JULY 15th, 2021 - LIONEL PURCHASE OF MTH TOOLING ... PLEASE READ!

@Madockawando posted:

Why yes! It’s called Purple Haze. You may be familiar to you?😁

..and here I was counting on you using JT's newest "Orange Happy Glow"

@GG1 4877 posted:

What an dramatic turn of events.  Next thing you know cats will be living with dogs!  It will be interesting to see what tooling went to Lionel.

Check this thread....

MTH is still in business. | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum (ogaugerr.com)

I'm still confused how a locomotive, that's already been made, is "revolutionary" because it comes with a different electronics package then it did before. Is it because it comes in a different color box? Does owning a MTH locomotive I installed TMCC into make me a "revolutionary"?

Let's be serious and cut the hyperbole here: Lionel bought some tooling from MTH. They will make the same item that's been made before but with different electronics inside. It's nothing "new". It's been done by people at home, on their workbench, for years. I've done it myself dozens of times. If you expand your horizons to other scales you'll see that people put different brand DCC decoders in any locomotive available and no one bats an eye. Why everyone is freaking out because a FM C-Liner now has Legacy from the factory instead of PS3 is beyond me.

Lionel is the only "full line" manufacture of 3 rail trains with starter sets etc. You know what in other scales (HO) there are a couple manufactures who make starter sets (basically Bachman and Piko) and a whole line of trains and plenty who cater to the hobbyist who is just interested in purchasing a locomotive or cars for their already established layouts (Athearn, BLI, Scaletrains). This whole manufacture worship in 3 rail O is ridiculous. I wish it was more like other scales, where people bought what they like regardless of who the manufacture is.

@Amfleet25124 posted:

From your lips to God's ears.

Beautiful but stubby compared to the 1/48 scale Atlas 85-foot long passenger car

Those K-Line 21" Bombardier cars are massive:

My HO one is an Athearn, the N is a co-workers of unknown make.

It is my understanding that MTH and Lionel struck the agreement a year ago.  Lionel engineering has been working on these products since that time.  In my past corporate experience it was common to delay announcing agreements of this sort for the benefit of the selling party and may have been a condition of the sale.  If Lionel had announced this prior to now then, MTH would have been stuck with devalued inventory as customers may have made the decision to wait for the new stuff instead of buying the old.  As far as remote systems go, I expect DCS to be around for no more than five years as a stand-alone organization.  The volume of business necessary to support a separate organization may not be there in the coming years.  

@Lou1985 posted:

I'm still confused how a locomotive, that's already been made, is "revolutionary" because it comes with a different electronics package then it did before. Is it because it comes in a different color box? Does owning a MTH locomotive I installed TMCC into make me a "revolutionary"?

Let's be serious and cut the hyperbole here: Lionel bought some tooling from MTH. They will make the same item that's been made before but with different electronics inside. It's nothing "new". It's been done by people at home, on their workbench, for years. I've done it myself dozens of times. If you expand your horizons to other scales you'll see that people put different brand DCC decoders in any locomotive available and no one bats an eye. Why everyone is freaking out because a FM C-Liner now has Legacy from the factory instead of PS3 is beyond me.

Lionel is the only "full line" manufacture of 3 rail trains with starter sets etc. You know what in other scales (HO) there are a couple manufactures who make starter sets (basically Bachman and Piko) and a whole line of trains and plenty who cater to the hobbyist who is just interested in purchasing a locomotive or cars for their already established layouts (Athearn, BLI, Scaletrains). This whole manufacture worship in 3 rail O is ridiculous. I wish it was more like other scales, where people bought what they like regardless of who the manufacture is.

I never bought any MTH motive power. I didn’t want to invest in a second remote system.  I had Lionel and was quite satisfied with it.  MTH had some interesting locomotives that would ruin on any size layout and I hope they will be produced with LionChief Plus or Legacy.  I just ordered the Pennsylvania C-Liner from Charles Ro for $499.95.  

