Legacy - TMCC Mode or Cab1 Mode for TMCC engines

TMCC Mode.

What is the difference in the two modes.  I tried both with a newly converted engine with an ERR board and I seemed to have some low speed problems in TMCC mode that got better in Cab1.  Don't understand the difference.

Bill

Cab1 sends out relative speed steps.  TMCC sends out absolute speed steps.

The R100 mode was added for ERR if you go into the menu under info for that engine.

What is the R100 difference?

R100 is for ERR boards. They have the ability to have 100 speed steps. Standard TMCC has 32 speed steps. 

Nick

Larry,

I don't want to hi-jack your thread, I'm learning how to use the Cab-2 also.  Especially with TMCC since I own several of those locomotives.

Did you load the 'generic xxxx' module?  I did.  Without it, I didn't get any of the TMCC icons shown in the owner's manual. 

What Nick Says. In addition to ERR add TAS and Digital Dynamics to the list. Basically any engine that does not have Lionel modular boards (DCDR) use Cab1 mode. Engines that do have Lionel modular boards (DCDR, DCDS) like K-Line use TMCC mode.

Pete

That's good info, I didn't know that.  Thanks, makes a difference in one of my locomotives.

what we need is a file of pictures of the cab 2 in it's various modes.

when you push the info button a bunch of tabs show on the screen.  when you turn the red knob you get to view each tab. one will be: cab1, tmcc, and legacy.  you push the button under the screen for what you want.

the generic module just make it easier.

What about K-Line with Cruise?  This description isn't very clear to me. I think it is backward.   Basically ACDR and DCDR are the boards with no cruise and just 32 speed steps correct?  TAS/ERR back EMF, DCDS boards all have extra speed steps.  DCDS runs a very large gamut of boards.  Modular is also a misnomer.  TAS is a single composite mother board with the motor driver section built into the mother board but does take modular boards (R2LC and RS boards).  All the AC and DC xx boards are stand alone that plug into the mother board via a wire harness vice pins.

I guess the real difference is whether the Motor driver has more than 32 speed step capability no?  Any of the cruise boards usually have more, either 100 Lionel based or higher for K-Line cruise.  Plus you have to factor in that these cruise boards have selectable speed steps.  So you need to match the motor drive program to the Legacy selection, no?  .G

K-Line with cruise has neither a DCDR nor DCDS so Cab1 for this.

Pete

For a TAS locomotive, what would I need: Cab 1 or TMCC?

Pete DCDS is a cruise board, so I still think some of your original statement is not correct.  Plus your original statement said use TMCC for K-line, now your saying use CAB-1?

So I go back to my statement about 32 step only versus more than 32 speed steps as the criteria, and not get too hung up on type descriptions.  G

G, If it has a DCDR or a DCDS then TMCC should work. If it doesn't have one of those two boards then best stick with Cab1. AFAIK only Lionel uses a DCDS board. I use TMCC mode with all of my Odyssey engines, no problem.

Put it another way, Cab1 will work with all engines including Legacy and 3rd party products. TMCC should work in all Lionel engines, maybe not with 3rd party stuff.

Pete

I use R100 for K-Line cruise, and I use 128 speed steps.  R100 is basically CAB1 with some changes in the Legacy display like the throttle graph and the keypad graphics.  I've never needed to get to max speed on any K-Line locomotive that taxed the first 100 speed steps.

LCRU equipped engines have absolute speed steps. Read the code in the Command Base manual.

I have found that using R100 on my 2002-2005 era F units and other engines seem to smoothes out performance. This does not apply to all TMMC engines. 

So we seem all over the map here.

So we have TMCC, CAB1, R100 Modes.  TMCC is absolute 32 step, Cab1 is relative XX Steps? R100 is relative??  100 Step.

So where are we, I know lionel must have over 20 different DCDS Code boards and such, so what are the factors or is it specific board based?  G 

CAB1 is unlimited steps, it's relative to wherever you are from the previous step.  R100 mode is really just CAB1 with some changes to how the Legacy display works, throttle graph, keypad icons, etc.  TMCC is 32 step with positive control, not relative.  Legacy is 200 step mode and Legacy 9-bit code transmission.

I do it this way:  any AC motored TMCC engine uses Cab-1 mode,  DC motors with cruise use TMCC mode, and obviously Legacy engines use Legacy mode.  There may be an exception here and there sometimes.  Rich

What is positive control?  I thought TMCC was absolute, which is what original was correct?  G

Actually, CAB1 and R100 mode are not "positive" control, but rather relative steps from whatever the locomotive is currently doing.   TMCC and Legacy are positive speed steps, if the graph says step 5, that's the speed the locomotive is being commanded to go.

I recently converted a post war 736 with an AC commander and Railsound board (challenging first conversion).  I tried it in both Cab1 and TMCC with both 32 and 100 steps.  It worked best in Cab1 mode with 32 steps.  This is a single pullmore engine with poor low speed performance.  In 100 step mode it was very jerky at the low steps before it reached its minimum voltage threshold.  Much smoother at 32 steps as voltage rises faster.  I don't think this board supports setting a stall speed.  Works well overall though.  Lots of lessons learned from the first conversion.

