Legacy Shay - Info needed

If you are set on the Legacy featured models, I think the 2 truck variety(no separate tender - it's integrated in the boiler frame) is the only one (in several road names) available.  The big issue that there was quite a thread on (long read) in the recent past was the engine's inability to navigate smaller curves when connected to rolling stock.  (i.e., the engine by itself could pass, but the coupler didn't swing enough to navigate the smaller curves).  (here's an additional thread on the topic).  When K-Line made this version of the shay (same tooling, which Lionel acquired after K-Line was no more), they included an optional extension bracket to fix this issue.  Lionel did not include this bracket.

There was also an issue with at least a good number of (perhaps not all) of the 2 truck shay's being wrapped up in their paper at the factory before the paint was fully dried.  I originally ordered a WSL 2 truck shay, and literally had to try to peel the paper from the surface of the trucks.  Lionel tried to make good on those by tweaking the finish somewhat, but for me it was still unacceptable in the condition it was returned form Lionel.  Later on when they blew out some of the other road names, I decided for the lower price I would take my chances.  I now have a Pickering 2 truck model that had some of the finish issues, but I'm willing to live with it for the ~ $200 less that I paid for it vs. my original pre-ordered WSL model price.  I only mention this in case you are as critical of finish flaws as I may be.  A lot of people did not apparently have this issue, or it was not obvious enough for them to care too much.

I noted on the other thread from a few days ago references to the Cass #7 (3 truck model with tender), which was only cataloged with TMCC, not Legacy.  (I don't have one, I suppose it's possible Lionel upgraded it to Legacy before release, it was from the time period where Legacy was just coming out).  Whether they are Legacy or not, the 3 truck models with the separate tender have always required O54, primarily due to the drive shaft needing to not fall out of the socket where the tender pivots from the main engine body. 

Hope this helps.

{edited to add links to previous threads on the issue}

-Dave

Dave,

    I really appreciate your post, I had not seen the longer thread discussion before, nuts I really wanted one of these Legacy Shay Engines, I have reworked Tin plate Couplers to accommodate 036 track before, however I do not know if I should get into doing it with this Legacy Shay 2 truck or not, wish Lionel would have used the complete K-Line engineering package, that is for darn sure.  I will definitely need to give this some further thought.  Had to already go back to 031 RealTrax for my inside Oval, could not use the new Lionel 031 FasTrack inside my 036 FasTrack. Because I am a Professional Welding Engineer from the NASA Star Wars Project, for the life of me, I do not understand engineering mistakes like these, that cost the partent company millions of dollars, especially in today economy.  I guess if I want to own a Shay I will need to come up with a coupler extention fix or redesign my next Christmas layout with min 048 FasTrack.  At least now I know what I am gettin into if I make the Legacy Shay purchase. 

Thanks a bunch Dave for you post.

PCRR/Dave

I have two of the two-truck Shays (one Lionel Legacy and one K-Line).  I found that the Lionel locomotive would negotiate 036 FasTrack curves by itself, but was problematic when it had a load behind it.  As noted by others, the K-Line model has an extension bracket which allows it to operate (with cars) more reliably on O36 curves.

I have no problem whatsoever with the finish on either my Lionel or K-Line models (both are West Side Lumber).

I also have a Lionel Heisler and recently acquired two of the new MTH Climax locomotives.  Since I obviously like geared locomotives, I'm going to be changing all my FasTrack over to GarGraves, with an O42 minimum curve.  I figure all those geared models--K-Line, Lionel, and MTH-- should be fine with that.  I have all the new GarGraves track I need (but don't have the switches yet), so all I really need to do is get off my butt and get working.

Allan,

   IMO you are making a big mistake going away from FasTrack especially now with the Command Control switches available, which eliminates all switch wiring.  If you are going to sell your Fastrack let me know, we will work something out.  We had GG track on our Club layout at the old Iron Horse, had trouble with my Tin Plate running on it, especially the switches.  If you are running post war stuff and modern you should be fine however.  Thanks for the advise on the Legacy Shay with the 036 track!

Allan did your Legacy Shay run thru your FasTrack switches on a repetative basis?

PCRR/Dave 

Not so fast Dave, maybe I want some of that Fastrack.

John,

   Ok you can have all the 031 & 036 track and the non Command Control Switches.

OOPs did I really say that, to a guy who has helped me so much.

John do you have a Legacy Shay?

PCRR/Dave

I do not have a Legacy Shay, I have the TMCC Three-Truck Shay.  I don't need no more stinkin' O36 track or switches!

I enjoy my three-truck Lionel TMCC "Birch Valley Lumber Company" Shay. It is basically a model of the Western Maryland GIANT #6 Shay! 

grjohn,

   What is the min radius FasTrack you are running the Legacy Shay on?  Does it run thu the switches OK?

Tinplate Art,

   Good to see you posting sir, did not know you had the Birch Giant Shay, must be a goodie!  I am looking at the Legacy Pa Power & Light Shay, we shall see how all this washes out.

PCRR/Dave

The first part of this video has my Legacy Shay in action - great running engine.

Jim,

   Great video, your Legacy Shay is just fantastic, the log Cars are perfect.

