Just bought a Lionel 700e scale hudson

Richard,

Your warped frame is apparently fairly common.

Try this link for a thorough, but drawn out, discussion starting with the 700E.  It focuses on zinc castings and challenges with them over the years, beginning back in those early 700E days:

     700E 5344 Scale Hudson | Tony R.

Nice find.

Mike

Thanks Mike, I get the following error when trying the link..

Invalid field value for field "content".

I'd agree, flaws and all, that this is a very nice find.  From my perspective it is the most desirable Lionel locomotive in a collection. 

@TRAIN COLLECTOR 2 posted:

Thanks Mike, I get the following error when trying the link..

Invalid field value for field "content".

Fixed it.  Try it now.

Mike

I agree, it looks like you have a 1937 cab on a later model frame.  I can't tell from the photos, but it looks like the boiler front may be a repro.  (On originals, the "5344" is raised, like the date on a coin.)  Despite that, you got an excellent deal.

The person who made the 700E videos was Don Hagar (now deceased).

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Fixed it.  Try it now.

Mike

Now it works Mike, thanks!

@700E posted:

I agree, it looks like you have a 1937 cab on a later model frame.  I can't tell from the photos, but it looks like the boiler front may be a repro.  (On originals, the "5344" is raised, like the date on a coin.)  Despite that, you got an excellent deal.

The person who made the 700E videos was Don Hagar (now deceased).

700E... The boiler front is newer and the numbers look pad printed, so it is a repo. The side rod, not main rod (not sure on exact name) is a repo. Not a big concern as this was a very good price. I just wish the engine was not warped so I could run it from time to time. I'm trying to find a way if it can be fixed. The thread that Mello Hudson Mike gave me discusses zinc pest and differing opinions on what causes it. I'm searching if this engine can fixed (straightened) and is it worth it. I realize I could buy a 700e frame on ebay, but then I de-value the engine, turn it into a Frankenstein, and have a buy a wheel puller, on and on... This might be a left over 1937/39 cab with small window frames on a newer 1939/40 frame with oil port and no serial number, just not sure.. Not sure if I keep this and make her a shelf queen or sell it...

"Warp" is not a completely accurate description of what happens when an early 700E casting degrades due to zinc pest.  What's actually happening is that the casting tries to expand in all directions as it degrades.  This is evident on a 700K cab in my collection that had never been mounted to a frame.  It's larger in all dimensions, and will no longer fit on a 700E frame, but there is no warp.  Another indicator of expansion on bad cabs is that the solder joints on the thin rods running forward from the engineer's side of the cab to the front of the engine are broken, with quarter-inch gaps where the joints had been.

At train shows here in Colorado, Don Hagar used calipers on the running boards of 700E's and 763E's to determine how much expansion there had been.

The warping that's commonly observed in cabs and in frames is because the cab has been mounted to a frame that has not expanded (or, at least, has not expanded at the same rate).  The expansion of the cab, but not the frame, is what causes the "cow catcher" to be pushed downward onto the track.

Is your frame warped?  Or is it the cab that’s warped?  If your cab is good and your frame bad, I can check to see whether I have a spare frame.  (I know for sure I don't have any spare cabs.)

My understanding of what the cause of zinc pest is has to do with the amount of zinc in the alloy. If the zinc ratio exceeds the solubility limit, the excess zinc accumulates at the grain boundaries of the molecular structure and causes the bonds to break down. This general topic was discussed years ago in my material science class and I posited that is likely what happens with our model trains.

i would imagine that the amount of excess zinc contributes  to the rate at which parts disintegrate which is why we see 10 year old modern train parts completely crumble while 85 year old models are very slowly self destructing.

700E has a very good explanation of why the model warps. The discrepant part that is growing is constrained in different places which prevents it from growing in a uniform fashion.

I seriously doubt it is possible to save or repair the parts that have warped. Maybe with heat, gentle pressure, and lots of time/patience but it would be extremely risky with a very high probablity of breaking the casting. I’d say either leave it be until it becomes a liability that will cause damage to the rest of the model. Or just replace the frame if you want to enjoy operating it.

