JULY 15th, 2021 - LIONEL PURCHASE OF MTH TOOLING ... PLEASE READ!

According to Wolf, "after years of competing head to head, it was delightful to sit down and negotiate the sale of these tools with Lionel's Howard Hitchcock. The Lionel team did a great job selecting models that will fit in nicely within their lineup.”

And to think that back in the early 90s all Mike wanted to do was build & sell trains for Lionel. They shot down his initial idea of making a new engine (which would have been marketed as a Lionel product) that spawned him to developing his own train line up. I wonder if Lionel bought the tooling to that first Locomotive?

@harmonyards posted:

“Forced to choose”…..???……why??….as much as some of y’all are willing to pay for locomotives, but you guys cringe at the thought of buying a second remote?…

Pat

Pat,

You make a valid point.  "Forced to choose" was an overstatement.  I'm not speaking for all MTH fans--just my own journey.  For 20+ years I've been getting both MTH and Lionel catalogs and, quite frankly, there was such an extensive selection from MTH that I've had no need to choose engines from the Lionel catalogs.  As it was, I could barely scratch the surface of buying from my want list from just MTH's catalogs.  When I decided to get into the command environment, I wasn't going to just jump into both MTH and Lionel at the same time so I could have even more choices.  And I already had PS2 engines.  Today, however, both remotes perhaps makes a lot of sense, given the downsizing and no catalogs from MTH. You are right in that, today, why limit your choices?

@IRON HORSE posted:

Pat,

You make a valid point.  "Forced to choose" was an overstatement.  I'm not speaking for all MTH fans--just my own journey.  For 20+ years I've been getting both MTH and Lionel catalogs and, quite frankly, there was such an extensive selection from MTH that I've had no need to choose engines from the Lionel catalogs.  As it was, I could barely scratch the surface of buying from my want list from just MTH's catalogs.  When I decided to get into the command environment, I wasn't going to just jump into both MTH and Lionel at the same time so I could have even more choices.  And I already had PS2 engines.  Today, however, both remotes perhaps makes a lot of sense, given the downsizing and no catalogs from MTH. You are right in that, today, why limit your choices?

Yep,..and that’s the point I was trying to convey,….I totally agree MTH did venture into a grand plethora of models vs. the “other guys” ……the other point I’ll make is given the current cost of new equipment, taking older MTH PS1 or dead PS2 equipment and making it TMCC is another viable option,….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Yep,..and that’s the point I was trying to convey,….I totally agree MTH did venture into a grand plethora of models vs. the “other guys” ……the other point I’ll make is given the current cost of new equipment, taking older MTH PS1 or dead PS2 equipment and making it TMCC is another viable option,….

Pat

I agree Pat. There is a way to have a great engine that "you"(meaning any one person), have it worked on to your liking. It has been suggested to me by Pat, Pete, GRJ and a few others that if I want a good engine, by something that is a good solid model(older MTH stuff or KLine, anything really) and have it upgraded. I have a KLine Hudson that I should be getting ready to go out the door in a week or two and a very nice Weaver Canadian Pacific Royal Hudson as well. I haven't had a chance to get myself to a point to get things packed up and worked out with whom I'm sending stuff to, but that will be coming.

People sometimes forget that you don't always have to buy new. My current car was a very good deal, hardly used, low miles and I love it. My 83 year old recently bought a used pickup that is very much in the same category as my car, and she was very lucky too.

Anyway you look at the purchase of the toolings, there will be something for someone and hopefully with no bugs.

I am cornfoozed.  Who is on first?  As this retirement/ downsizing was still thrashing out, nothing was sure, and so that continues.  l think all will take take years to become firm, if ever, with new players entered, and possibly entering.  If DCS, as an industry standard, comes of this, l might try other than conventional.  I don't buy brand, l buy prototypes, those desired, of the steam era, so mostly none lately in locos, (That may be looking up!). Too much planned obsolescence in this.  I still want somebody to use the McKeen tooling, and the Weaver 2-8-0 tooling.

Keep in mind that Lionel doesn't have to use the tooling it has bought, and that might be why a list has not been published. Lionel can just stockpile the tooling and roll it out when its time to add something "new" to their product offerings or they can sit on it as long as they want.   If they own the tooling, a competitor can't buy it and use it to produce a product that might steal market share from Lionel. This tooling purchase could be a good way to keep competitors in line in the marketplace.  It's not hard to think of example companies that have swallowed up their competitor and then shut down their competitor's offerings.

Example:  Testors bought Floquil years ago.  How's that going today?

The euphoria surrounding Lionel purchasing MTH tooling may be premature. Let's see what Lionel says (and doesn't say) in the coming months.  I hope I'm wrong about this, by the way.