Looks like you are not having any problems as long as you have big long curves to run the Shay on.

PCRR/Dave

Dave,

I mean to mention that the tightest I have run it on is O42 - no problem at all on that or on any of my Ross switches down to #4s.

Jim

I'm running on O72, I haven't tried tighter turns.  So far, no problems.  The book says O54, when I get it up to the club, I'll try it on the Atlas switches, the yard has O54 in and out.

Jim,

   You know of course you are killing me, FasTrack has no 042 curves, 036 or 048.

This is exactly what I was afraid might happen, however RealTrax does have 042.

Is there a direct transition track from FasTrack to RealTrax without going thru tubular?

If so I could still work this out, using both tracks, God knows I have enough of it.

PCRR/Dave

That is the main reason I'm switching over to GarGraves:  Offers O42.  That will work better for my purposes than O48, which is a bit too large for the 4-foot width I have available in several areas of the layout.

Alan,

   It was also the reason Frank used GG for the Iron Horse office layout, the dimensions just worked with the design.  I can not understand why Lionel does not make 042 FasTrack.  Well maybe in the future they will, sense they messed up the 031 engineering.

Now about these CC FasTrack 072 switches you are going want to sell me!  Your going to need Ross switches to go with your GG, I am sure.

PCRR/Dave

Dave,i have the legacy shay {meadow river lumber} that i bought last year & i just ran it through my fast track switches on my 036 loop,pulling 2 West Virginia coal cars & the shay went through with no problems,hope this helps.

Gerold,

    Thank you buddy very much it does help a lot, if the Legacy Shay runs on 036 FasTrack and the Switches accommodate it, this is really good news.  Maybe the 036 FasTrack is just big enough to accommodate the Legacy Shay with rolling stock.  Have you run the Legacy Shay very much or is this a one time event?

PCRR/Dave

My Shay had the problems with the coupler which I solved quite easily: I'm satsified there.  But it does not like to run smoothly through  O-36 curves when the driveshaft is on the inside of the curve: the telescoping joint on the driveshaft to the rear wheels binds up as it tries to shorten in the curve and the loco shudders and jerks a lot.  Not pretty.  On O-42 or greater it runs great.    

Dave,i just run my trains whenever i am in the mood ,i have about a dozen engines so i just rotate them every so often,but with the shay,when i first saw it in the catalog,i thought it was ugly,then last summer me & my wife went to West Virginia to the Cass railroad to ride on the train with one of the shays as the engine,then when we came back home i saw it at a great price on line,i am not sure what store it was from ,but it was for about $535.00,so i ordered it ,& when i got it i really liked it a lot,now it is one of my favorite engines,also my wife is originally from West Virginia so now she likes it also.

Lee,

   Thanks for the actual on the inside 036 bend, what kind of track are you running Lee?

Gerald,

   Thanks much for the info, please try to come up with the name of the business where you bought your Legacy Shay for me, that is one heck of a price!

PCRR/Dave

When I first had the Shay and encountered the problem I had Fastrack.  Now I have Atlas.  Makes no difference - and my loco does run,  but on either at diameter = 36 inches, it shudders noticeably.  I doubt this is good for it and don't run it.  When I run it on 42 I have no problems, but I can't fit 42 on the loop I want to run the Shay on, so it stays on the shelf most of the time.  A shame, because it is a great loco to watch run, with all the mechanical action it has. 

I run my Legacy Shay on 031 curves now and pull as many cars as I want without a problem. The bracket I got from a member here from the K-Line Shay once mounted cured all the Shay's problems with curves see the thread where I posted pics of the installation. I did have to send it in for a smoke unit redo of course like most Legacy engines, but now it's a sweet little engine.

With all the rather delicate gearing on the various Shays, Heislers, and Climax locomotives, I am not willing to tax their durability by operating them on tighter than recommended curves.  If the manufacturer recommends O42, then O42 or wider is probably best to go with.

That's one of the reasons I'm making a rather hefty investment in O42 GarGraves to change over my entire layout (which admittedly is nowhere near as large as some here).

LOL Allan, Lionel recommends 031 curves for the Shay, just look at their catalog lmao!

To the original poster, if you like the Shay, (love mine) get it and find someone that has the K-line Shay and get one of their brackets. It runs on 031 with absolutely no problems once the bracket is installed as K-Line designed it to. I tried to get the bracket made in plastic but couldn't find someone with a 3D printer that would step up and make it if I supplied the bracket.

Yeah, I know what the Lionel catalog says, but I've operated mine on O36 and just don't feel comfortable that it will continue, over time, to run well on that tight a curve.  I figure it's a lot "safer" going with the widest diameter I can manage on my modest-size layout.

I also have the K-Line Shay with the adapter bracket, but even then would rather have the O42 curves.

And, of course, the two MTH Climax locomotives I bought recently are both listed for O42.

Not sure what the recommended minimum is for my Lionel Heisler.  Will have to check on that one, but I'm pretty sure O42 will serve well there, too.

