@Norton posted:I understood Neil Young had TMCC developed to help his kid(s) enjoy running trains. Not motivated by greed nor profits.
Pete
Both of Neil Young's children have cerebral palsy. TMCC was developed with the idea that it would make operating trains easier for his son Ben.
There will be a new level of price gouging which is the primary byproduct of any Lionel offering. I say don't buy and force them to get the H out of China. You only get L's attention by hitting their bottom line. Anything else is just a venture into Kansas with Dorothy. Light 'em up boys and girls. Smoke 'em if you got 'em.
@Jim Rawlings posted:There will be a new level of price gouging which is the primary byproduct of any Lionel offering. I say don't buy and force them to get the H out of China. You only get L's attention by hitting their bottom line. Anything else is just a venture into Kansas with Dorothy. Light 'em up boys and girls. Smoke 'em if you got 'em.
Wow!! A statement like this makes me want to buy even more Lionel. Now where is my copy of the 2021 volume 2 catalog….
@Jim Rawlings posted:There will be a new level of price gouging which is the primary byproduct of any Lionel offering. I say don't buy and force them to get the H out of China. You only get L's attention by hitting their bottom line. Anything else is just a venture into Kansas with Dorothy. Light 'em up boys and girls. Smoke 'em if you got 'em.
Don't you mean Oz? Kansas was the reality in the story.
I can't recall how many times I've seen posts here telling folks to stop buying as a protest so Lionel could move production back here.
Hasn't worked yet...
Rusty
@breezinup posted:Both of Neil Young's children have cerebral palsy. TMCC was developed with the idea that it would make operating trains easier for his son Ben.
That is 100% true!!….little do folks know, Neil Young is a champion for kids with Cerebral Palsy,….my son has it too, and the couple times we ran into him many moons ago he always took a moment to say hi, and asked how Brian was doing with the ( back them) newly formed Cab 1 ……cool dude for sure!..
Pat
@Rusty Traque posted:I can't recall how many times I've seen posts here telling folks to stop buying as a protest so Lionel could move production back here.
Hasn't worked yet...
Rusty
Because folks didn't stop buying...
@Rail Dude posted:Because folks didn't stop buying...
And they're not going to, so I'd give this up, it's a losing cause! 
@gunrunnerjohn posted:And they're not going to, so I'd give this up, it's a losing cause!
And if they eventually do, which is unlikely, it will be long after many of us are gone. I can't wait that long, so I will continue to buy what I want or need.
Pat
@Rail Dude posted:Because folks didn't stop buying...
That shouldn’t be surprise to anyone. Lionel is making great trains right now.😉
"There will be a new level of price gouging which is the primary byproduct of any Lionel offering."
Now there's an objective and fair statement 
. Are you the same Rawlings who served as MTH's legal adviser in the past? Just trying to clarify if there might be a conflict of interest or historical factor that might be relevant.
@Lou1985 posted:As a FYI all the standard gauge/tinplate tooling MTH has was owned by Williams. None of it is old prewar Lionel tooling.
Not so - many many new items were developed by MTH after the Williams tooling was bought by Mike in the late 1970's, and most of that is in China. Two horror stories - Chinese workers stealing tools and selling for scrap when the factory stopped paying them (this happened at least 10 years ago), and the last build (400E and state cars) tools held hostage by the Chinese.
Don't expect to see new standard gauge from either MTH or Lionel anytime soon.
Jim
Since I haven't comprehensively followed the individual MTH tooling sales, did anyone purchase the Tinplate Tooling?
@Dennis GS-4 N & W No. 611 posted:Since I haven't comprehensively followed the individual MTH tooling sales, did anyone purchase the Tinplate Tooling?
Dennis,
Doing this from memory from some of the many recent MTH threads, but I think the answer is "no" on the Tinplate. I'm sure others will weigh in if they know something.
@Rusty Traque posted:I can't recall how many times I've seen posts here telling folks to stop buying as a protest so Lionel could move production back here.