Dale

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I agree Pat. There is a way to have a great engine that "you"(meaning any one person), have it worked on to your liking. It has been suggested to me by Pat, Pete, GRJ and a few others that if I want a good engine, by something that is a good solid model(older MTH stuff or KLine, anything really) and have it upgraded.

I have upgraded twice because I fried the boards.  In both cases I upgraded to PS2 and PS3.  As I recall, the cost ran between $250-300 each time with labor.  Is TMCC an easier, less expensive upgrade?  Can a non tech guy like me do it myself?  Cost matters, of course, because in some cases you might as well buy a new engine versus upgrading an older, used one, right?  I have PS1 engines that I like but not sure I would want to put money into them to upgrade.  I appreciate your insight.

@IRON HORSE posted:

I have upgraded twice because I fried the boards.  In both cases I upgraded to PS2 and PS3.  As I recall, the cost ran between $250-300 each time with labor.  Is TMCC an easier, less expensive upgrade?  Can a non tech guy like me do it myself?  Cost matters, of course, because in some cases you might as well buy a new engine versus upgrading an older, used one, right?  I have PS1 engines that I like but not sure I would want to put money into them to upgrade.  I appreciate your insight.

For some of us ( quite a few)  some of the thrill is breathing new life into a derelict, dead, or otherwise non-feature full locomotive or whatever,…..it’s kinda our cup of tea, …naturally we scope out the right price and try to keep a budget in mind,….doesn’t always work out, but most times it can still be way cheaper than buying new,….even with having it outsourced……the features you want in doing a TMCC or even a legacy swap, will determine final costs,….there’s no real set cost in upgrading or modding a locomotive, it’s a case by case study,……..if you find it a burden, then naturally it’s not for you,…of course if you dive into the wonderful world of DIY, then the savings come back to you,…..I find the Hudsons I build have all but whistle steam, can spit out wooden nickels, and still half the cost of a comparable new one at 1100-1200 bucks ,….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

I find the Hudsons I build have all but whistle steam, can spit out wooden nickels, and still half the cost of a comparable new one at 1100-1200 bucks ,….

Pat

Good info, Pat. Thanks.  My PS3 upgrade was a Premier Hudson and well worth it.  My other was a Railking Big Boy and actually worth it, too.  It's nice to know that you can do TMCC as an upgrade instead of PS3 -- if, at some point, they are no longer available.

@harmonyards posted:

Yep,..and that’s the point I was trying to convey,….I totally agree MTH did venture into a grand plethora of models vs. the “other guys” ……the other point I’ll make is given the current cost of new equipment, taking older MTH PS1 or dead PS2 equipment and making it TMCC is another viable option,….

Pat

I agree but the cost of used equipment has gone up as well. Still, I think it is worth it to upgrade older equipment. In the last 2 years I bought 3 locomotives. None of them have electronics. MTH Premier Berkshire, Premier Atlantic and a Weaver Consolidation. Total cost $1,100. If the electronics cost me $600 (I can install them myself) for all three locomotives I am still cheaper than the new Lionel 2-10-0. I am very happy I bought those locomotives when the prices were down.

I also agree there is a certain satisfaction from bringing a locomotive back from the dead.

I have half a dozen older locomotives waiting in the wings for me to get the time to upgrade them.  If I see a desirable locomotive at a good price, I typically add it to my future upgrade pile.

My last PS1 will be on Mr Muffins auction in the fall. It's a premier Blue Comet. I'm hoping that all this talk of escalated prices will apply in my case, although I think the Blue Comet has been over produced.

@Hudson J1e posted:

I agree but the cost of used equipment has gone up as well. Still, I think it is worth it to upgrade older equipment. In the last 2 years I bought 3 locomotives. None of them have electronics. MTH Premier Berkshire, Premier Atlantic and a Weaver Consolidation. Total cost $1,100. If the electronics cost me $600 (I can install them myself) for all three locomotives I am still cheaper than the new Lionel 2-10-0. I am very happy I bought those locomotives when the prices were down.

I also agree there is a certain satisfaction from bringing a locomotive back from the dead.