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

I guess it was inevitable. Hopefully they got some of the PRR steam tooling. I would not mind a Legacy I1 Decapod. Their H10 was nice. A Q2 with Legacy would be beastly.

I would absolutely LOVE a Decapod from Lionel.  Another brute for the Panhandle?  Yeah, baby! 

George

@IRON HORSE posted:

I am grateful for Mr. Muffins Trains, Pat's trains and and Public Delivery Track who aren't afraid to share direct FACTS with us regarding MTH news.

I got an email from Pat’s which explained everything to me concisely. I am so happy I bought something from Pat’s which put me on their mailing list. The email explained exactly what tooling Lionel got which I am sure everyone here knows by now.

I agree with the guys who said this is interesting news but in my opinion it is not revolutionary or game changing. I am so happy to hear MTH will stay in business. Of course they will be smaller than they were but I would rather have a smaller MTH than none at all. I still miss Weaver.

@RixTrack posted:

I never bought any MTH motive power. I didn’t want to invest in a second remote system.  I had Lionel and was quite satisfied with it.  MTH had some interesting locomotives that would ruin on any size layout and I hope they will be produced with LionChief Plus or Legacy.  I just ordered the Pennsylvania C-Liner from Charles Ro for $499.95.  

You could have bought a MTH locomotive and run it under TMCC control. It's pretty simple really. Remove the MTH electronics, install TMCC/RS from ERR, run under TMCC with full TMCC features. Simple, and done all the time. Before the last 12 months or so it was possible to buy a PS1 MTH locomotive and electronics from ERR for less than half the cost of a brand new Legacy locomotive.

@Lou1985 posted:

You could have bought a MTH locomotive and run it under TMCC control. It's pretty simple really. Remove the MTH electronics, install TMCC/RS from ERR, run under TMCC with full TMCC features. Simple, and done all the time. Before the last 12 months or so it was possible to buy a PS1 MTH locomotive and electronics from ERR for less than half the cost of a brand new Legacy locomotive.

Yeah, but I’m not going to do any of that.  I’m not much of a tinkerer.  I changed out the lighting in 24 passenger cars to John’s led system and that’s as far as I will go.  Everyone has their own path in this hobby.  

@Lou1985 posted:

Lionel is the only "full line" manufacture of 3 rail trains with starter sets etc. You know what in other scales (HO) there are a couple manufactures who make starter sets (basically Bachman and Piko) and a whole line of trains and plenty who cater to the hobbyist who is just interested in purchasing a locomotive or cars for their already established layouts (Athearn, BLI, Scaletrains). This whole manufacture worship in 3 rail O is ridiculous. I wish it was more like other scales, where people bought what they like regardless of who the manufacture is.

I totally agree with this. While I am an MTH fan I do not have any dislike for Lionel or any other company. I didn’t buy my MTH trains based on the color of the box. MTH made trains that we’re to my interest (scale wheels—fixed pilots, etc) and had Lionel done the same I know I would have bought more Lionel. I do have some Lionel which are beautiful trains. No plans on selling them. I just don’t see the rivalry between manufacturers. I would never want anything bad to happen to any train manufacturer. I want them all to be successful and compete with each to build great products for the hobby.

It is similar to the cars I like. I love my Mopars but do not dislike Ford or Chevy.

Life continues to be interesting......you never know how things will go down......and, we move on.

Peter

I don't know if Lionel acquired any of the tools for the MTH Imperial line of Railking engines, but I hope so. If Lionel's going to abandon the LionMaster line, the Imperial line would be a reasonably good substitute.

@breezinup posted:

I don't know if Lionel acquired any of the tools for the MTH Imperial line of Railking engines, but I hope so. If Lionel's going to abandon the LionMaster line, the Imperial line would be a reasonably good substitute.

Why would Lionel discontinue Lionmaster?  They sell everyone they make…every single one of them.

@breezinup posted:

I don't know if Lionel acquired any of the tools for the MTH Imperial line of Railking engines, but I hope so. If Lionel's going to abandon the LionMaster line, the Imperial line would be a reasonably good substitute.

