Legacy and a TMCC Caboose

MartyE posted:

Does anyone have any experience using a TMCC caboose in a TR (Train) setup? 

 

I just got this yesterday and was playing with it.  When assigned the same ID as the engine all works as expected.

 

When assigned a unique ID and added into a train, because it's not the lead engine I cannot get the sounds to trigger with the engine.  I am running in TMCC mode and was wondering if I need to be in CAB1 mode.  According to the ancient manual for TMCC operation the idea is to assign it as a "front" engine.  Not sure what they mean but regardless when assigning it as a forward facing engine it doesn't do a think unless it's the lead engine.  Then of course the loco doesn't sound the horn and such.

 

Just curious if those who have one, how is it entered into the TR (Train) using Legacy?

Marty,

I purchased a CrewTalk caboose from a fellow Forum member yesterday, and, after fiddling for a while, I was able to lash it up with a TMCC engine in a train that I can access from my CAB-2. Both the engine and the caboose perform together in response to commands to the train via the CAB-2. Cool!

BUT: today, I want to put the caboose in a train with a different TMCC engine--and I cannot remember what I finally did yesterday that worked, and I have been unable to recreate it.

Did you ever figure this out?

Cheers!

Keith

OK, I recreated how to do it:

First, use the CAB-2 to set up the train (lash-up) with a train link. At this point, you can toggle between the train and the train-linked caboose to trigger the TowerCom and the CrewTalk of the engine and the caboose.

Second, use a CAB-1 to set up the train following the directions on pp. 12-13 of the caboose's owner's manual (https://www.lionelsupport.com/...ents/71-9889-250.pdf). Now--with either the CAB-1 or the CAB-2--when you address the train and initiate TowerCom or CrewTalk, the engine and the caboose will talk to each other.

Cheers!

Keith

Keith, does that work with just setting up the caboose with the CAB-1, or does the engine need to be set up with the CAB-1 as well?

I am confused, Which "TMCC caboose" are we talking about? There are two versions:

1. Lionel 6-19889 (et all) Crewtalk cabooses.

2. Lionel 6-29834 and 35 Trainsounds cabooses. (If you don't believe me, look up the #.)

I personally own the crewtalk caboose. When I first got it, I attempted to "MU" it with a TMCC engine. It did not work. I left frustrated. I came back 5 minutes later and redid the "train" and it functioned properly. Just keep trying.

Sidenote 1. The crewtalk caboose works surprisingly well with RS5 engines. I thought they would be talking over each other, but they do not.

Sidenote 2. Anyone have a video of a trainsounds caboose they would be willing to share here or to me privately via email? I have been wanting one, but since I already have the crewtalk one, I am hesitant.

Sidenote 3. Yes! A legacy caboose would be a great idea.

Recent Legacy updates have had fixes for Train-Link operation, so that would be a first step if you're having issues.

In response to the questions/comments after my last post...

Professor, I'm not sure what you're asking, but if you only want to trigger the interactive dialogue with a CAB-1, then, of course, you only need to create the train with a CAB-1 in accordance with the instructions in the caboose's owner's manual. That's straightforward. However, if you want to trigger the automatic interactive dialogue with a CAB-2, simply creating the train with the CAB-1 will do nothing to the CAB-2. If you want to be able to trigger the automatic dialogue with the CAB-2, you first need to set up the train with the CAB-2 in the normal way. This will take you halfway there. You'll be able to use TrainLink to toggle between the train and the caboose and create the dialogue manually. To accomplish the necessary "tweak" that allows the engine and caboose to communicate with each other automatically by simply pressing TowerCom or CrewTalk when addressing the train, you need to create the train with a CAB-1--in accordance with the special instructions in the caboose's owner's manual--after having created the train with the CAB-2.

Nick, we're only talking about the four CrewTalk cabooses that Lionel produced:

6-19742 Erie - 1998
6-19749 Southern Pacific (part of a set) - 1998
6-19889 Pennsylvania - 2001
6-19890 Santa Fe - 2001

I have no experience with the TrainSounds cabooses.

It is indeed simple to MU the CrewTalk cabooses with a TMCC engine--as long as you follow the special directions in the owner's manual. It's trickier if you want the automatic interactive dialogue to function when addressing a train from a CAB-2.