The used market certainly seen a good size uptick. No question,…there’s still deals to be found, it just takes a little hunting,….😉….I for one hope when swap meets and train shows become more numerous again, the secondary market will settle back down to at least a more acceptable level,…

Pat

Here’s proof of the pudding, Harmonyards, the Harmon Shops, took my K-Line J1e NYC  Hudson and did an amazing rebuild making it my favorite steamer. He took an MTH chassis, Pittman motor, Gunrunner Johns chuff stuff, new smoking system, new engineers, detailed deck plate, realistic coal on-atop of the tender, a new formed headlight, ERR and it runs Fantastic. So, if you want a great performing locomotive at an affordable price, do not be apprehensive about checking with Pat or possibly others here on the forum, as an older locomotive can be Reborn.  I am not saying not to buy the new offerings, it’s a matter of family economics. I am glad to see Lionel purchase some of the MTH tooling, it shows good business. Happy Railroading Everyone

Has anyone heard if anyone got the E33, E44 and lumber car tooling?

Being new at this, I don’t understand the hype over MTH. I purchased a Rail King 4-8-4 Northern and my Lionel 4-6-4 Hudson will pull twice as many cars. I will admit the whistle on the Northern is fantastic. Hopefully, Lionel can improve on the MTH line.

@Curt Henion posted:

Being new at this, I don’t understand the hype over MTH. I purchased a Rail King 4-8-4 Northern and my Lionel 4-6-4 Hudson will pull twice as many cars.

Are the traction tires missing? Which Hudson are you comparing it to?

Market cycles are turning back to favor new product now that secondary market prices have stiffened over the past year. Also, scarcity of desired items in good condition/working order have lessened the desire to chase them at the prices offered. Some of these products are pushing 20 years old now and can be found in almost basket case condition. Parts are getting harder to find too.

The Hudson is Lionel #6-82965 Santa Fe 3450 Lion Chief. The Northern is MTH #30-1140-1 Santa Fe 2926 Rail King. The Hudson pulled 24 cars easily. The Northern was spinning the wheels with 10 and 12 cars. I purchased the Northern from a guy in Albuquerque, but it was new in the box and had never been run. The traction tires are on it. He used it for a display during the presentation of the real 2926 that has been restored in Albuquerque. The Hudson, being a remote controlled engine, doesn’t get the voltage “jolt” at the beginning of movement like the Northern being run directly off of the ZW transformer. I purchased the Northern more for it’s likeness to the real 2926 anyway, even though it is a smaller “O” scale than my Legacy 3751 Northern. Top to bottom: Legacy 3751, Rail King 2926, Hudson 3450. You can see the size difference between the two Northerns. I realize they have the smaller “O” scale for the .031 curves, but seems like it would pull as many cars as the smaller Hudson. I don’t know, like I said I am new to the hobby.

@Curt Henion posted:

The Hudson is Lionel #6-82965 Santa Fe 3450 Lion Chief. The Northern is MTH #30-1140-1 Santa Fe 2926 Rail King. The Hudson pulled 24 cars easily. The Northern was spinning the wheels with 10 and 12 cars. I purchased the Northern from a guy in Albuquerque, but it was new in the box and had never been run. The traction tires are on it. He used it for a display during the presentation of the real 2926 that has been restored in Albuquerque. The Hudson, being a remote controlled engine, doesn’t get the voltage “jolt” at the beginning of movement like the Northern being run directly off of the ZW transformer. I purchased the Northern more for it’s likeness to the real 2926 anyway, even though it is a smaller “O” scale than my Legacy 3751 Northern.

I realize they have the smaller “O” scale for the .031 curves, but seems like it would pull as many cars as the smaller Hudson. I don’t know, like I said I am new to the hobby.

A couple of ideas...

The RailKing is a 23 year model.  You said it was displayed, so maybe the traction tires are dried out.  Also, with the Hudson being LionChief produced in the last 5 years, it's motor control technology is much more advanced.  Also, the LionChief get's to start out with full voltage available where as the RailKing Proto is starting at 5-7 volts.

I don't think the comparison is all that fair.  If the problem is the wheels are slipping, I would try new traction tires and/or adding weight inside the boiler.  Lead sheeting is the best for this IMHO.  If the problem is that it can't get the train started, or it bogs down on hills, then I'd say the lack of advanced motor control is the problem.

There is a YouTube channel called Eric's Trains where he regularly does pulling power tests on the locomotives he reviews.  I don't recall there being a significant difference between the pulling power between Lionel and MTH locomotives.  That said, he mostly buys Legacy and MTH Premier models which have bigger motors, better electronics all around, and bigger, heavier boilers.

I own a 30-1140-1.  It is a Proto-1 engine and there is a big difference between Proto-1 and Proto-3. That being said, I know that it has pulled more that 12 cars and has pulled 6 postwar Lionel aluminum cars.  I also have the new 2926 with Proto-3 and it has many amazing features but I not tested its pulling power but its starting speed is 2mph.

