Lawsuits between Bud Ritter and Frank Pugliese

Unfortunately this is the first time I am hearing of this. What was "Collectors Corner"?

I recall reading about this action in the Toy Train Revue, and I also have wondered how it turned out.

I've never heard about it.   

But now I'm looking forward to the next installment.

When I lived in Baltimore from 79-83, Bud was a clerk in Antique Train &Toy World on Falls Rd. He was a very nice man and a big help as I was returning to the hobby after my schooling. After that, I would see Bud selling in the Blue Hall and we always chatted for a few minutes.

I remember reading about the lawsuit. However, I never heard about a resolution, either…..one has to wonder if illness or death put an end to it…….but, that’s just a speculation….

Peter

I think one way to close the search down some would be to know what state it was being held in. That would definitely narrow down the search a little. If there was anything else in the article that could narrow it down like case numbers or dates things started, that may also help. Only other thing would be maybe to contact the court system in the particular state to see if they had any information regarding it. That would be the last resort as it would be the one that would probably take a bit of time after all other avenues have been exhausted.

Since the amount in controversy was over $50,000 and maybe involving people in different states, it might have been a federal court case, not showing up in state court records.

Chuck

You might also use Mr Ritter's full name:  Clarence Ritter.

Apologies for the long post, but here's some more information.

The case was filed on November 6, 1992 in the Westchester County Supreme Court (in New York, the Supreme Court is the trial-level court). The case name was Clarence Ritter v. Frank Pugliese, D/B/A Collector's Corner, and the index number was 0017433/1992. I have looked on a sophisticated legal database (Westlaw) and don't find any decisions, but others may have more luck than me.

As described by Ritter himself in a lengthy piece in the Winter 1993 issue of TTR, he initially responded to a Collector's Corner ad and sent Pugliese a $30,000 cashier's check for an agreed-upon lot of trains. According to Ritter, when he went to pick up the trains, Pugliese provided only a few of them, promising to ship the rest shortly. Before Ritter received those trains, according to Ritter, Pugliese then talked up a much larger collection, and Ritter then wired Pugliese another $85,000. To make a long and colorful story short, Ritter ultimately took possession of 100 boxes of trains, most of which, according to Ritter, fell far short of the deal (and in his description were mostly junk).

In the same issue of TTR, Pugliese defended himself. According to him, Ritter had a full opportunity to inspect the larger lot of trains and did so with an expert for 12 hours before taking possession of them. It was only several weeks later, according to Pugliese, that Ritter sought to return them. Pugliese claimed Ritter was not telling the truth and was defaming him.

The summer 1993 TTR issue has a single sentence reporting the case was ongoing. The spring 1994 issue reports that depositions were taken on December 19, 1993 and that Ritter was prepared "to go to court" though no date had been sent. It ends, "The TTRJ was unable to reach Frank Pugliese to get his comment." At that point, the trail runs cold for me.

For those who were into the postwar scene at that time, this story captures the craziness of the moment and the sometimes shadowy cast of characters. The Collector's Corner ads (see attached CTT 3-1999 one as an example) were examples of ads run by various places listing new and LN postwar but often without any prices and just "call." You never knew whether these guys had the trains or were just flipping things in response to calls. And there were lots of questions about the legitimacy of pieces. Indeed, a big part of TTR's mission was to call out the scams.

Anyhow, if anyone knows more about the outcome of the case or the fates of Ritter and Pugliese, please share.

Chris Dunn

Did anyone ever go to store?

I don’t believe there was any store (the street address in the ad is a residence).

@Chris Dunn posted:

For those who were into the postwar scene at that time, this story captures the craziness of the moment and the sometimes shadowy cast of characters.

Chris, thanks for taking the time to research and type this up. It’s such an interesting story! For both sides, what could possibly go wrong with sending such large amounts of money to buy bulk collectibles sight unseen? A fool and his money....

"I have looked on a sophisticated legal database (Westlaw) and don't find any decisions, but others may have more luck than me."

Hmm...like so many other civil actions, it was likely settled. Might explain the difficulty in finding any reported court rulings.

I was just going to say, if you can't find a decision it likely was settled, a large percent of civil cases are settled out of court. @Chris Dunn thanks for posting the details. Looking back from today, where post war is pretty much a commodity item, seeing the frenzy back in the 80's-90's kind of looks, well, weird. Personally if someone stiffed me on one order, I wouldn't wire them money for a second. 

Would be interesting to find out the outcome with this, but unless someone knows someone close to the case not likely, given it is almost 30 years later...(now I feel old.....that the 90's was 30 years ago!).

For what it's worth...

Forty-five years ago, I lived near Antique Toy and Train World on Falls Road in Baltimore.  The store was always well stocked.  Many of the items in my collection, including my first #773 Hudson, came from there.   

Approximately forty years ago, I sent money to Frank Pugliese to purchase an item that was shown in his Collector's Corner ad.  The item was never shipped.  Lots of excuses.  I did not get a refund until I sent a letter of complaint to the TCA.

@700E posted:

For what it's worth...

Forty-five years ago, I lived near Antique Toy and Train World on Falls Road in Baltimore.  The store was always well stocked.  Many of the items in my collection, including my first #773 Hudson, came from there.   

Approximately forty years ago, I sent money to Frank Pugliese to purchase an item that was shown in his Collector's Corner ad.  The item was never shipped.  Lots of excuses.  I did not get a refund until I sent a letter of complaint to the TCA.