John, the issue is not with TrainLink. My base is running 1.60, and my CAB-2 is running 1.61. I confess to being OCD about keeping up with the latest versions. As I mentioned above, TrainLink works fine in allowing you to toggle back and forth between the train and the caboose and trigger the interactive dialogue manually. But, to me, the really cool thing about the CrewTalk cabooses is how they automatically produce a dialogue between the engine and the caboose by simply pressing TowerCom or CrewTalk when addressing the train.

I think the issue may be that this special functionally was developed when Legacy was just a melody beginning to form in Neil Young's head. There was no thought to how it would work with a CAB-2. And when Legacy and the CAB-2 were being developed, it's quite possible that with all the many things they were trying to make the new system do--and that it does--no thought was given to accommodating the special functionality incorporated into the CrewTalk cabooses.

Cheers!

Keith

I'm going to call on Rudy again.  See if he can comment based on your procedure.  How about it @Railsounds ?

I think the TMCC engine and caboose worked well because the engine had a significant delay when you triggered tower talk.  I'm pretty sure that meshed well with the talk from the caboose.  Since the Legacy locomotives, or the newer TMCC with RS5 don't have the delay, it throws a wrench into the gears.

I have one of the Erie cabooses, when I get all together in my new place, maybe I can try to get it working with a Legacy engine.

MartyE,

   Got to admit I would love to see the Legacy Scale Caboose produced also, especially with all the cool sounds!

PCRR/Dave

Keith L posted:

OK, I recreated how to do it:

First, use the CAB-2 to set up the train (lash-up) with a train link. At this point, you can toggle between the train and the train-linked caboose to trigger the TowerCom and the CrewTalk of the engine and the caboose.

Second, use a CAB-1 to set up the train following the directions on pp. 12-13 of the caboose's owner's manual (https://www.lionelsupport.com/...ents/71-9889-250.pdf). Now--with either the CAB-1 or the CAB-2--when you address the train and initiate TowerCom or CrewTalk, the engine and the caboose will talk to each other.

Cheers!

Keith

An important clarification:

Between setting up the train with the CAB-2 in the normal way and setting up the train with the CAB-1 following the directions in the caboose's owner's manual, you need to shut down, power down, then power back up.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I think the TMCC engine and caboose worked well because the engine had a significant delay when you triggered tower talk.  I'm pretty sure that meshed well with the talk from the caboose.  Since the Legacy locomotives, or the newer TMCC with RS5 don't have the delay, it throws a wrench into the gears.

I have one of the Erie cabooses, when I get all together in my new place, maybe I can try to get it working with a Legacy engine.

John, you're correct that the TowerCom from a pre-RS5 TMCC engine and the caboose mesh because the engine's TowerCom has a delay and the caboose's TowerCom does not: when you activate TowerCom when addressing a train, the caboose's TowerCom plays immediately followed by the engine's (delayed) TowerCom.

The CrewTalk works the opposite way. The caboose's CrewTalk has a delay and the engine's CrewTalk does not: when you activate CrewTalk when addressing a train, the engine's CrewTalk plays immediately followed by the caboose's (delayed) CrewTalk.

I haven't tried the CrewTalk caboose with a Legacy engine yet, but I plan to, and I'm interested to see how it will work.

Wonder why the crew talk cabooses are only made in bay window configuration cars?

Ok this is an OLD response but I have a OLD (new to me) 6-19749 SP Caboose.  I see on the bottom, I have only a snd/no snd switch, NO pgm/run switch.  How do I assign a number to this?  What am I missing? Will crewtalk automatically come into play when its coupled to another loco? Im very confused.

@Don Beck posted:

Ok this is an OLD response but I have a OLD (new to me) 6-19749 SP Caboose.  I see on the bottom, I have only a snd/no snd switch, NO pgm/run switch.  How do I assign a number to this?  What am I missing? Will crewtalk automatically come into play when its coupled to another loco? Im very confused.

It may only work from the horn / bell button. Not all of them were TMCC.

Don,

The manual (71-9889-250) for your caboose, if its is indeed a 6-19749, shows that there is a pgm/run switch, although the labeling appears to be unclear:

Does your caboose have this, or is it truly missing?

Mike

MISSING  maybe because this part of the 'warehouse' set

Perhaps the snd/no snd switch is really the run/pgm switch, but was mislabeled. I have a different early CrewTalk Caboose, the 6-19890 Santa Fe. It has a run/pgm switch, but no snd/no snd switch.

thought if that but in either position i cant get it to accept a ID  Cant figure how to configure it. FRT SNDS? or what?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I think the TMCC engine and caboose worked well because the engine had a significant delay when you triggered tower talk.  I'm pretty sure that meshed well with the talk from the caboose.  Since the Legacy locomotives, or the newer TMCC with RS5 don't have the delay, it throws a wrench into the gears.