Gentlemen,

   Now we are starting to get some place, if anyone happens to have an original K-line adapter, please let me know, I would like to make the investment into a Legacy Shay, however I want to adapt the bracket like Va Golfer (Paul) did for his Shay. Allan has probably gone the safest engineering way for the Shay to operate, and some day I will probably go with the 048 FasTrack, however I want to add the K-line adapter also. 

PCRR/Dave

Atlas O on Vinylbed.

Best looking track.

Problem solved.

A bit more money, but the best solution for good looking track with so many choices of radii.

Scrapiron,

   No way am I giving up the FasTrack Command Control switches because a company made a mistake with putting the correct bracket on one engine, especially with all my Tin Plate trains running as perfectly as they do on FasTrack.  If you can find the original K-line SS switches, use them with your Atlas track they work like a million bucks, and they are low voltage, ofcourse Lionel discontinued making them when the got the K-line company.

PCRR/Dave

Dave, I have the Pa Power & Light Lionel Legacy shay and love it.  I currently run it w/ 3 cars on 0-42 & 0-54 real-trax curve with out problems.  I would prefer to be able to run it on my 0-36 or 0-31 curve.

You should know that the PP&L shay does NOT look as depicted in the Lionel catalog or website... It's better looking!

Lionel changed the the paint & graphics to look more like the the actual PP&L shay that was operated in NE PA (Lake Hauto area). http://www.shaylocomotives.com...lima3354/sn-3106.htm

At the time, not knowing the Lionel as delivered look and not finding any Lionel PP&L customer images posted online, I still took a chance and ordered during last year's Charles Ro sale.  I don't understand why Lionel at least does not update the image on their website to show the updated scheme.  The loco looks, sounds and runs great and I'm very happy.  A very good photo of a modeled PP&L Shay that is close to the way the Lionel PP&L version looks is Bachmann's version.  Though, the Lionel version does not have the painted window frames.

Dave,i have good news,then bad news,good news is i got my shay from legacy station,paid $539.00 plus $13.00 shipping,bad news is i started running it this morning to see if i had any problems with the drive shaft being on the inside of the curve as Lee Willis mentioned it went through the fast track switches ok the first time,but the second time the shay went through the switch it caught the corner of a plastic water tower & came to a complete stop, it wasn't going fast at all,i attempted to get the engine going again & the cab light started blinking, i hit the reset button & attempted to get the engine going again & it would not move in either direction,the owners manual says that the main drive motor is stalled,the smoke unit works fine,all other functions work also,it just won't move either forward or reverse,i have no clue as what i should do next,can anyone advise me as to what i need to do next,i have very limited knowledge,but i am willing to try if it isn't to difficult to do.   Thanks in advance.

Gerold,

   I sure did not want to get you into something like this, and I do not know how to tell you to fix the problem,  maybe Allan, Rick or Gunrunner john can help however.

Keystone,

   Do me a big favor and post some pictures of your PP&L Legacy Shay will ya, so I can see the as delivered PP&L Shay.

PCRR/Dave

Dave, I'll see if I can post a photo or two tonight.

When it got stuck the onboard diagnostics may have thought there was an issue with the electronics with the load on the stalled motor.

Leave it powered down for a few minutes, that may reset the diagnostics. If not, something may be bound up in the complex drive linkage continuing to load the motor and throw the code.

I would try gently turning the wheels/ drive mechanism to make sure its free.

You can also try "reprogramming the locomotive to restore features" near the back of the owners manual.

Typically once the issue causing a legacy diagnostics to flash the cab light is resolved, it should reset on its own.

Rick O,

   Thank you very much for helping Gerold, I appreciate it very much.

Keystone,

    I will keep an eye out for your pictures of the PP&L Legacy Shay in this thread, thanks a bunch.

PCRR/Dave

RICKO,i did leave it with the power off for quite awhile, but then when i powered back up again it still would not move either way & the cab light still blinks steady,i will try your other suggestion & give it a good look to see if i can spot something else that may be causing the problem,i will be back shortly.

You'll probably have to take the shell off and rotate the motor to see where it's binding.  My guess is it's a real mechanical jam.

Okay received an email from the poster looking for a place to purchase the bracket. As I had to inform him, I called every known dealer/repairman that handles K-Line or handled K-Line in the past and couldn’t find one to purchase. As a MTH ASC Tech I have quite a wide network for parts and the bracket is basically unattainable. I received 2 of the brackets from Forum member who didn't need them as he ran 072 and higher only.

In the prior thread I posted that I have a bracket as I only installed one on the rear(K-Line supplied 2 for front and rear) and to see if anyone that has the means/access to a 3D printer to reproduce it. I believe a hard plastic copy would work, especially as one doesn't run but a few cars behind these, plastic should handle more cars then what we would be coupling up to it. Once again if anyone has the way to reproduce the bracket hit my email and I will send it to have it done. If the cost is reasonable I am even willing to pick it up. If no one can do that then I will send my last bracket to the original poster of this thread, at least he will be able to run his on 031.

Va Golfer,

   Paul I really appreciate it and will wait to see what developes, thanks much for doing this for me.  Knowing this I will now need to order a PP&L Legacy Shay some time this month or next.

PCRR/Dave