Pat I rightfully stand corrected. Really this was simply a miscommunication (or I missed something in leapinlarry’s post) I didn’t really think the VL 700E was the original tooling but I did assume it was in some way close to other renditions. I know Lionel has a number of K-Line tooling but did not know that was used on it. Very surprised to not see a Pittman motor in it. But none the less as leapinlarry stated before your work is indeed truly outstanding
@zhubl posted:Pat I rightfully stand corrected. Really this was simply a miscommunication (or I missed something in leapinlarry’s post) I didn’t really think the VL 700E was the original tooling but I did assume it was in some way close to other renditions. I know Lionel has a number of K-Line tooling but did not know that was used on it. Very surprised to not see a Pittman motor in it. But none the less as leapinlarry stated before your work is indeed truly outstanding
No worries, ….I’ve had so many of these newer Hudsons apart it’s a sin, ….like you, I was inquisitive as to how these were made, so I began to do some comparisons side by side with Kline parts to see what they had done…….the similarities are just too great, in fact, way too great,….obviously they altered the tools to suit their needs, but you can clearly see the same casting shapes, same bolt holes, and some of the same designs....on another locomotive, the Kline scale Berkshires, that also have the small, forward facing motor made around the same time as the Kline scale Hudson, the Lionel Legacy chassis, with it’s rear facing motor, bolts right in to the earlier Kline boiler casting. …..kinda eerie??..no??……so the ghosts of Kline live on,….I suspect in the future, we’ll see this same “ altered” tooling happen into the Legacy line, this time with MTH tools…..😉
Pat
Lionel has used several K-Line scale steam tools in Legacy. VL Hudson is based on the K-Line Hudson tooling, Legacy Lima B&M Berkshire is K-Line as well. Lionel re-engineered the chassis on both to put a larger motor in the firebox. Lionel also uses K-Line tooling for their scale Mikados, Pacifics, and 4-6-6T, but kept the small forward facing motor on those.
@Lou1985 posted:Lionel has used several K-Line scale steam tools in Legacy. VL Hudson is based on the K-Line Hudson tooling, Legacy Lima B&M Berkshire is K-Line as well. Lionel re-engineered the chassis on both to put a larger motor in the firebox. Lionel also uses K-Line tooling for their scale Mikados, Pacifics, and 4-6-6T, but kept the small forward facing motor on those.
The PRR K4 is another that comes to mind too,….albeit it can be tossed into the Pacific category,…😉
Pat
Thanks Larry that's good to know for future reference. Also a small world in names, I had a high school math teacher who's nickname was leapinLarry. He was also the baseball coach and when things got interesting on the field he would get leaping.
@harmonyards posted:The PRR K4 is another that comes to mind too,….albeit it can be tossed into the Pacific category,…😉
Pat
I wish Lionel would rerun these with the elephant ears. I have the original but a legacy version would be awesome
@EricTrainMan posted:I wish Lionel would rerun these with the elephant ears. I have the original but a legacy version would be awesome
I’d hope they suck up the MTH K4 tooling and toss theirs in the China Sea, ….the MTH K4 tooling is a fine tuned instrument ,….the old Kline tooling …..🤮
Pat
@harmonyards posted:I’d hope they suck up the MTH K4 tooling and toss theirs in the China Sea, ….the MTH K4 tooling is a fine tuned instrument ,….the old Kline tooling …..🤮
Pat
No arguments here. I have a K4 from each of the 3 and the mth is hands down the best. Just wish it had elephant ears and legacy sounds
@EricTrainMan posted:No arguments here. I have a K4 from each of the 3 and the mth is hands down the best. Just wish it had elephant ears and legacy sounds
Well, Elephant ears aren’t bad to fabricate, and as far Legacy sounds, master builders Sid or Bruk can surely take a MTH Premier and make it Legacy…..😉….that’s their cup of tea,….both of those guys are the Legacy Doctors,….
Pat
@johnstrains posted:Dennis,
Doing this from memory from some of the many recent MTH threads, but I think the answer is "no" on the Tinplate. I'm sure others will weigh in if they know something.
Thanks! That is my "collective memory as well regarding any purchase of the Tinplate tooling from MTH by another manufacturer."
@EricTrainMan posted:I wish Lionel would rerun these with the elephant ears. I have the original but a legacy version would be awesome
Elephant ears, swinging bell and legacy!
@prrhorseshoecurve posted:Elephant ears, swinging bell and legacy!
Bingo!
Thanks Pat for clearing things up to some degree! Looking forward to hearing about the new Wi-Fi Track Interface Unit that would replace my unit which has failed! The originals I used with my handhelds no longer available. Looking ahead to making my layout come alive again. Thank Pat
I see nothing but higher prices. Competition keeps prices in check. We needed another manufacturer to buy MTH tooling.
@TrainHead posted:I see nothing but higher prices. Competition keeps prices in check. We needed another manufacturer to buy MTH tooling.
That’s easier said than done. Interested in stating a train manufacturing business?
@TrainHead posted:I see nothing but higher prices. Competition keeps prices in check. We needed another manufacturer to buy MTH tooling.
I see lots great trains… looking forward to two 2-8-0s, a CP caboose cam, and the 773 Hudson.
Good stuff that will sell well.
@harmonyards posted:I’d hope they suck up the MTH K4 tooling and toss theirs in the China Sea, ….the MTH K4 tooling is a fine tuned instrument ,….the old Kline tooling …..🤮
Pat
Perhaps they have. In the 2021 Volume 1 catalog there is a Pennsylvania Baby K-4 that is reportedly all new to Lionel tooling.
@RixTrack posted:Perhaps they have. In the 2021 Volume 1 catalog there is a Pennsylvania Baby K-4 that is reportedly all new to Lionel tooling.