I do hope Lionel grabbed some Imperial line steam locomotives!.

@G3750 posted:

I would absolutely LOVE a Decapod from Lionel.  Another brute for the Panhandle?  Yeah, baby! 

George

I guess we’ll have to wait and see. Who knows what Lionel got at this point. My 3rd Rails are holding up pretty well but it would be nice to give them a break. An MTH-tooled Dec with Legacy would be kinda dreamy with Kadee mounts and some selectable PRR whistles. Maybe MTH in whatever form they will be taking on will want to retain some of their better tools. Seems like they are taking their time selling off their tooling to maximize what they can get for them.

After viewing the catalog it looks like there is no mention of 2R on any of the MTH tooling. I shouldn't be surprised, but I was hopeful.

Oh Well. Plenty of amazing stuff being made in smaller scales.

I'm late to the "announcement" party, as usual. This may be mentioned above, or not.

Rambling: I wonder if Lionel went after the MTH scale Mohawk tooling? If so that would give Lionel tooling for the L2, L3 and L4 Mohawks. The L3a Lionel already did (and needs to do it again - right this time); the L3b and L4 were done by MTH. I have an MTH L3b and L4. Beautiful - but no more so than the Lionel L2a. And the L2b through L2d look very different from the L2a.

Also, an L3a (3001) and an L2d still exist - odd for big NYC steam. Lionel should offer the 3001.

Alas, no L1 Mohawks. Early and interesting. May I suggest those (and the L2d) for the Hybrid method, much as they did the SP GS-1?

So - Lionel could corner the market on Mohawks!

Competition is good for the consumer.  MTH made Lionel raise their game.  Lionel was all but dead and in bankruptcy.  I heard for years that Lionel didn't listen to customers who wanted scale and highly detailed offerings.  Without MTH, Would Lionel have ever changed or maybe even survived?

Now, instead of competition, we and people in the future are going to experience CONFUSION.

Atlas locos will have TMCC, Legacy and DCS electronics.  You won't know by looking at the exterior.  When you go to a future train show, how will you know which is which?

I know its business.  I know Mike doesn't care because he got his money.  But, I sure wish his company would have continued to survive in tact--including DCS--of which many of us have a SIGNIFICANT investment.

I'm still wondering why Atlas is now going to install DCS instead of Legacy?  The answer of course is:  MONEY.  But, I'd still like to know what the real reason is.  I will never know.

I have a dream.  I've had it since I stepped into the O scale world years ago.  One day there would be a UNIVERSAL command system in O scale that would control EVERYTHING.  Because as I wrote earlier, you are going to have to be darn careful what you are buying in the future because you can't be sure what electronics (TMCC/LEGACY/DCS) are going to included in your purchase without testing and/or hopefully the right information on the box, IF there is a box.

As if there wasn't enough confusion already in the O scale world, here is yet another wrinkle.

@John C. posted:

Competition is good for the consumer.  MTH made Lionel raise their game.  Lionel was all but dead and in bankruptcy.  I heard for years that Lionel didn't listen to customers who wanted scale and highly detailed offerings.  Without MTH, Would Lionel have ever changed or maybe even survived?

Now, instead of competition, we and people in the future are going to experience CONFUSION.

Atlas locos will have TMCC, Legacy and DCS electronics.  You won't know by looking at the exterior.  When you go to a future train show, how will you know which is which?

I know its business.  I know Mike doesn't care because he got his money.  But, I sure wish his company would have continued to survive in tact--including DCS--of which many of us have a SIGNIFICANT investment.

I'm still wondering why Atlas is now going to install DCS instead of Legacy?  The answer of course is:  MONEY.  But, I'd still like to know what the real reason is.  I will never know.

I have a dream.  I've had it since I stepped into the O scale world years ago.  One day there would be a UNIVERSAL command system in O scale that would control EVERYTHING.  Because as I wrote earlier, you are going to have to be darn careful what you are buying in the future because you can't be sure what electronics (TMCC/LEGACY/DCS) are going to included in your purchase without testing and/or hopefully the right information on the box, IF there is a box.