Hasn't worked yet...
Rusty
Well, someone on a forum is NOT going to tell me how to spend my money. (and I own from many players. MTH, Lionel, Atlas, K-line, Weaver, etc..)
@Jim Rawlings posted:There will be a new level of price gouging which is the primary byproduct of any Lionel offering. I say don't buy and force them to get the H out of China. You only get L's attention by hitting their bottom line. Anything else is just a venture into Kansas with Dorothy. Light 'em up boys and girls. Smoke 'em if you got 'em.
What I get from this statement is that you’ve run out of train money and so everyone else should stop spending their money because you’re losing ground in the race to see who has the most stuff in their last will and testament.
One person's "price gouging" is another person's 'business decision'. The problem is when you are in a limited market like these trains you don't have the alternatives you do with other products. If you don't like Lionel's pricing but like MTH's, you can buy MTH, but they may not have what you want or you might feel it isn't as good as the Lionel product (guys, these are all hypothetical scenarios, I literally have no dog in the fight). You can buy something used, if it exists, and hope that it works properly. Obviously you can do what some do and run only PW stuff conventionally, too.
Put it this way, just using tv's as an example of a mass produced good. You decide Sony TV's are overpriced (which they generally are IMO), and there are a raft of other brands you can buy, including no name brands. Those are mass produced products that make their money on volume. You have real alternatives there and the differences between them is minimal....
I don't have any inside knowledge of Lionel, but I have some pretty good guesses what goes on there. Besides having some brand loyalty, including people who hate MTH, they are also operated differently. They are owned/have been owner by private equity and those folks among other things demand high returns, they aren't satisfied by like 7,8%, they want double digit. To do that in a relatively small market the margins have to be high.
So then why is MTH lower priced? I can only guess, but MTH was pretty much a sole proprietorship of Mike W (it could be he has minority owners, I don't know). As such he may have been happy with normal margins since he doesn't have wall street to worry about *shrug*. I can tell you from case studies galore over the years, that private companies tend to spend more money on R and D and willing to take lower returns then in public companies or those owned by equity groups and the like (public companies are in total return ie return on money in the form of dividends and the like and the more important rise in stock price).
Thing is a lot of people grumble about the prices but pay it, and that is their right, the same way Lionel can charge what they want. As far as 'bringing it home', until things like shipping and labor rates and the like make it disadvantageous to build there, it isn't coming back to the US, and if it did prices would definitely not be lower (I know it is 2 different issues, but some seem to think it would be cheaper making it here.). If the market were bigger, if they ever really serialize 3D printing into a mass production kind of thing, it potentially could come to the US, but it would be a highly automated factory with few workers (not to mention the cost of tooling such a factory would mean it would be lionel contracting with a contract factory that produced a lot of things, like they kind of do in China). I doubt it would bring down the cost, though, for a number or reasons.
@bigkid posted:Thing is a lot of people grumble about the prices but pay it...
This is true to an extent. However it's hard to measure how much more someone would buy if the price were lower.
i.e. if a boxcar costs $75 I might by only one, but at $50 I might buy three. I just wonder if the supply/demand curve is balanced right now.
@rplst8 posted:
i.e. if a boxcar costs $75 I might by only one, but at $50 I might buy three. I just wonder if the supply/demand curve is balanced right now.
I agree, I tend to look for used stuff nowadays to keep the costs down. A $75 boxcar just seems overpriced to me.
@EscapeRocks posted:Well, someone on a forum is NOT going to tell me how to spend my money. (and I own from many players. MTH, Lionel, Atlas, K-line, Weaver, etc..)
Your'e gonna have to tell me how someone on a forum can tell you how to spend your money. What kind of force they could apply to do so. Do they live nearby you. If you are prone to being easily influenced you need to work on that.
As for price gouging that is just BS. It is pure simple Capitalism. Now, if you don't like that...