Just out of curiousity, did the auction listing mention anything about the condition? Give any kind of grade? Or was it pretty much a sold as is?  I suspect others are correct, that trying to fix it outside replacing the frame might not be possible. Given it already seems like a Frankenstein of sorts, with parts from different engines, if you want a runner that may be the way to go. I only know about the 700e based on what I have read on here, but since you spent so much on it already (well, at least to me), could it be worth it to have one of the restoration places look at it, see what they think? Even if you get a new frame, there is no way to know what will happen when you take it apart.

The one good takeaway I see from your purchase is the tender shell looks very straight along the lines of the tender frame.

Last summer I was given a 700E from a good freind . The locomotive had a butchered up brush plate and no whistle in the tender so I made a investment in a good used motor and later on a tender pickup roller and period correct whistle. All in all about a 430 dollar investment.

About every so often I take it out of its case and run it to see if the cowcatcher tip is getter closer to the center rail. If you watch the video at the end you will see my tender has quite a bulge.

Nice work on that 700E, Bob! Great to see it running.

- Mike

@Mike Casatelli posted:

Nice work on that 700E, Bob! Great to see it running.

- Mike

Thanks Mike !

@700E posted:

"Warp" is not a completely accurate description of what happens when an early 700E casting degrades due to zinc pest.  What's actually happening is that the casting tries to expand in all directions as it degrades.  This is evident on a 700K cab in my collection that had never been mounted to a frame.  It's larger in all dimensions, and will no longer fit on a 700E frame, but there is no warp.  Another indicator of expansion on bad cabs is that the solder joints on the thin rods running forward from the engineer's side of the cab to the front of the engine are broken, with quarter-inch gaps where the joints had been.

At train shows here in Colorado, Don Hagar used calipers on the running boards of 700E's and 763E's to determine how much expansion there had been.

The warping that's commonly observed in cabs and in frames is because the cab has been mounted to a frame that has not expanded (or, at least, has not expanded at the same rate).  The expansion of the cab, but not the frame, is what causes the "cow catcher" to be pushed downward onto the track.

Is your frame warped?  Or is it the cab that’s warped?  If your cab is good and your frame bad, I can check to see whether I have a spare frame.  (I know for sure I don't have any spare cabs.)

Good info Mike, not sure if the frame or the boiler is warped as I'm afraid to take it apart. I don't want to find out if I cannot get the screw holes aligned together when putting it back together. I may end up selling this if it can't be repaired. The tender is beautiful, no warping, nice and straight and good whistle.

@Ryan Selvius posted:

My understanding of what the cause of zinc pest is has to do with the amount of zinc in the alloy. If the zinc ratio exceeds the solubility limit, the excess zinc accumulates at the grain boundaries of the molecular structure and causes the bonds to break down. This general topic was discussed years ago in my material science class and I posited that is likely what happens with our model trains.

i would imagine that the amount of excess zinc contributes  to the rate at which parts disintegrate which is why we see 10 year old modern train parts completely crumble while 85 year old models are very slowly self destructing.

700E has a very good explanation of why the model warps. The discrepant part that is growing is constrained in different places which prevents it from growing in a uniform fashion.

I seriously doubt it is possible to save or repair the parts that have warped. Maybe with heat, gentle pressure, and lots of time/patience but it would be extremely risky with a very high probablity of breaking the casting. I’d say either leave it be until it becomes a liability that will cause damage to the rest of the model. Or just replace the frame if you want to enjoy operating it.

Okay, so I have to make a choice, let it set and admire it on a shelf. Or swap the frame and run it. I figured this would be my only options, it's just too bad as this is a beauty of an engine. A U.S.A. made piece of Americana that at the time was the very best locomotive ever made from die-cast and from a great toy train company that made it. Also a personal project from the owner and founder this toy train company, Lionel. And made before world war II! I am learning allot by owning this engine, now I need to make some decisions... Thanks everyone!