A "baby" K4 isn't the scale version.
@RickO posted:The small forward facing motor design is a given, but I thought detail wise the K Line was a respectable model.
The K Line is the only model that has the specific driver detail no? I'm not sure what it is, it looks like rivets around the rim. I think the MTH and Lionel tooled K4s just have "run of the mill" spoked drivers.
Yeah, the K-Line shell tooling is great, but don’t pull too much with it.
@RickO posted:The small forward facing motor design is a given, but I thought detail wise the K Line was a respectable model.
The K Line is the only model that has the specific driver detail no? I'm not sure what it is, it looks like rivets around the rim. I think the MTH and Lionel tooled K4s just have "run of the mill" spoked drivers.
On a side note. K line also nailed the concave counterweights on the J1e drivers. But you likely know this.
Good points Rick!! ….Detail wise, yes,…they’re right up there with the Kline scale Hudson,….as far as the drivers on the Kline and MTH Hudson, they’re the same ….I haven’t had anybody request a MTH chassis swap on a K4 yet, but I have some MTH K4 chassis sitting around…hmmmmm,…the next frontier,..😉….Kline K4 with a big fat Pittman??…it can happen….if the drivers on the Kline are that nicer than the MTH’s so be it, I’ll swap them over too,….use the best of the best,….the object of the game is to make it look like it’s as stock as a rock, ….some argue the MTH J1e Hudson is as fine as the Kline, ….I say not, ….that Kline boiler shell edges out on the detail dept…..those Kline scale models are the closest thing to high dollar brass that I’ve ever seen,….hence why so many have pulled the trigger to have me gut them like a fish and reengineer everything,….
Pat
@harmonyards posted:Good points Rick!! ….Detail wise, yes,…they’re right up there with the Kline scale Hudson,….as far as the drivers on the Kline and MTH Hudson, they’re the same ….I haven’t had anybody request a MTH chassis swap on a K4 yet, but I have some MTH K4 chassis sitting around…hmmmmm,…the next frontier,..😉….Kline K4 with a big fat Pittman??…it can happen….if the drivers on the Kline are that nicer than the MTH’s so be it, I’ll swap them over too,….use the best of the best,….the object of the game is to make it look like it’s as stock as a rock, ….some argue the MTH J1e Hudson is as fine as the Kline, ….I say not, ….that Kline boiler shell edges out on the detail dept…..those Kline scale models are the closest thing to high dollar brass that I’ve ever seen,….hence why so many have pulled the trigger to have me gut them like a fish and reengineer everything,….
Pat
I have a k-line K4 w/ elephant ears that’s a shelf queen due to a temperamental cruise and minimal pulling power. You’re tempting me! One of my favorite engines
@RickO posted:No worries. I got burned by the Legacy version when the secondary gearshaft bushing started turning into shavings,lol!
It only had a couple of hours on it pulling 4 k line 15" passenger cars.
I have replaced the drive block on three of the Legacy K4 locomotives, the internal gear gets loose on the shaft, and the only possible fix would be to pull all the wheels and finagle another gear in there and get it secured to the shaft. However, that would end up costing more than just replacing the drive block! I keep a spare K4 drive block in my closet...
@RickO posted:I was disappointed to see this gearbox in nearly everything these days,even articulateds. On my H10, the worm gear shoves the secondary gearset over so far only 1/4 of the gear face makes contact with the axle gear.I have added a shim in the gearbox since these h10s have a removable bottom plate, but I refuse to purchase any more locos with this complex gearbox.
I actually was able to fix one of the K4 models with shims inserted from the top. It was a bit of a PITA, but I managed to keep the gear in place and AFAIK it's still running. The next one I think I'll pull the drive block and flush it with carb cleaner to get all the grease out, then use retaining compound on the gear to see if that works.
I'm going to check my H10, it hasn't run much, but I'd like to head off that issue before it happens.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I actually was able to fix one of the K4 models with shims inserted from the top. It was a bit of a PITA, but I managed to keep the gear in place and AFAIK it's still running. The next one I think I'll pull the drive block and flush it with carb cleaner to get all the grease out, then use retaining compound on the gear to see if that works.
I'm going to check my H10, it hasn't run much, but I'd like to head off that issue before it happens.
I did a pig & a poke at one of these afflicted compound gear boxes,…what a hunk of junk!…I developed a fix for these, as long as the gears haven’t gone into mangle mode, pretty invasive, and a real clock bandit,…the fix involves pulling drivers, pushing out the pin, adding better splines to the pin, and a brass sleeve to keep everything aligned,….not one of their crowning designs,…..I’ve had a couple requests to duplicate the service, but both had destroyed gears, so no fix if the gears are wasted,….as John has stated,…it’s chassis time,…
Pat
Yep, after screwing around with these, I just slide a new chassis under them. While I know it's possible to take it all apart, I really don't want to spend that much time on this kind of repair.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Yep, after screwing around with these, I just slide a new chassis under them. While I know it's possible to take it all apart, I really don't want to spend that much time on this kind of repair.
Yeah,…curiosity got the better of me, and I wanted to see if there was a feasible repair,…..like I said, I did one successfully…..however, the ability to do it repetitively is kinda null & void especially if the gears are at discard,….if Lionel runs out of chassis, and someone had one with good gears, then I’d take another swing at it,….but right now it’s about a 5 hour ordeal to knock it all apart, and repair all the damage…..and I still have to put it all back together and test it,….
Pat
@harmonyards posted:right now it’s about a 5 hour ordeal to knock it all apart, and repair all the damage…..and I still have to put it all back together and test it,….
Exactly my point, and you have the tools to get the quartering back right, it would take me longer I suspect, and I'd have to charge the customer way more than just sticking the new drive block under it. Of course, he's going to have the same issue with the new drive block one day... 