I have one of the Erie cabooses, when I get all together in my new place, maybe I can try to get it working with a Legacy engine.

John, You have described the operation perfectly in that the TMCC engine had a delay for Tower comm.  Legacy does not, as the crew talk cabooses are designed to be on Train-Link.  The reason is that the user gets to decide the timing on when the engine dialogs play, and when the caboose dialogs play.  The ultimate in user control, and was a highly requested feature when Cab-2 was designed.  Up to 5 linked devices can be on a train, and this can support operating cars of all types.  For example a train could have a crew talk caboose, a hotbox reefer, a stock car, etc.  It is faster to select a linked device, and not have to select a TMCC address to gain control of a car, and the throttle stays with the loco.

Some folks won't like this flexibility, and want the dialogs to sequence on their own.  The way this was supposed to work was to press the Train Link button on ID's you don't want to be linked. Then they are programmed like a Cab-1 and don't show a train linked device; but rather are part of the train.  This timing would only work for TMCC locos, as Legacy does not delay dialogs.  Unfortunately.....

I just had a look: I tried to remove the train link device indicator above the FRT or PAS setting on the Cab-2.  I don't think the Cab-2 is working right as it assigns the loco to "end unit", not "head unit" in this situation.  This is probably why a Cab-1(L) works and Cab-2 does not.  Maybe this can be addressed on the Cab-2 with an upgrade to fix the issue.

Interesting, I wonder if Lionel is interested in upgrading the CAB2 to fix stuff like this.  I'm still waiting for an LCS fix for switch positions, so I have my doubts.

@SantaFeFan posted:

I just had a look: I tried to remove the train link device indicator above the FRT or PAS setting on the Cab-2.  I don't think the Cab-2 is working right as it assigns the loco to "end unit", not "head unit" in this situation.  This is probably why a Cab-1(L) works and Cab-2 does not.  Maybe this can be addressed on the Cab-2 with an upgrade to fix the issue.

So using a Cab 1L will operate a TMCC engine with a TMCC caboose just the same as the Cab 1 would, is that correct?

(Some time ago I got rid of my Cab 1 and replaced it with a Cab 1L, but have not tried it with my TMCC caboose.)

The CAB1L treats them as TMCC, just like the CAB1, so you'll get TMCC behavior.

@Don Beck posted:

thought if that but in either position i cant get it to accept a ID  Cant figure how to configure it. FRT SNDS? or what?

The Crew Talk caboose would be a PAS car type, not a FRT car type.

@breezinup posted:

So using a Cab 1L will operate a TMCC engine with a TMCC caboose just the same as the Cab 1 would, is that correct?

(Some time ago I got rid of my Cab 1 and replaced it with a Cab 1L, but have not tried it with my TMCC caboose.)

YES.

Right. That works as a PAS But here’s the thing.  When I use the same ID# for a loco with BT it will default to that engine spec so   It may not work. Might have to use two different IDs right?

Thanks very much, Jon. That's great.

(Well, there's another advantage the Cab 1L has over the Cab 2!) 

Probably likely that the new Base 3/Cab 3 will have the same issue as the Cab 2. Interesting that to date there's nothing else Lionel (or anyone else) has made that provides conversation/sound effects back and forth between an engine and caboose. It's a pretty cool effect.

@MartyE posted:

Does anyone have any experience using a TMCC caboose in a TR (Train) setup?

I just got this yesterday and was playing with it.  When assigned the same ID as the engine all works as expected.

When assigned a unique ID and added into a train, because it's not the lead engine I cannot get the sounds to trigger with the engine.  I am running in TMCC mode and was wondering if I need to be in CAB1 mode.  According to the ancient manual for TMCC operation the idea is to assign it as a "front" engine.  Not sure what they mean but regardless when assigning it as a forward facing engine it doesn't do a think unless it's the lead engine.  Then of course the loco doesn't sound the horn and such.

Just curious if those who have one, how is it entered into the TR (Train) using Legacy?

I have operated a few cars as part of the MU setup. For what ever reason some do and some do not. I have also had cars programed in and then all of a sudden nothing. I think its a software quirk.