@bigkid posted:

Just out of curiousity, did the auction listing mention anything about the condition? Give any kind of grade? Or was it pretty much a sold as is?  I suspect others are correct, that trying to fix it outside replacing the frame might not be possible. Given it already seems like a Frankenstein of sorts, with parts from different engines, if you want a runner that may be the way to go. I only know about the 700e based on what I have read on here, but since you spent so much on it already (well, at least to me), could it be worth it to have one of the restoration places look at it, see what they think? Even if you get a new frame, there is no way to know what will happen when you take it apart.

Nope, nothing nada...

Taycotrains, nice Hudson! That is what I want, a runner not a shelf queen. Thought it spend 98% of her time setting on a shelf looking pretty, I would want to run it from time to time. I do see a bulge in your tender, I hear this is common as well. My tender is perfect but the engine sucks...

If you want my opinion, fix it so it runs.  What's the point of having a dead engine sitting on a shelf.  That's a lot of dough, for me anyway, to buy an engine that doesn't run and is cosmetically compromised already.  So why not fix it.  I like the romanticism in your story about the history and all, I say get it running and be happy with it.  Best of luck.

Cheers,       W   

William, good advise. I am certainly thinking of getting it running. I know if I simply remove the cow catcher, she will run fine. If I remove this cow catcher (that came with the engine) , put a repo cow catcher and butcher it up to that it does not hit the third rail and keep the original cow catcher in a safe place.

Gentlemen.... I figured out a way to "lift" the cow catcher on my Hudson. I removed the cow catcher and placed a temporary shimmy (cardboard) between the frame and cow catcher. I plan to look for a piece of styrene plastic that is black, or I can paint black for a permanent fix. I simply loosened the cow catcher screw, placed a shim, which in turn lifts up the cow catcher high enough to run and not hit the third rail. I was able to lift it up about an 1/8" to 1/4". I even found a way to grind the cow catcher a bit down at an angle (with a Dremel) that will force the cow catcher to rise up should the frame or boiler warp further in the future. Of coarse I will wait until I grind the original cow catcher as the shim is working fine. Or I can even get a repo cow catcher and grind that one down in the future, should I need to. I took some pics and a short video, I have not put back the front coupler as I will need to remove the cow catcher once I get a piece of plastic for a permanent fix. I guess she is a keeper now. Thank you all for great info.

I forgot to mention.... Yes I do have Lionel T-Rail track, enough for a couple loops, four switches and about 20 straights. I setup my tubular track for this test and she ran/tracked fine. I will also run her on my clubs layout at some point that uses Atlas O track, the San Diego 3-Railers.

Richard, that looks like an excellent work around to make your 700E operable. Enjoy it as they are spectacular pieces. The closest I can come is a 763E and boy is it a well engineered, smooth running model.

@Ryan Selvius posted:

Richard, that looks like an excellent work around to make your 700E operable. Enjoy it as they are spectacular pieces. The closest I can come is a 763E and boy is it a well engineered, smooth running model.

I was about the same age, when we picked up a Gun metal grey set with the Freight  cars, Beautifull set !

Yes, she is a smooth runner for being 80+ years old. But the motor is small and what from I read, they are not good pullers. In the video posted, I am running her at 16-18 volts and she is running a bit slow for only having to pull the tender, compared to my 773 Hudson, or 1-700e from 1990. Still a great engine. At some point, I will take her apart for a good cleaning and lube and maybe she will run even smoother and a bit faster with 18 volts.

I would love to get a gun metal 763E with the vandy tender. Very classy engine.

The 763 isn’t a great puller either, mostly due to wheel slip. Mine will only do about 4-5 semi scale freight cars on level track and it slips a bit when starting. Takes about 16-17 volts to run at a good clip. I tore the whole engine and tender down and did a full service on it.

These engines should pull a bit better on T-rail since there is more surface area on the railhead compared to tubular track. Wheel slip seems to be the biggest limitation in their pulling ability

You guys can add weight to your 700’s and 763’s…..I do it on every build,,…get it over the gear box as much as humanly possible, ….makes all the difference in the world….I was thinking there was a part number for a direct bolt on ballast weight for these things, but the number escapes my brain….