Bill

Since that board uses the standard R4LC-C08 board, I can't imagine why it wouldn't support stall, and the ones I've installed supported stall settings.

John

Tried stall on the 736 and it is supported.  Big improvement.  thanks

Bill

That will probably make TMCC mode work much better.

 This from the Legacy 1.5 manual.  Still clear as mudd

CAB 1 MODE

+or - Relative commands

Lionel Power Masters

Lionel TPC’s

Engine or Track settings

Electric RR or EOB speed control

TMCC MODE

32 absolute speed commands

Lionel Locomotives & Accessories

Electric RR or EOB speed control

REL 100 MODE

100 Relative speed commands

Electric RR or EOB speed control

Lionel OEM’s (with Electric RR cruise)

LEGACY MODE

200 absolute speeds

Lionel LEGACY engines

Lionel LEGACY accessories

Well, absolute speed commands are just that, absolute.  If you see a 16 in the speed setting for TMCC or Legacy mode, a given engine will have the same speed command and, given the same environment, should run at the same speed. 

Relative commands are just an increment or decrement to the current speed step that the engine is running at.  There is no sense of an absolute speed setting.

Try this and you'll see the difference.

For TMCC or Legacy settings in the remote, with a compatible locomotive, run the speed up to a mid-range value.  As the engine is running, turn off the power.  Turn the power back on and just move the throttle one step.  The engine will take off at the set speed again.

Now, using the CAB1 or R100 modes, do the same test.  When you turn the power back on and go one click on the throttle, the engine will be at dead slow, as it's taking one speed step relative to the current setting, which is zero.

Always an education, John.  Thanks.  I just learned something else about this hobby.  Brings up a question in my mind.  Do you think Legacy has the technology to control scale speeds as I read DCS can?

How do you get to R100?  When I go to INFO for an engine I can select Cab1, TMCC, or Legacy.  Is the R100 option associated with a specific version of Legacy?

Thanks for any help.

EDIT:

THANKS JOHN, GUESS I BETTER GET OFF MY B.. , AND DO THE UPGRADE.

Don, you have to have a later version of the Legacy firmware to get R100.  I don't remember for sure, but it was in the 1.4 timeframe that it was added, maybe in 1.3.

Ron, while they certainly have the technology, believe it or not, MTH patented the idea of scale speeds, so Lionel just uses numbers.

MartyE pretty much nailed it right off the bat. I believe the CAB2 will send relative commands via the velocity knob, and absolutes mapped to the RR speeds menu when set up for TMCC control.

On another note, absolute speeds (via CAB2 RR Speeds in TMCC mode) will not trigger DynaChuff (for RS4 or 5), but the knob will. This is easier to hear with RS4.

You guys trying to figure out EOB and ERRCO cruise need to remember that these systems have up to 3 different operating modes when used in the command environment. I'd have to start unpacking more engines but from what I remember some modes supported response to absolute speeds and some didn't. I used to run EOB in CAB1 control and ERRCO in R100.

John,  I do understand the difference between absolute and relative speed steps.  It is the clarification of what is best for what system and what reason.  Pete tried to make it sound like motor driver specific, yet Lionel clearly states several modes for the same hardware.  So why one over the other (besides relative versus absolute).  What I alluded too, which Norm seems to support is that even the motor Drive boards have different modes available so that may impact performance.

I guess it would be nice to have Lionel come out with a more technical description of the pros and cons of the modes and how to apply them to the various Lionel products.  G

I see where you're going George, but some of these systems like the TAS and K-Line cruise stuff, are not even Lionel equipment.  As far as the ERR stuff, I think they've pretty much stated that R100 mode is the right choice for the 100 step mode.  Personally, I use R100 for TAS EOB and K-Line cruise.  I set the K-Line for 128 step mode.

One thing that is misleading in Norm's comment.  The big red knob sends absolute TMCC or Legacy steps if you're in either Legacy or TMCC mode for that locomotive.  The RR speed step control is only available in Legacy mode.

Right Norm, for some reason it didn't come up when I tried it, so I just tried it again and it indeed did switch to the speed screen.  I never saw that as big deal myself for TMCC, I do use it for Legacy stuff.

My comment about the throttle knob still applies, you get absolute speed steps with the knob if you're in TMCC or Legacy operating modes.

Well the R2LC is and that is translating the Commands and sending PWM.  Of course the Driver is different though very similar in design.

So the unlimited relative step of a CAB-1 mode can cause performance issues that 100 relative steps of the R100 doesn't?  G

Actually, R100 mode is just CAB1 mode with some display goodies on the CAB2.  The commands going out to the locomotive are exactly the same.  If you keep cranking the knob after the R100 throttle graph gets to the top, it keeps sending relative speed increase commands, just like CAB1 mode would.

I hear what your saying but why unless there is a performance difference too.  It also is the only mode that has this listed:  Lionel OEM’s (with Electric RR cruise)  G