@leapinlarry posted:

Here’s proof of the pudding, Harmonyards, the Harmon Shops, took my K-Line J1e NYC  Hudson and did an amazing rebuild making it my favorite steamer. He took an MTH chassis, Pittman motor, Gunrunner Johns chuff stuff, new smoking system, new engineers, detailed deck plate, realistic coal on-atop of the tender, a new formed headlight, ERR and it runs Fantastic. So, if you want a great performing locomotive at an affordable price, do not be apprehensive about checking with Pat or possibly others here on the forum, as an older locomotive can be Reborn.  I am not saying not to buy the new offerings, it’s a matter of family economics. I am glad to see Lionel purchase some of the MTH tooling, it shows good business. Happy Railroading Everyone

Larry, every time you post this locomotive with all it's upgrades, I get that tingling sensation. I still have to get with Pat on the one I bought and my old Lionel one with the Vandy tender.

@IRON HORSE posted:

Good info, Pat. Thanks.  My PS3 upgrade was a Premier Hudson and well worth it.  My other was a Railking Big Boy and actually worth it, too.  It's nice to know that you can do TMCC as an upgrade instead of PS3 -- if, at some point, they are no longer available.

The cost like Pat says varies. This is mainly because each engine is different and what you want done could range from just a simple upgrade to other detailing that isn't on the model currently.

Pat has taken a lot of reading, studying and other things to know what an engine should look like. He has made proper headlights like seen on Larry's model if I remember correctly, added coal loads with real coal, and I think some other detailing besides a proper engine crew where there has been no figures or silly looking ones.

One of the other amazing things that Pat told me is how the Lionel #3000 L3a Mohawk could be converter into a L2d Mohawk. That I found very interesting. To take something so plain and make it into something so new and dynamic.

I'm sorry I didn't get on here yesterday after my initial reply. Yesterday was a busy day, my cousin had a grad party for his youngest son, spent most of the day there socializing. Came home late and the back road had power lines and trees down. Wanted to get on here after coming home, but was way too tired.

Hey rplst8, thanks for the information. The rail king was on display one Saturday morning for the event. After that it was kept in the original box. It was only a year old when I purchased it in 2018. I haven’ run it since 2019, because it was such a poor performer. The Proto 1 series, which this one is, has very small drive wheels compared to my 3751. There, again, .031 curves compared to .054 curves, but for almost $100 more new, you would think the heavier MTH Northern would out pull the little Hudson. My friend has a NYC Hudson like my 3450 and he pulled 33 cars with it. Pretty impressive for a $269.00 engine.

I am just hoping with Lionel purchasing the MTH tooling that they do the 2926 with the Legacy upgrades. I will order one in a minute if they do. It will look great sitting next to my Legacy 3751.

@Curt Henion posted:

Hey rplst8, thanks for the information. The rail king was on display one Saturday morning for the event. After that it was kept in the original box. It was only a year old when I purchased it in 2018. I haven’ run it since 2019, because it was such a poor performer. The Proto 1 series, which this one is, has very small drive wheels compared to my 3751. There, again, .031 curves compared to .054 curves, but for almost $100 more new, you would think the heavier MTH Northern would out pull the little Hudson. My friend has a NYC Hudson like my 3450 and he pulled 33 cars with it. Pretty impressive for a $269.00 engine.

Your 2926 is Rail King, not Premier (which is scale size). PS, PS2, PS3 has nothing to do with size, it's the type of operating system.

Here's the size difference between my friends Rail King 2916 and my Premier 2903. I've also got a Legacy ATSF 3751 class Northern (#3759) and 2903 is bigger than it as well. The 2900 class was significantly larger than the 3751 class.

@harmonyards posted:

This would be nice D500,…imagine a page full of Mohawks to pick from,….guess we’ll have to wait & see who got the Premier Mohawk tools,…in the meantime, the recipe for a class L2d Mohawk isn’t that awful to bake,….1 L3a shell, and 1 L2a chassis, mix well, garnish, and serve,…..😉

Pat

Yeah - and I have a chassis. Maybe I'll find the boiler one day. I need that like I need another hole in my head.

Looks really nice.

@Curt Henion posted:

The Hudson is Lionel #6-82965 Santa Fe 3450 Lion Chief. The Northern is MTH #30-1140-1 Santa Fe 2926 Rail King. The Hudson pulled 24 cars easily. The Northern was spinning the wheels with 10 and 12 cars.

There's something definitely out-of-kilter with that locomotive. With a die-cast boiler, there's no way it should be spinning with only a dozen cars. A plastic 2-4-2 will pull that kind of consist.

---PCJ

Hi, does anyone have a direct link to download a .pdf or another offline version of this new Lionel catalog? The Lionel web site's catalog page still isn't accessible with a screen reader. Well that is one thing MTH had right that Lionel didn't.