@rdunniii posted:Your'e gonna have to tell me how someone on a forum can tell you how to spend your money. What kind of force they could apply to do so. Do they live nearby you. If you are prone to being easily influenced you need to work on that.
As for price gouging that is just BS. It is pure simple Capitalism. Now, if you don't like that...
You know I actually agree with you. I was commenting on why people to continue to buy even after it's suggested they do not buy. "you all need to vote with your wallet and not buy" was one of the statements in one of the never ending price threads.
I just carried to the extreme. No one is telling me how to spend my money.
Also, you're correct in that this is not price gouging. Simple capitalism, which is just fine with me.
In other words, we're on the same side, so to speak.
"As for price gouging that is just BS. It is pure simple Capitalism. Now, if you don't like that..."
Price gouging is when you need bread, the supply is limited and a merchant triples the price. Pricing a toy train product higher than some people like is simply figuring out what it costs you to make and sell it, and leaving some room for profit (capitalism, as you say).
No one is accusing Lionel of price gouging for selling the former MTH Premier C-Liners for about what MTH would be selling them at, give or take. Tells us something about the accuracy of the accusations of price gouging. Some models are less expensive to make than others, or made in much higher volume.
Larger production runs make it possible to spread fixed costs (e.g. tooling) over a much larger number of models. Dramatically lowers the costs and final MSRP. Anyone think more people are interested in New York Central or New Haven C-Liners than a newly tooled steamer from a tourist railroad in SW Pennsylvania? Perhaps.
The pricing (in this case a so called "high price") of goods is not really a feature of Capitalism per se. Capitalism is simply the private ownership of means of production, and using them to turn a profit. Lionel is using their relationship with a Chinese manufacturer and the tooling they own (somewhat jointly) i.e. "capital" to produce an item and selling it to make some profit.
Setting a particular price is largely a function of a free market, supply and demand, and competition. Raising prices because there is no competition is a form of rent-seeking behavior, and characteristic of monopolies - which is generally the antithesis of a healthy competitive market. Whether that is happening in this case is undetermined since other market forces have been at play over the last year. However, this trend was seen previous to current events.
In terms of a monopoly, we're not there yet in 3-rail, let alone O-gauge, but at one time there were more manufacturers and now there are less, so we'll probably continue to see this behavior. There will come a point where the price of goods and/or profit being made will entice someone to start a new business and compete with the entrenched interests one way or another. It nearly always happens.
It's well within any companies right to raise prices, but that's not capitalism.
Price gouging as a term generally implies to things you need to live. A gas station when there is a natural disaster charging 10 bucks a gallon is going to be charged with price gouging. A good store that charges 5 bucks for an apple when it usually sells for 2 bucks a pound when there is an emergency would also be charged. Unless a price is regulated (ie there is a price cap), you can charge what you want for non critical goods (and that of course becomes problematic; food, water, fuel is pretty easy, but is a snow shovel when a blizzard is coming critical enough?). I doubt anyone would be charged with price gouging for an o gauge locomotive or something.
@rplst8 posted:This is true to an extent. However it's hard to measure how much more someone would buy if the price were lower.
i.e. if a boxcar costs $75 I might by only one, but at $50 I might buy three. I just wonder if the supply/demand curve is balanced right now.
Hard to know. There is a principle in pricing products (the term escapes me) where there is a psychological barrier to buying that if you are able to get below it, can mean more sales then might otherwise be expected. So in this example, at 75 bucks, person sees it, says "that is crazy", and buys just one. Price at 50 bucks? Guy says "wow, that is a deal at 50 bucks, I'll take 3" (this was a pretty good example). Marketing people and finance people don't just go by normal supply and demand curves, sometimes "sexy pricing" can make you spend more than you would at the higher price. Demand for goods is obviously not always a logical or rational thing. If you need a pound of nails to do something, and it costs 12 bucks, you might grumble and pay for it; but if it cost 6 bucks, you might not grumble, but you buy the same item.