Pat

Original "bolt-on" weights for the 700E / 763E Hudsons appear frequently on eBay, typically because someone is parting-out a Hudson that has warped too badly to be salvageable.

The screws that secure the weight to the chassis are threaded 4x36.  Do not try to use 4x40 screws.

Don Hagar taught me how to check 700E and 763E shells for growth.  Lay a metric ruler on the right side running board and measure from the cab to the end of the running board at the boiler front.  If it exceeds 26.5 cm, the shell has grown and will cause the chassis to bind and the shell will eventually fail.  About 15 years ago, I spent $1700 on replacement shells from him to repair two customer’s engines.  He had a “go, no-go” gauge he used when buying Hudsons.  If the gauge didn’t fit the running board, he passed on it.

I took my engine apart to inspect the motor, e-unit, mechanical drive and inspect frame/shell warpage. I noticed that my engine does have the weight over the gearbox, not sure if all 700e's came with the weight. I carefully inspected the frame/shell and they both did not appear to have any warpage. The frame was very easy to unscrew and assemble back together. When removing the cow catcher completely (when I first added the temp cardboard shim, I only loosened the screw), I noticed the cow catcher screw head was slightly bent by the screw head. This meant that when tightening the cow catcher screw to the frame, this forced the cow catcher to sit low when the screw head was tightened flush. I found a similar screw from my Lionel post war parts and TADA!!!!! it sits okay now! No dragging cow catcher! I do have the 1990 1-700e to compare and that cow catcher is higher (I bought and installed the scale front trucks). I can still run my prewar 700e on tubular track (should be run on T-Rail) just fine! No cow catcher scrapping.

Onto another matter... I am still learning about these 700e's, and am no expert. My understanding is that the screw hole ports above the axels indicate 1939/40 production and have no serial numbers. The thin cab window frame is 1937/38 run. My engine has a serial number in the front part of the frame (# 382470), it's hard to see in the pics I am including. Do you guy's think I have a 1937/38 boiler on a 1939/40 frame? That would break my heart as it lowers the value of the engine. Thank you for all the comments and advice.

I believe the screw holes were added in 1938 which would align with the serial number being a 1938 serial number with prefix 38 and number 2470. Your frame is definitely a 1938. I can't tell if the boiler has a slot along the running board at the tool box (Don Hagar) just behind the boiler front, if so it is a 1937 boiler. The 1937 boiler will also have thin mullions on the cab windows. These were changed in 1938 with the gap below the toolbox being filled in as it made it hard to pull castings out of the dies (per Don Hagar). However that doesn't mean that a left over 1937 boiler was not put on the 1938 frame at the factory. Also, just a note I have seen warpage and zinc pest in 1939 and 1940 700e's as well. They should always be inspected before purchase. I bought a 1939 700e a few years ago on the bay and it was listed as having no zinc pest. After it arrived I carefully examined it with a flashlight and found a bunch of hairline cracks around the cab area and sent it back to the seller.

All, thank you for all the input. I have one more question. The cab numbers are faded off. Do I get a dry transfer decal or is their a pad printed stamp that I can buy to re-do the cab numbers? What is the best way. I want to do it right as this is a very expensive engine. I'm very happy to get her running the right way and no more cow catcher scrapping the third rail. Thanks!

Beautiful 700e, glad you got her sorted and can run the old girl.  Until I can afford a 700e, I enjoy its OO cousin from 1938, the 001 scale Hudson.  I am also about ready to pull the trigger on a 1-700e as well.   I love my NYC Hudsons.     AD

Artfull Dodger, that's a nice looking Hudson, she is a looker!. Yes, I am very happy and very lucky I got my 700e to run and find out nothing was warped. It ended up being a bent screw head, that when tighten down flush,  it forced the cow catcher to hang low. My Hudson does not have the best paint (few scratches and patina), but I know she was never restored or touched up. Now I just need to put some new cab numbers on so it will look a bit better. I bought this engine on a whim as it was a good price.

