread hoping Mario will print these pilots...no pressure Mario.  I have to ask about the anticlimber.  This outcropping from the pilot prevented trainmen from climbing up the nose of the engine??? Thanks for the education.  

T4TT posted:

I am watching this thread hoping Mario will print these pilots...no pressure Mario.  I have to ask about the anticlimber.  This outcropping from the pilot prevented trainmen from climbing up the nose of the engine??? Thanks for the education.  

in an accident it prevented other equipment from climbing up.

Engineer-Joe posted:

T4TT posted:

I am watching this thread hoping Mario will print these pilots...no pressure Mario.  I have to ask about the anticlimber.  This outcropping from the pilot prevented trainmen from climbing up the nose of the engine??? Thanks for the education.  

in an accident it prevented other equipment from climbing up.

Especially automotive vehicles struck at grade crossings. Nothing to do with preventing humans from "climbing up the nose".

Hot Water posted:

Engineer-Joe posted:

T4TT posted:

I am watching this thread hoping Mario will print these pilots...no pressure Mario.  I have to ask about the anticlimber.  This outcropping from the pilot prevented trainmen from climbing up the nose of the engine??? Thanks for the education.  

in an accident it prevented other equipment from climbing up.

Especially automotive vehicles struck at grade crossings. Nothing to do with preventing humans from "climbing up the nose".

 

Exactly...

From what I can interpret, the ribs of the early diesel anticlimber is designed to “mate” and interlock with another anticlimber’s ribs and deflect them to the side rather than allow them to vertically separate and have one diesel climb up into the nose structure and possibly into the cab area. 

As for the 3D printing... I’ve been talking with Norton and we may have a plan. 

Thanks,

Mario

It’s almost a shame cutting a perfectly good Weaver FA shell just to get the pilot. 

Almost. 😉 

You could make a mold using that and then cast them in resin. Then glue that one back on.

Pete

Yeah. Should be a good fit. 

Whatcha think @Norm Charbonneau & @Norton?

Looks perfect. I have material to make molds and cast them in resin. Not sure the resin I use is good for lost wax castings though. Might have to do some research.

I know some of the resins used for the laser type 3D printers can be used as casting masters but the pilot would have to be scanned and a file created for the printer.

Pete

CentralFan1976 posted:

Yeah. Should be a good fit. 

Whatcha think @Norm Charbonneau & @Norton?

oh, @Norton, BTW... We'll have to make a second one for the MTH PAs, since the ribbed anticlimber is already on the shell...

Thanks!

- Mario

Candle wax works, if your mold can handle the heat.  But the wax the pros use is not expensive.

MTH got the anti-climber in the wrong spot.  See Alco photos.  File it off, and use pilots like the above.

I just last month discovered that I can make decent anticlimbers.  See my Erie-built thread.

atta boy Mario!  Let us know when we can purchase them!!!

Here is one of my MTH PAs without anticlimber.  Simple brass construction.  Then after that is my new Erie-Built with my second attempt at art deco and anti climber.  I could make a metal master and lend it to somebody for a lost wax mold, but I would want a casting in return.  I have only two MTH units that need anti climbers, and with my new-found skill I can probably do without going into the casting business myself.  These are all metal - the PA is nickel silver with brass pilot and aluminum fuel tank.  The Erie-Built is part lost wax, part sand cast, and part ancient roof and trucks from the distant past when foundries were in every neighborhood.

Looks good Bob. These are easy enough to make, not so easy to match the paint unless you want to do a complete repaint. In the case of black, no problem. Any other shade you will spend more time matching paint than making the part.

The TT Gray pilot pictured above on the MTH PA is an example of trying to match paint. Ten tries and its still way off.

I have started making parts for my Lionel FA pilot. I used brass for the spacer so wire can be easily soldered to it for the anti climber. The aluminum filler will get machined to the proper width for the coupler opening.

Pete

A couple more fixed pilot pictures.

Here is the FA with its new modified pilot. In addition to the pieces shown above, the cast on cut levers were cut off and replaced, air hoses, and a Precision Scale working coupler added. Couplers replaced with 1 3/4" magnetics with the tumb tacks removed. Trailing A given a 1 3/4" electro coupler.

The trailing A is now powered and the B is waiting for sound and a smoke unit. 

Pete

Hi Mario. Did you finish this project? I searched your shapeways site but came up empty. 

Thanks 

Kevin 

@CentralFan1976

T4TT posted:

Hi Mario. Did you finish this project? I searched your shapeways site but came up empty. 

Thanks 

Kevin 

@CentralFan1976

Hi Kevin!

I haven’t designed anything to fit this pilot, yet. It’s been just trimming of the frame and the pilot to get it to sit flush. I was lucky enough to get the Kadee mounts with the pilot, so I hope I won’t have to for the front.

My next step is to lower the unit, even though it’s only about 3 scale inches too tall, I think it’ll look better 0.100” lower and get rid of the gap between the truck and the frame, and the fuel tank and the rail head.  This requires me to remove truck and bring them to work.  Hopefully this week. 

We have a separate post on the mods of me made for FAs here: 

https://ogrforum.com/...a-2-w-3rd-rail-pilot

thanks!

-Mario

Mario, 3 scale inches!?! Now that is sweating the details!

Another option might be to see if Scott Mann has any left from the 3rd Rail PA project. 

Depending on the specification for the PA, there were two styles of pilots for the project. 

GG1 4877 posted:

Another option might be to see if Scott Mann has any left from the 3rd Rail PA project. 

Depending on the specification for the PA, there were two styles of pilots for the project. 

That’s exactly what I’m doing... I’m using the Erie pilot, as they were already black. 

thanks!

-Mario