@ChooChoo1972 posted:

Hi, does anyone have a direct link to download a .pdf or another offline version of this new Lionel catalog? The Lionel web site's catalog page still isn't accessible with a screen reader. Well that is one thing MTH had right that Lionel didn't.

Www.Lionel.com/catalogs

http://www.lionel.com/catalogs

@ChooChoo1972 posted:

Hi, does anyone have a direct link to download a .pdf or another offline version of this new Lionel catalog? The Lionel web site's catalog page still isn't accessible with a screen reader. Well that is one thing MTH had right that Lionel didn't.

To download it, you must load the web version of the catalog and then hit the download pdf button.

@ChooChoo1972 posted:

Hi, does anyone have a direct link to download a .pdf or another offline version of this new Lionel catalog? The Lionel web site's catalog page still isn't accessible with a screen reader. Well that is one thing MTH had right that Lionel didn't.

Here's the direct link to download the PDF.

http://catalogs.lionel.com/202...offline/download.pdf

Thank you so much for that direct link. That is just what I needed. The previous two responses were just links to the totally inaccessible online catalog. Many thanks again.

@Up & Down the Monon posted:

Here's the direct link to download the PDF.

http://catalogs.lionel.com/202...offline/download.pdf

Oh wow, I didn't know there was a direct link.  Good to know in the future.  I thought the only way was through the web version.

Glad you got it though!

@rplst8 posted:

Oh wow, I didn't know there was a direct link.  Good to know in the future.  I thought the only way was through the web version.

Glad you got it though!

It's the same download link the online viewer gives you if you want to download the catalog for offline viewing, so do note that it'll be different depending upon the catalog. Next year's catalogs will have a different URL. If you need to download any others, feel free to holler at me.

Awesome stuff there, Do you also have the direct link to the 2021 Big Book? I wish the big L boys would just make it easy and provide a page where each download link is present.

thanks

@ChooChoo1972 posted:

Awesome stuff there, Do you also have the direct link to the 2021 Big Book? I wish the big L boys would just make it easy and provide a page where each download link is present.

thanks

http://catalogs.lionel.com/202...offline/download.pdf

@RixTrack posted:

Why would Lionel discontinue Lionmaster?  They sell everyone they make…every single one of them.

In case you haven't noticed, Lionel has made very few LionMaster engines in quite a few years now. Lots of fans of LionMaster here on the Forum have voiced their wishes that Lionel start again regularly producing the line with Legacy. Noone knows why they have almost discontinued LionMaster, although there was some talk that some of them sold more slowly than hoped. Note that it's not only whether they all eventually sell, but also how quickly they sell that matters to Lionel and to dealers. Only a Big Boy and a Challenger have been made with Legacy in quite a few years.

@breezinup posted:

In case you haven't noticed, Lionel has made very few LionMaster engines in quite a few years now. Lots of fans of LionMaster here on the Forum have voiced their wishes that Lionel start again regularly producing the line with Legacy. Noone knows why they have almost discontinued LionMaster, although there was some talk that some of them sold more slowly than hoped. Note that it's not only whether they all eventually sell, but also how quickly they sell that matters to Lionel and to dealers. Only a Big Boy and a Challenger have been made with Legacy in quite a few years.

Given the prices the of the LC2 version of the Big Boy, how much will the legacy electronics add to the cost?

Back in in 2018 I bought an Imperial Big Boy with 4 reefer cars and a caboose for $719 from my LHS. The LC2 Big Boy (alone) at his shop is priced at $1099 right now. It looks nice but at that price point it's a big pass for me.

Lionel did an excellent job with those Lionmaster engines, they really should be brought back.

In 2025 we will look back on 2022 pricing and think it was pretty reasonable is my guess. They are pricing these products for delivery in 2022, so they need to figure in possible further increases in the costs of raw materials, labor and shipping, none of which are likely to go down, as opposed to up.  The last thing they want to do is produce products that are sold at a loss.  Better to be conservative, price them at the worst possible case increase, and have reduced orders. There are plenty of reasonably priced locos and rolling stock in the new catalog (the C-Liners for example), and I'm sure Lionel has reasons for their various pricing of the different MTH tooling as well as their own tooling. 

Comparing MTH prices for delivery in 2021 of a set of limited runs with sunk tooling costs with Lionel prices for 2022 delivery with new tooling or newly purchased tooling is not a realistic vision of what's coming.

@rplst8 posted:

http://catalogs.lionel.com/202...offline/download.pdf

Thank you very much. That is most appreciated.