FYI, I do have a 1-700e that I bought back in 1996 and paid full pop (retail price) and though she does not have Command Control, good sound and all fine features of today's engines. She was made good ole U.S.A. by American workers in an American factory. Also, if you can afford a 773, get one of those, those are good runners (I have one too) and is second best thing than owning a full blown 700e.

I am planning to pick up a reissue 1-700e myself here shortly.  I have a drop in RS 2.5 sound system with correct Hudson sounds and whistle to replace the early RS1 it comes with.   Even 773's from the postwar time frame fetch darn good money, especially the 1950 version with the big tender.   One day, I will own a prewar 700e hopefully.   Till then, my "mini me" versions fill that prewar void.  I also need new cab numbers on my 002 semi scale Hudson.  Since its already heavily modified, I will number it 5341 or something other than the factory number.  I never got into the Command Control, just more to go wrong or go obsolete.  Give me an E unit, and basic puffing smoke if it has to have that.  Along with being made in the USA.  That is highly important to me personally.  AD

Yes! Good choice Artfull Dodger. You will be happy with your 1-700e, she was still made in America by American workers. And you can buy used in very good condition with display case for around $550 to $700 maybe a little cheaper or more expensive depending on condition.  I only bought my 700e as I got a very good deal and got very lucky (I sometimes get bad luck when buying used on ebay). I wanted a 700e for years, and thought I would never own one. So don't give up!

@artfull dodger, congratulations on possibly getting one of the Gold Standard 700 Lionel Hudson’s, hopefully in great condition, no warpage on either the boiler or the tender. I have had three VisionLine Hudson’s and liked them, but didn’t like the whistle. I do have the 773 Century Club hudson, almost mint, but I’m an operator, not a true collector. This hudson has its own spot on my shelf. For operating purposes, I have a K-Line TMCC Hudson that’s been through “Harmonyards”, the Harmon Shops, rebuilding the K-Line Hudson’s making them Stump Pullers. So, knowing a little about Lionel’s older Hudson’s, Pat at the Harmonyards can help you make this piece of history, a runner like never before imaginable. ( Larry Mullen has his Hudson renovated at Harmonyards, and loves it.) He will be at York with Mike Reagan, probably near the TW Works booth. I assuming that. Good luck and be sure and show us pictures of your new to you 700 Hudson. (I am a firm believer in Lionel Legacy command, it’s my favorite way to run my trains, just my preference, each to his own) Happy Railroading Everyone

I messed with TMCC when I was the repair tech for Harmon's Trains, that was the newest at that time.  Was neat but no need for it on a mostly late prewar/early postwar 4x8 layout that I had.   I just fixed the warped frame in my 001 Hudson today that came in todays mail, along with a full service she runs like new.  The OO's Hudsons warp due to a design flaw, the boiler shell does not sit firm on the headlight holder.  So the screw in the stack pull upwards on the frame, while the front cat walk ladders push down on the pilot.  Many times you can see the cylinders tipped forward.  Just requires a tear down to all is left is a frame with the drivers. I then jig it up with a block under the pilot and an old hobby squeeze clamp pulling downward directly above the front drive axle(with a spacer to the frame).  I then heat the frame between the driver and the pilot with my micro butane torch to "relax" the metal and let the clamp gently straighten the frame.  I then let it cool before I release the clamp.  Has worked every time with no damage to the engine.  I look for around a 16th of an inch gap between the cowcatcher bottom and the center rail.   For those that love the 700e and cannot afford it or are cursed with to small of a space to run one.  I can highly recommend picking up one of the OO ones, Gargraves makes track, both 2 and 3 rail so you can have a basic loop of new track.  The vintage track is highly prone to warping(bakelite roadbed) and is super expensive.  I do plan to eventually have a loop of 3 rail vintage track with switches, but not right now.   

Looks like a good catch...enjoy.

Tom