The downside to cutting price is in this example they may not be able to do a lower price, even if it meant higher sales. From their perspective, let's say that 75 buck single purchase price made them 30 bucks (not a great example, but let's say). I price it at 50 bucks, and someone buys 3 instead of 1, I make 15 bucks.....not as good a deal (for me). Now if a lot of people saw the 50 buck price, and instead of 1 at 75, I sold lets say 10@50, I make more money (it gets complicated, because it leaves out that the fixed costs remain the same). It would all come down to pent up demand at a price, if enough people would buy at 50 that won't at 75, or people will buy multiple instead of one, they make more money.
With toy trains there is one downside to this, demand and the size of the market. In a limited market like toy trains, dropping the price may be unlikely to generate all that many more sales. Those who want it will pay the price, with the big margin, if they drop it they might buy more, but others may not drum up demand even at 50 buck level.
@bigkid posted:Price gouging as a term generally implies to things you need to live. A gas station when there is a natural disaster charging 10 bucks a gallon is going to be charged with price gouging. A good store that charges 5 bucks for an apple when it usually sells for 2 bucks a pound when there is an emergency would also be charged. Unless a price is regulated (ie there is a price cap), you can charge what you want for non critical goods (and that of course becomes problematic; food, water, fuel is pretty easy, but is a snow shovel when a blizzard is coming critical enough?). I doubt anyone would be charged with price gouging for an o gauge locomotive or something.
Yes, and on the other hand, price gouging can be seen as a market indicator. Some argue that it should NOT be punished.
For example, after a hurricane building contractors, particularly framers and roofers, are in high demand. If they were able to charge higher prices the people that could afford that price would pay it. However, contractors and roofers from neighboring areas can also be notified of those high prices and temporarily move their business to those places that need it. This increases competition and the prices will begin to fall again.
There still needs to be regulation of this behavior somewhat, for example you don't want contractors that moved temporarily to welch on the contracts they've signed and are currently building just because the merry-go-round of work has slowed.
Anyway, price "gouging" is not all bad, nor the evil that some make it out to be.
Lionel will sell lots of trains out of this catalog.
@Landsteiner posted:"There will be a new level of price gouging which is the primary byproduct of any Lionel offering."
Now there's an objective and fair statement
Did we get an answer to this question?
Many of us would find it interesting. 
There’s lots of yea’s and Nea’s to almost every aspect of our hobby, from Envy of those having large, well landscaped layouts, to those Wishing they had a layout, to those featuring the latest and greatest from our manufacturers, Lionel, MTH, Atlas O, and others, and it proves 1 thing, everyone has an Opinion, so, sometimes it’s best to be happy for those that like high end, top notch quality, and those that are happy with less features. When I visit some of my friends, I’m blown away with their model railroads, Farmerjohns, Dr. Jack Fishers, Harmonyards new layout, so, I just am thankful that we have Choices, it’s the American way. Now, I’m showing a high end VL Hudson, and comparing it to The Harmon Shops re-built K-Line TMCC Hudson. The VL hudson is the first one, possibly the tender is off the track, but this belongs to my buddy Charles Hearn, Nashville, Tn. Mine is the later pictures, Pat did a super cool job on the rebuild. It’s TMCC, but it runs so smoothly. Thank you Harmonyards. Happy Railroading Everyone 
@Landsteiner posted:"There will be a new level of price gouging which is the primary byproduct of any Lionel offering."
Now there's an objective and fair statement
@rthomps posted:Did we get an answer to this question?
Many of us would find it interesting.
The answer is in the guy's bio..."periodic legal counsel for MTH Electric Trains in Columbia, MD". 
@leapinlarry posted:Mine is the later pictures, Pat did a super cool job on the rebuild. It’s TMCC, but it runs so smoothly.
That’s probably because of that giant Pittman he fitted, which the VL example, no doubt, doesn’t have.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:And they're not going to, so I'd give this up, it's a losing cause!
Where my catalog... I need to increase my orders yet again!