As if there wasn't enough confusion already in the O scale world, here is yet another wrinkle.

I completely agree with you on competition. We need it. Scale steam needs someone other than Lionel, 3rd rail isn’t large enough.

But atlas doesn’t have legacy, Lionel has forced them to use the old generic TMCC boards and sounds. So if you were atlas and you acquired tooling that was set up for DCS, wouldn’t you use it and get a collaborative agreement with MTH and who will continue to improve DCS? I believe Atlas did the right thing for the consumer.

@PRRMP54 posted:

Those K-Line 21" Bombardier cars are massive:

My HO one is an Athearn, the N is a co-workers of unknown make.

Keeping my 21" K-line VRE-Sounder and CALTrains cars!

@Lou1985 posted:

You could have bought a MTH locomotive and run it under TMCC control. It's pretty simple really. Remove the MTH electronics, install TMCC/RS from ERR, run under TMCC with full TMCC features. Simple, and done all the time. Before the last 12 months or so it was possible to buy a PS1 MTH locomotive and electronics from ERR for less than half the cost of a brand new Legacy locomotive.

While I agree with the cost effectiveness of refitting a PS1 loco, this isn't a viable solution at the price of a PS2 or PS3 - IMO, it's unreasonable to pay the cost of a fully functional loco and then turn around and yank out the expensive electronics.

I have both systems and I will buy from Lionel, MTH or Atlas if they produce what I want. In this case, I'll be buying a C-Liner in my favorite road name from MTH tooling.

Today I read a post from Scott Mann, that really says a lot about all the complainers here. Mind you, I'm sure most of his complainers are 2 railers, but regardless why so much negativity.

We all knew a year ago that MTH was closing shop or downsizing.

I was delighted that Atlas procured MTH tooling with DCS control. Others were not and declared their disdain.

Now, we have Lionel buying other MTH tooling and of course, they will install Legacy or Lion Chief.

I'm happy to have all these choices.

@John C. posted:

Competition is good for the consumer.  MTH made Lionel raise their game.  Lionel was all but dead and in bankruptcy.  I heard for years that Lionel didn't listen to customers who wanted scale and highly detailed offerings.  Without MTH, Would Lionel have ever changed or maybe even survived?

I agree.  Competition is what keeps markets healthy, and I doubt Lionel would still exist without Mike Wolf in the picture.

Atlas locos will have TMCC, Legacy and DCS electronics.  You won't know by looking at the exterior.  When you go to a future train show, how will you know which is which?

…

I'm still wondering why Atlas is now going to install DCS instead of Legacy?  The answer of course is:  MONEY.  But, I'd still like to know what the real reason is.  I will never know.

Atlas has never had any Legacy electronics to my knowledge, and the reason they went with DCS is because it supports DCC and this will likely simplify their manufacturing since only one type of electronics will be needed.

I have a dream.  I've had it since I stepped into the O scale world years ago.  One day there would be a UNIVERSAL command system in O scale that would control EVERYTHING.

This already exists and it’s called DCC.  Manufacturers and O-gauge consumers are just too stubborn to take advantage of it.  It is the one thing that has frustrated me about my switch to O-scale from HO.

@rplst8 posted:

I agree.  Competition is what keeps markets healthy, and I doubt Lionel would still exist without Mike Wolf in the picture.

Atlas has never had any Legacy electronics to my knowledge, and the reason they went with DCS is because it supports DCC and this will likely simplify their manufacturing since only one type of electronics will be needed.

This already exists and it’s called DCC.  Manufacturers and O-gauge consumers are just too stubborn to take advantage of it.  It is the one thing that has frustrated me about my switch to O-scale from HO.

So true, but was it stubbornness or greed/profits that led to creating the proprietary systems?

@rplst8 posted:

I agree.  Competition is what keeps markets healthy, and I doubt Lionel would still exist without Mike Wolf in the picture.

Atlas has never had any Legacy electronics to my knowledge, and the reason they went with DCS is because it supports DCC and this will likely simplify their manufacturing since only one type of electronics will be needed.

