Legacy Big-Boy stops at random, then starts again...

Ingeniero No1 posted:

 Any ideas what else I may try?

Alex

 

Well until someone chimes in....

I would guess that the board is either losing power or maybe experiencing a short?

I don't work on or with Legacy boards. Most steamers have issues with the connection to the tender.

Maybe shut the lights off and look for any sparking underneath? (shorting wire)

Seems interesting that it will respond right away to the remote.

Where's GGG, Marty, Alex, GRJ, ......????

I had an ERR diesel that did just that. It went fine and then stopped at, in my case, random places. It would respond instantly to a restart. I was advised to change out the R2LC to a different version, I did, and that fixed it.

Doesn't apply to a Legacy, but raises the question, what happens electronically that makes it just stop and lose it's command of speed and direction?

That sounds like a loss of signal issue.  Since it's only the Big Boy, I'd first check the antenna connections (handrails) and make sure there's nothing amiss there.  It's possible that the TMCC receiver on the RCMC has developed a problem.  I'd probably first just see if it's seated, they tend to work themselves loose.

This post from Alex may help you get inside easier

https://ogrforum.com/...boy-tons-of-pictures

I'm thinking he has this UNION PACIFIC LEGACY LIONMASTER 4-8-8-4 BIG BOY #4006 SKU: 6-11149 and not the Vision line one. Link to the Engine Parts for that engine. The R4LC is $54 from Lionel if that is what is needed. I would try reseating that board as GRJ has suggested before making a purchase.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

That sounds like a loss of signal issue.  Since it's only the Big Boy, I'd first check the antenna connections (handrails) and make sure there's nothing amiss there.  It's possible that the TMCC receiver on the RCMC has developed a problem.  I'd probably first just see if it's seated, they tend to work themselves loose.

So the Legacy boards would revert to zero speed if signal is lost correct? ( that fixes the very old tmcc run at full speed issue? )

Engineer-Joe posted:

So the Legacy boards would revert to zero speed if signal is lost correct? ( that fixes the very old tmcc run at full speed issue? )

Well... sort of fixes it, but it's the same for TMCC as for Legacy.

When a TMCC/Legacy locomotive in command mode senses loss of signal, it will stop and blink the headlight.  The FIRST power cycle after running in command mode will bring the locomotive up in neutral.  After the first power cycle without a TMCC/Legacy signal on the tracks, the locomotive starts up in forward.

It is a UNION PACIFIC VISION LEGACY SCALE 4-8-8-4 BIG BOY #4006

I will check the handrail connections. Unlike Chuck's experience, my Big Boy acts up only at one location most of the time, and one other occasionally. These are the locations where I added the ground wire - I will revisit this as well.

THX!

Alex 

Could she be tipping or losing power right at those spots then? Some kind of tighter corner?

Can you test her on rollers or test leads and move the tender connection?

Have you checked the antenna for a short?

Engineer-Joe posted:

Could she be tipping or losing power right at those spots then? Some kind of tighter corner?

(Alex) - I do not believe there are dead spots as other engines would show this if there were. Curves are Ø108" and Ø99", but it happens on straights!

Can you test her on rollers or test leads and move the tender connection?

(Alex) - I am not sure what you mean;  there is no connection (wire) between the tender and the loco.

Have you checked the antenna for a short?

(Alex) - Not yet 

Thanks, Joe!

Alex

If all else fails, there is the soon to be available TMCC Buffer I'm trying to finish up.

Yes, sorry. I'm spitballin' as I have no idea about this. I'm just taking a stab at what I've run into.

Yes other engines might not mind but there's always a problem child isn't there!

I had a board from an engine that had gone thru shorting from a factory missing insulator. That board always was the picky one. So I always use it to tune the layout. If it runs smoothly, I know everything else I own will!

 So good luck and be patient. Sometimes posting here will get ideas that might be a home run!

Ingeniero No1 posted:

Engineer-Joe posted:

 

Can you test her on rollers or test leads and move the tender connection?

(Alex) - I am not sure what you mean;  there is no connection (wire) between the tender and the loco.

 

Thanks, Joe!

Alex

I thought there would be something connecting to the tender? On my MTH steamers, sometimes a wire will break there or a bad solder joint at that connection gets flexed.

Is this one of the optical (wireless) tethers? I have never worked on them only read of them.

http://www.lionel.com/products...ig-boy-4006-6-11434/

"Wireless Tether connection between locomotive and tender"

Joe, most of the Lionel command TMCC or Legacy steam has the wireless tether.  There are a few exceptions, the Legacy B6sb is a notable exception that I actually own.  The Lionel locomotives will run fine without the tender, only the sound will be missing.  For the VL-BB, even that will be half there as there is a sound system in the locomotive and the tender.

Ahh, thanks GRJ.

So the RC board thing is in the engine? How does that handle power interruptions? Is that prone to memory loss? ( engines stops and yet is ready to go?)

I've really got to study this set-up better. I thought the old TMCC boards were just like DCC decoders. The radio part lost me. Now I'm way behind! 

I would take it to another layout if you can and run it.  Always stopping at same places would lead me to believe track work signal in that area.

That fact you still have control even after a stop means your antenna on the engine is fine. 

No other engines have issues in this area?

If not, you could change the radio board on the RCMC.  Maybe a sensitivity issue.

John, What is your soon to be release TMCC buffer going to do for a Legacy engine?  G

GGG posted:

I would take it to another layout if you can and run it.  Always stopping at same places would lead me to believe track work signal in that area.

(Alex) - Sad to say, but I do not know anyone who has a layout in my vicinity, say within 30 miles.

That fact you still have control even after a stop means yourantenna on the engine is fine. 

(Alex) That's good news!

No other engines have issues in this area?

(Alex) That is correct; only the VL Big Boy.