@Training Wheels posted:The answer is in the guy's bio..."periodic legal counsel for MTH Electric Trains in Columbia, MD".
Oh boy... I'm sure it was an unbiased opinion... free legal advice!
Hello all. Lionel's announcement is very good news. My hope is that MTH DCS is and will still maintain support for many years. I love Lionel, but already had invested too much into DCS. We will have to see what "broad assortment" Lionel invested in. I'm excited and glad Lionel stepped in.
@Abraham posted:Hello all. Lionel's announcement is very good news. My hope is that MTH DCS is and will still maintain support for many years. I love Lionel, but already had invested too much into DCS. We will have to see what "broad assortment" Lionel invested in. I'm excited and glad Lionel stepped in.
Sadly, Lionel won't be making any DCS locomotives, but we still have Atlas O who licensed DCS from MTH and will be using that in their locomotives.
@rplst8 posted:That’s probably because of that giant Pittman he fitted, which the VL example, no doubt, doesn’t have.
The VL 700E would have a Pittman being cataloged in 2010. If I recall correctly canon started showing up in 2016ish
also I don’t think comparing the VL 700E to a K-Line Hudson is apples to apples. The VL 700E is just that a VL version of the original 700E not a modern tooled NYC Hudson.
before I jump off track back to the topic at hand, I’m not surprised that Lionel bought som MTH tooling; how could they not it was for sale and this saves them from cutting new tools. As far as what we see in MSRP I think the business aspect side has been discussed. Keep in mind Lionel probably dropped hundreds of thousands of dollars on these toolings. While probably still cheaper than cutting new tools themselves definitely not cheap and who knows what other tools they bought we don’t know about yet. But now let’s think all of these tools are at a factory that MTH used, while I could be wrong I imagine that now they must be moved to what ever factory Lionel plans to use. I would think after past experiences they might want to steer clear of that factory MTH has used for so long. Then again that might be part of the understanding to also use that factory. Who knows, not I. Any who so there’s probably cost in moving the tools on top of the tool cost now lest also factor in that in locomotives such as the C-liners and the RK P-42’s Lionel will be re-engineering the trucks to there specs for smoother operation. There is yet more cost on top of the original tool purchase.
I’ve been watching and reading many of these threads just got to the point where I’m popping in. Just FYI on my standings I do have manly Lionel but everyone is represented somehow. I have no MTH locomotives, I was once told they were junk and to steer clear. I’ve personally came to the conclusion and learn enough on my own when something MTH has or will make catches my Intrust I might get it and some goes with Lionel or any other manufacturer.
Zachariah, your exactly correct, the K-Line hudson is a much newer made model, not the nostalgic 700 E mold, not at all apples to apples, however, I was making a point that folks like Pat, Harmonyards, CEO, Harmon Yards Shops, can take this particular hudson, rebuild it from an average run of the mill locomotive, to a Stallion, a beautiful, stump puller, with realistic headlight, chuff sounds, a powerful smoke system, and the big Pittman motor. I’ve had three VL Hudsons, I just wasn’t thrilled with them, but after Pat rebuilt my K-Line hudson, it has become my favorite. $750 versus $1500, it’s a no brainer, but, it’s all a fun hobby. The VL Hudson is a beauty, it’s a fine piece of work, I was not down grading it, just showing what can happen to a nice locomotive by great repair man, Thanks for your thoughts.
Now, let’s see what’s going to happen with the new Lionel acquisition of MTH tooling. It’s great for our hobby. Happy Railroading Everyone
Who is this Pat we keep talking about for future reference, Pat of Pat's trains?