This already exists and it’s called DCC.  Manufacturers and O-gauge consumers are just too stubborn to take advantage of it.  It is the one thing that has frustrated me about my switch to O-scale from HO.

As far as I know, Legacy still has limited its DCC capability.  Lionel may not be advertising it in O but they certainly are in the Legacy equipped American Flyer locomotives.

Rusty

@D500 posted:

I'm late to the "announcement" party, as usual. This may be mentioned above, or not.

Rambling: I wonder if Lionel went after the MTH scale Mohawk tooling? If so that would give Lionel tooling for the L2, L3 and L4 Mohawks. The L3a Lionel already did (and needs to do it again - right this time); the L3b and L4 were done by MTH. I have an MTH L3b and L4. Beautiful - but no more so than the Lionel L2a. And the L2b through L2d look very different from the L2a.

Also, an L3a (3001) and an L2d still exist - odd for big NYC steam. Lionel should offer the 3001.

Alas, no L1 Mohawks. Early and interesting. May I suggest those (and the L2d) for the Hybrid method, much as they did the SP GS-1?

So - Lionel could corner the market on Mohawks!

This would be nice D500,…imagine a page full of Mohawks to pick from,….guess we’ll have to wait & see who got the Premier Mohawk tools,…in the meantime, the recipe for a class L2d Mohawk isn’t that awful to bake,….1 L3a shell, and 1 L2a chassis, mix well, garnish, and serve,…..😉

Pat

@Rusty Traque posted:

As far as I know, Legacy still has limited its DCC capability.  Lionel may not be advertising it in O but they certainly are in the Legacy equipped American Flyer locomotives.

Rusty

Interesting.  That I did not know.  I went back to the 2017 Flyer catalog and it does indeed mention DCC compatibility.  Oddly though, the manual for the Santa Fe PAs in that catalog (6-47998) makes no mention of it!

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...193748162250PAAA.pdf

@Hudson J1e posted:

So true, but was it stubbornness or greed/profits that led to creating the proprietary systems?

I understood Neil Young had TMCC developed to help his kid(s) enjoy running trains. Not motivated by greed nor profits.

Pete

@rplst8 posted:

Interesting.  That I did not know.  I went back to the 2017 Flyer catalog and it does indeed mention DCC compatibility.  Oddly though, the manual for the Santa Fe PAs in that catalog (6-47998) makes no mention of it!

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...193748162250PAAA.pdf

Legacy American Flyer locomotives have had DCC compatibility since December 2012.

Rusty

@Lou1985 posted:

This whole manufacture worship in 3 rail O is ridiculous. I wish it was more like other scales, where people bought what they like regardless of who the manufacture is.

Since O Gauge manufacturers chose to make competing operating systems, a lot of us non-electronics techs were forced to make a choice.  Like my LHS advised me on the question of DCS or Lionel's command control, "Pick one, and stick to it".  I did and happened to choose DCS.  Part of the reason was I liked all of MTH's stuff I had purchased.  Early on Lionel's length in business actually chased me away because I bought cheap cars with plastic trucks because I was buying new and used and didn't understand the variety of its products at the time.   The "worship" for me is mostly with engines. K-Line, Lionel, Atlas O, Weaver all blend well with MTH stuff as I think most would agree.  But, as was stated earlier, a lot of us have sizeable investments in MTH products and clearly their survival or tooling means a lot to us.

So I guess Lionel has saved the world as we know it?

@Phil55 posted:

So I guess Lionel has saved the world as we know it?

Yes…

@Richie C. posted:

Check this thread....

MTH is still in business. | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum (ogaugerr.com)

Ironically, the fact that it was even necessary to start a thread like that only makes one wonder even more what is going on at MTH. Can you imagine if someone started a serious  thread with: “Hey everybody! I just talked to Charles Ro and guess what? Lionel is STILL in business!”

A post like that would only lead to more speculating and questions on what the heck is really going on with Lionel.