If not, you could change the radio board on the RCMC.  Maybe a sensitivity issue.

John, What is your soon to be release TMCC buffer going to do for a Legacy engine?  G

John, Joe, George - Thank you for your suggestions!

Below is a diagram of my layout showing the problem areas. (A) occurred when I first installed Legacy, and was solved with a ground wire. (B) is the worse offender as it happens almost every time the Big Boy travels through there. (C) and (D) have occurred only once or twice.

THX!

Alex

GGG posted:

John, What is your soon to be release TMCC buffer going to do for a Legacy engine?  G

George, TMCC or Legacy has the same frequency carrier, the TMCC buffer is just a low impedance buffer for the signal to allow the base to drive a much higher capacitance.  It works for Legacy or TMCC exactly the same way.

Two things to try. They sound crazy but worked for me. I have a tmcc diesel that did the same thing. I oiled the rollers and problem solved. On another engine I looked at which piece of rolling stock was just over a switch when the engine stopped. I went back 12 cars and low and behold the car had just enough spark to cause the engine to stop but not trip a ZWL breaker. It was a Ross switch so I was able to put a track pin in the end of the non powered rail to help guide the wheel. Problem solved. You could also simply remove the car and see what happens.

romiller49 posted:

Two things to try. They sound crazy but worked for me. I have a tmcc diesel that did the same thing. I oiled the rollers and problem solved. On another engine I looked at which piece of rolling stock was just over a switch when the engine stopped. I went back 12 cars and low and behold the car had just enough spark to cause the engine to stop but not trip a ZWL breaker. It was a Ross switch so I was able to put a track pin in the end of the non powered rail to help guide the wheel. Problem solved. You could also simply remove the car and see what happens.

Rod,

I cleaned the wheels and rollers when the problem surface a few weeks ago, and oiled rollers and axles as well.

I had not thought about running the loco by itself, and since I do have a Ross switch several feet behind where the problem occurs frequently, I was hoping to have the same results as you did, so I tried it last night. Unfortunately, the loco stopped at the same spot, all by itself. Moving the Break Slider brought it back to life immediately. Following this test, I ran four other Legacy engines through the same area without any problems.

I am going to relocate my ground wire at this spot, (B) in the diagram above, and see if that helps.

THANKS!

Alex

I’m curious about the pickup rollers. Are they properly strong springs and protrude down as far as your other engines? This just seems like a brief power glitch...maybe a slight downward depression in the foot or so of track. Test that with a straight edge. The Big Boy is a looong engine and could lift the rollers engough to cause a slight power loss.

does the direction the loco travels make a difference?

Thanks for trying Alex. I was hoping you would get lucky as I did. Keep trying though. Just let us know when you find the solution.

Hi Alex, The odd thing that gets me is why moving the brake slider gets the engine moving again. Did you ever make a recording with this engine? If you did maybe the Legacy base is sending out parts of the recording? Did you try a engine reset?

Just a couple thoughts,Doug

I'm going to step in only because I had the same problem with my Big Boy, and only my BB. Same spot on my layout. No other engine had the problem. I discovered the problem by accident. After my BB stopped, instead of walking around the layout and move the BB forward or backwards, I decided to send an engine down the track to push it backwards. As soon as it crossed a section of track the BB started up. I recreated this once more, BB stopped at same section, moving an engine ahead over the section it would start up again. I didn't try anything else with the BB to see if it would start up by itself, but I did spray some electronic cleaner on the ends of the section of track that I had sent the helper engine over were the BB re-started. Afterwards, my BB hasn't stopped or hesitated since on that section.  

May not work for you, but solved my problem, and basically I also had a switch in area.         

I do not think his BB is loosing power though.  He says it will start moving again and he still has control.  This is just a case where a stop order is given for some reason.  Alex can confirm that, but those are the critical points I thought I read in his description that means it is not a grounded antenna issue or a loss of power issue.

TMCC/Legacy can do some strange things when the serial data communication gets messed up.  I do not know all the technical reasons, and some of the things I have seen could not be fully explained.

But if this was my engine I would swap the R4LC for a R4LC S03 if modular.  Or change the Radio board on the newer set up.

G

gunrunnerjohn posted:

GGG posted:

John, What is your soon to be release TMCC buffer going to do for a Legacy engine?  G

George, TMCC or Legacy has the same frequency carrier, the TMCC buffer is just a low impedance buffer for the signal to allow the base to drive a much higher capacitance.  It works for Legacy or TMCC exactly the same way.

Ok,  Got you.  Unfortunately this can only solve 1/3 of the problems.  Serial data strength.  It won't solve receiver issues, nor processor corrupted serial data issues that can occur.  The last should not be an issue for a production engine, unless some component on the Radio board can be failing.  G

GGG posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

GGG posted:

John, What is your soon to be release TMCC buffer going to do for a Legacy engine?  G

George, TMCC or Legacy has the same frequency carrier, the TMCC buffer is just a low impedance buffer for the signal to allow the base to drive a much higher capacitance.  It works for Legacy or TMCC exactly the same way.

Ok,  Got you.  Unfortunately this can only solve 1/3 of the problems.  Serial data strength.  It won't solve receiver issues, nor processor corrupted serial data issues that can occur.  The last should not be an issue for a production engine, unless some component on the Radio board can be failing.  G

I agree 100% George.  The TMCC buffer is really specifically for large layouts with lots of track and high distributed capacitance to earth ground.  That's it's primary reason for existing.  For layouts with less than 1000-1200 feet of track, I can't visualize many situations where it would be the solution to such issues.

I had that same issue with a Berk.  After hours of trying to figure it out, I wound up cleaning the pilot and trailing truck wheels and putting more tension on the ground wipers.  Solved it.  Inspect for loose wires too.