Reading RR, David, this person Pat, is not affiliated with the retailer Patrick’s Trains, he is a great repairman of model trains, his handle on this forum is Harmonyards, his business is Harmon Shops, his name is Pat. He works on lots of different steam and diesel locomotives for many folks. If you need any Lionel or MTH or other brands of trsins fixed, see Harmon Yards. Happy Railroading Everyone
@zhubl posted:The VL 700E would have a Pittman being cataloged in 2010. If I recall correctly canon started showing up in 2016ish
also I don’t think comparing the VL 700E to a K-Line Hudson is apples to apples. The VL 700E is just that a VL version of the original 700E not a modern tooled NYC Hudson.
before I jump off track back to the topic at hand, I’m not surprised that Lionel bought som MTH tooling; how could they not it was for sale and this saves them from cutting new tools. As far as what we see in MSRP I think the business aspect side has been discussed. Keep in mind Lionel probably dropped hundreds of thousands of dollars on these toolings. While probably still cheaper than cutting new tools themselves definitely not cheap and who knows what other tools they bought we don’t know about yet. But now let’s think all of these tools are at a factory that MTH used, while I could be wrong I imagine that now they must be moved to what ever factory Lionel plans to use. I would think after past experiences they might want to steer clear of that factory MTH has used for so long. Then again that might be part of the understanding to also use that factory. Who knows, not I. Any who so there’s probably cost in moving the tools on top of the tool cost now lest also factor in that in locomotives such as the C-liners and the RK P-42’s Lionel will be re-engineering the trucks to there specs for smoother operation. There is yet more cost on top of the original tool purchase.
I’ve been watching and reading many of these threads just got to the point where I’m popping in. Just FYI on my standings I do have manly Lionel but everyone is represented somehow. I have no MTH locomotives, I was once told they were junk and to steer clear. I’ve personally came to the conclusion and learn enough on my own when something MTH has or will make catches my Intrust I might get it and some goes with Lionel or any other manufacturer.
also I don’t think comparing the VL 700E to a K-Line Hudson is apples to apples. The VL 700E is just that a VL version of the original 700E not a modern tooled NYC Hudson.
this is wrong, the VL Hudson is derived from the Kline tooling!…in fact, the chassis from the Legacy ESE, the chassis for the latest J3a are all derived from Kline tooling,….the VL 700E shares NOTHING in common with any of the previous 700E offerings from the 30’s or the 90’s model,…..When Lionel purchased the Kline tools, they also got all of their scale locomotives, many have showed up in the Legacy line up in some form or other ,…
Pat
@zhubl posted:The VL 700E would have a Pittman being cataloged in 2010. If I recall correctly canon started showing up in 2016ish
also I don’t think comparing the VL 700E to a K-Line Hudson is apples to apples. The VL 700E is just that a VL version of the original 700E not a modern tooled NYC Hudson.
before I jump off track back to the topic at hand, I’m not surprised that Lionel bought som MTH tooling; how could they not it was for sale and this saves them from cutting new tools. As far as what we see in MSRP I think the business aspect side has been discussed. Keep in mind Lionel probably dropped hundreds of thousands of dollars on these toolings. While probably still cheaper than cutting new tools themselves definitely not cheap and who knows what other tools they bought we don’t know about yet. But now let’s think all of these tools are at a factory that MTH used, while I could be wrong I imagine that now they must be moved to what ever factory Lionel plans to use. I would think after past experiences they might want to steer clear of that factory MTH has used for so long. Then again that might be part of the understanding to also use that factory. Who knows, not I. Any who so there’s probably cost in moving the tools on top of the tool cost now lest also factor in that in locomotives such as the C-liners and the RK P-42’s Lionel will be re-engineering the trucks to there specs for smoother operation. There is yet more cost on top of the original tool purchase.
I’ve been watching and reading many of these threads just got to the point where I’m popping in. Just FYI on my standings I do have manly Lionel but everyone is represented somehow. I have no MTH locomotives, I was once told they were junk and to steer clear. I’ve personally came to the conclusion and learn enough on my own when something MTH has or will make catches my Intrust I might get it and some goes with Lionel or any other manufacturer.
The VL 700E would have a Pittman being cataloged in 2010. If I recall correctly canon started showing up in 2016ish
wrong again, the VL Hudson is equipped with this motor …
Pat 
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