Sad.  Why do people think it's OK to take money and not deliver the item?  Glad you got your refund - back when the risk of losing one's TCA membership meant something.  These days, would TCA even threaten to pull someone's membership over a deal that was made outside of a TCA meet or its for-sale listings?

@Mallard4468 posted:

Sad.  Why do people think it's OK to take money and not deliver the item?  Glad you got your refund - back when the risk of losing one's TCA membership meant something.  These days, would TCA even threaten to pull someone's membership over a deal that was made outside of a TCA meet or its for-sale listings?

@Mallard4468,

Just to clarify, can you define "meant something" for us?

I've been considering joining, but I seem to be hearing that the good old days of the TCA are long gone.

Are you saying that TCA used to throw people out and now no longer does so?

Or is it bigger than that?  Are there many things that TCA once did and no longer does?

Mike

This is why EBAY can exist, people cannot trust each other when it comes to money.

EBAY offers a safe place to do business and money back protection.

Customers want security and private transactions.

Craigslist is great for person to person deal face to face, but less private and some safety risk.

I prefer swap type shows and cash sales.

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

@Mallard4468,

Just to clarify, can you define "meant something" for us?

I've been considering joining, but I seem to be hearing that the good old days of the TCA are long gone.

Are you saying that TCA used to throw people out and now no longer does so?

Or is it bigger than that?  Are there many things that TCA once did and no longer does?

Mike

I've been a member continuously since 1989, and know a lot of folks who joined long before that.  When I joined, you needed to have two sponsors on your application, although by the time I joined almost anyone would sign a stranger's application.  Back then, the primary way to buy or sell was at meets or via person-to-person contact, so being a member in good standing was the gateway to that market.

TCA will still get involved when a member violates the rules, usually regarding misrepresentation.  However, I doubt that they will get involved regarding a transaction between an individual and a business (which is what this case appears to have been).  And I'm not sure that the threat of being kicked out carries the weight that it once did.  I have no direct experience - when I buy or sell used stuff (never anything rare), it's almost entirely in-person, so I've never filed a complaint or had one filed against me.  I've read about the occasional suspension or removal of a member, but the details are only discussed in "executive session".

I'm a strong advocate of joining at least one national organization that supports our hobby, and I think that TCA is still the best one for most 3-railers.  Like any organization, it has its flaws, but overall I believe that it deserves our support, especially since it maintains the museum and an extensive repository of historical information.

And like anything, organizational or otherwise, there are folks who will tell you that it used to be better.  I take it with a grain of salt.  While meets used to be bigger, the trend towards less acquisition and more operating means that meets are becoming ways to actually meet other people.

If there are meets in your area, or if you live within driving distance of York and the museum, consider joining for a year and decide for yourself.

I would certainly hope that the TCA would suspend someone's membership over a bad deal, or at least investigate. Otherwise, what are we paying $50/yr for !?

Whether or not someone is listed in the TCA member ranks is at least part of my calculus when making a bigger purchase on the second hand market.

@Mallard4468 posted:

Sad.  Why do people think it's OK to take money and not deliver the item?  

Because they are criminals.  Don’t try to understand them.  Honest people are baffled by criminals.  You can’t understand them because they have sociopathic mother boards in their brains.  Don’t bother. Just lock them up.
I had reached this understanding after being an addiction doctor and having worked with the Department of Justice.  Some people are just bad.
Alan

@totrainyard posted:

This is why EBAY can exist, people cannot trust each other when it comes to money.

EBAY offers a safe place to do business and money back protection.

Customers want security and private transactions.

Craigslist is great for person to person deal face to face, but less private and some safety risk.

I prefer swap type shows and cash sales.

Ebay is where over 80-85% of my collection comes from now, have had my share of "what in the heck happened to this engine" moments, but I haven't had an issue with a seller accepting a return in that case, and in the unluckily event push came to shove, Ebay holds sellers with an extremely tight leash around the sale, so money back guarantee would ensure a good resolution if the worst were to occur.

Online sales have largely gotten rid of the entire pain point of dishonesty through dump and run schemes, especially with buyer protections and credit card protections. And as a plus, I can buy models from anywhere in the world, all from the comfort of my pajamas and a computer/phone, and a few days to a few weeks later boxes of items arrive.

21st century train shopping has definitely eliminated some of the fun of heading to a store, but at the same time it's opened up literally thousands of opportunities to find items you might have never otherwise have found.

A good tie-in back to this original OP topic, something like this would never fly now a days, the incentive is to under promise and overdeliver, or promise correctly and overdeliver, which is definitely showing with competitive pricing all over the place.

@ajzend posted:

Because they are criminals.  Don’t try to understand them.  Honest people are baffled by criminals.  You can’t understand them because they have sociopathic mother boards in their brains.  Don’t bother. Just lock them up.
I had reached this understanding after being an addiction doctor and having worked with the Department of Justice.  Some people are just bad.
Alan

Alan

You are absolutely right

This is the whole problem with our current society in a nutshell

Honest people think they can make most bad people better, Some people are just bad

We live in Phila (in, not near or close,in) we do alot of traveling around South Jersey,and in some of these out of the way small towns my wife will mention that most of these people can't comprehend bad people,look around how peaceful and nice everybody is,

We get more hello how you doing from strangers in one day than we will get from people walking down our sidewalk in one year

(this applies to Vermont also when we used to go snow skiing there}

When we are on different boardwalks we can pick em right of a crowd, we look em right in the eyes and they know we're not the ones to F with, and it's not because we're intimating , we're in our late 60s, its just that there are so many other people to pull their nonsense on if they are up for it