@Madockawando posted:

Ironically, the fact that it was even necessary to start a thread like that only makes one wonder even more what is going on at MTH. Can you imagine if someone started a serious  thread with: “Hey everybody! I just talked to Charles Ro and guess what? Lionel is STILL in business!”

A post like that would only lead to more speculating and questions on what the heck is really going on with Lionel.

A thread like that wasn’t necessary, but given Lionel’s ambiguous announcement, no one knows who has which tooling.  There seems to be two big categories of tooling that folks want to know about 1) MTH’s excellent Korean made steam tooling and 2) RailKing and RailKing Imperial tooling.

According to this announcement below, MTH still retains 80% of their tooling assets.

https://mthtrains.com/news/706

@Hudson J1e posted:

I totally agree with this. While I am an MTH fan I do not have any dislike for Lionel or any other company. I didn’t buy my MTH trains based on the color of the box. MTH made trains that we’re to my interest (scale wheels—fixed pilots, etc) and had Lionel done the same I know I would have bought more Lionel. I do have some Lionel which are beautiful trains. No plans on selling them. I just don’t see the rivalry between manufacturers. I would never want anything bad to happen to any train manufacturer. I want them all to be successful and compete with each to build great products for the hobby.

It is similar to the cars I like. I love my Mopars but do not dislike Ford or Chevy.

What you & Lou said makes a lot of sense,…..which is kinda refreshing, given the amount of nonsense on here,…🙄

Pat

I first saw this thread yesterday morning and I guess i could not say I was surprised that Lionel would purchase some MTH tooling at some point. I am glad that MTH will still be in business though being that I have  a lot of MTH locomotives and that DCS will keep going.

@IRON HORSE posted:

Since O Gauge manufacturers chose to make competing operating systems, a lot of us non-electronics techs were forced to make a choice.  Like my LHS advised me on the question of DCS or Lionel's command control, "Pick one, and stick to it".  I did and happened to choose DCS.  Part of the reason was I liked all of MTH's stuff I had purchased.  Early on Lionel's length in business actually chased me away because I bought cheap cars with plastic trucks because I was buying new and used and didn't understand the variety of its products at the time.   The "worship" for me is mostly with engines. K-Line, Lionel, Atlas O, Weaver all blend well with MTH stuff as I think most would agree.  But, as was stated earlier, a lot of us have sizeable investments in MTH products and clearly their survival or tooling means a lot to us.

“Forced to choose”…..???……why??….as much as some of y’all are willing to pay for locomotives, but you guys cringe at the thought of buying a second remote?…I guess if that’s the way ya feel, so be it,…just seems silly given the fact the two systems work pretty well side by side,….I’m the farthest thing from an electronics expert, and I have both systems, and with the help with some of the fellas on this forum, my stuff runs great……your LHS saying pick one system and stick with it kinda limits you from a lot of the possibilities,…..I’d think….again, the fellas that clamor about having to buy a second remote system, but will gladly buy thousands and thousands of dollars of locomotives don’t hold a whole lot a weight,…seems a silly argument,…

Pat

Doesn't sound like Lionel bought much of the Railking engine tooling. Bantam items for lionchief sets mostly.

The game changer hype was way overplayed. Lionel buying tooling and using it is nothing new, they have done this before and didn't change much of anything in the past except make competion smaller and prices higher.

It's nice too know that the tooling will see more use but those who already own this stuff it's going to be a hard sell, especially with the higher prices. Looking at the price tags in that latest catalog made very happy that I bought what I wanted when it was affordable.

I think the other nice thing is how all of this makes just about anything in an MTH box worth a lot more on the 2nd hand market. About 3 months ago I sold a used Railking starter set on eBay for just under $400. It was any early model with the less reliable ps2 5v board. I paid $265 for it new in 2003. I wanted to slip a note in the box that said "You really don't have to pay this much for an old starter set. MTH is still making trains, and will for a long time."

For completeness, here is MTH’s official announcement concerning this relatively small purchase of tooling (80% of the company is intact)-

https://mthtrains.com/news/706