Lionel 6-11909 Warhorse N&W J Steam Locomotive Freight Set

The switch on the back of the cab should be your program switch, the one on the tender is the sounds switch, does it work for you now???

Marty

No. It accelerates to full speed as soon as track power is turned on.

Ken

Ken;

I have the Santa Fe Warhorse which, if I remember correctly, came out at the same time. From your description, it appears that the engines are set up the same. Here are a few pages from the manual which may help. You may have to rotate them. 

Ahhh for the days when Santa just had to bring batteries for things to work on Christmas Day   

Merry Christmas!!!

Switch in the tender bottom is for signal and rail sounds. The switch for run/program is under the engine or inside the cab, can't remember where. I do have the J and SF warhorse sets. 

Try programming your J with an engine number. If you have it in program mode, you will know as the whistle will sound and the engine will not move. It is not labeled with a run/program marking.

If it takes off in either mode, check that the engine plastic screws are incased with a plastic washer as the shell is your antenna from the engine frame. Use a continuity meter to check that. If it is touching, it is grounding out the TMCC signal.

Keep us posted.

It does not appear that shell is shorting to the frame, I checked it with a multi-meter. But it still jumps to full speed regardless of the switch position.  Time to take the shell off?

ken

If it is taking off it means there is 18 volts or there abouts in the track. However the electronics in the engine is not seeing the TMCC signal on either or both of the neutral or outside rails. The TMCC signal is generated by the command base. So starting there make sure the single wire emanating from the command base is one, attached securely to the command base and two is the same wire connected securely to the track (outside rails). That being checked, do you have another TMCC or Legacy locomotive?  If you do remove the faulty locomotive and place the new locomotive on the track. If that locomotive works normally, then it is time to analyze the original locomotive. 

Now I believe that set had a Steam locomotive. Now I am not sure if one or both handrails that run along the Boiler are the receive antenna for the electronics of the locomotive. These handrail(s) need to be isolated from the case of the locomotive. Visually inspect the standoffs that hold the handrail away from the boiler. If you observe that they are insulated correctly. Then it is time to look deeper. You stated that all the switches IE the CMD/RUN switch is correctly positioned. Further to that if the electronics aren't seeing the TMCC signal, it will not take reprogramming so that is useless to attempt at this point

Now I noticed that one of the posters stated to check for continuity or more importantly the lack of continuity. I am drawing a blank as it has been awhile since I trouble shot an issue such as this and not having a circuit drawing in front of me is making my next statement circumspect. I am somewhat sure that this may show resistance as there would be an electrical path from the handrail through the electronics and back to ground or as previously stated the case or actually any outside metal part. Assuming this is true, you will be measuring the apparent resistance of the electronics. I think I will stop at this point as I would like to hear what you have found by following these suggested guidelines returning your answers will tell me whether we need to access the inside of the locomotive and I can't remember you saying how comfortable you are taking this next step. 

Good luck and I will look forward to hearing back from you. 

Further to my post, I should have looked at who posted the instructions regarding the checking of continuity. Now that I know it is Ted Bertiger I will defer to him as Ted has been on this forum for along time and has impressed me with his knowledge. 

Thanks for all of the help so far but I still haven't found the problem.

Jim,

Yes, my TMCC and Legacy loco's run fine.  It doesn't matter which position the CMD/RUN switch is in, the loco still reacts the same:  It jumps to full speed as soon as power is applied to the track. 

It is a steam loco and the metal shell acts as the antenna.  The point of checking the resistance was to be sure that the shell is not touching the frame and grounding the antenna.  I'm comfortable taking the loco apart, I just don't know what I'm looking for.

Thanks,

Ken

Ken,

Thanks for the information. And now maybe you can educate me. Since you have the engine and I wanted the set very badly, I never pulled the trigger to buy it. And further I have a number of K-line locomotives and they are the ones I have investigated as they seem to have been the ones that I seem to have trouble with. My Lionel engines are of a bigger nature IE an articulated Y or the Lionel M-1. Now there may have been a philosophy change for Lionel and here I will say I have great confidence in Ted but I have not noticed, not that I have looked hard at my Lionel locomotives but I am circumspect that the boiler is electrically isolated from the "frame". If you know for sure that plastic screws are used to attach the boiler to the frame, then I will put my tail between my legs and sulk away quietly. Can you confirm to me the use of plastic screws?

Jim,

Not plastic screws but plastic sleeves and washers.  Attached is the parts diagram, you can see the insulating sleeves and washers on the third sheet.

Ken

Ken,

Well bust a gut. Dang I hate being wrong. I think it is time to analyze my Lionel engines alittle more closely. 

I am sulking away and paying homage to Ted. 

That locomotive is one of only a few that used the whole boiler shell for the antenna, most indeed do use the handrails. 

GRJ, Boy I needed that response. My pride may be restored after a little more sulking. See you on FB. 

I put the first one of those I worked on together without all the insulators, it came in pieces for me to assemble.  After I discovered it used the shell as the antenna, I rounded up all the extra bits I needed to make it work.

Ken

Late seeing your request. I have that set somewhere around here . It's new so I know all the stuff that's suppose to be in the box is there.

Do you still need any information out of the manual?

If so, I'll find it and get it for you.

Larry

Larry,

Thanks but I was able to download the manual.  Searched on "warhorse" instead of any product numbers, go figure!

Ken

I haven't seen any posts that are really helping you. What is the status of the engine?

Status is unchanged.  I guess I'll try taking the shell off and see if anything looks unusual.

Ken

Been away for 2 days and just checking up here and there.

This engine with a very few used the entire shell as an antenna instead of using the handrails. It is 3 screws to the shell off, just be careful not to lose the plastic pieces.

I would try running the engine with the shell off and leave the wire from the antenna hanging in the air. It will receive the TMCC signal still. Something is grounding out the signal or could be just the board?

I have this set from almost 20 years ago and it runs like it came out of the box!

Ted, one. Of the test that I do not think we told Ken to do was the hand over the locomotive before he takes the boiler off. Do you think this test would be beneficial ficial?

I am not sure if Ken has started the disassembly yet. I did caution him taking the boiler off as that antennae jumper appears to be relatively short. I also instructed him to, as long as he has the boiler off, reset the connectors and Sockets and also the daughter boards to insure they have no corrosion and to make sure they are completely connected. 

Thanks Ted

Shell off, all connectors reseated, antenna hanging in the air ... still jumping to full speed when power is applied to the track.  

Ken

Alright let me recapture my thoughts. I have been at a party. But don't worry I do not consume alcohol.

What we have is  a TMCC setup with a Control Base connected to the track neutral by the single wire. You also have a transformer putting out a fixed voltage of 18 volts. Now we have an locomotive that is apparently sensing no TMCC signal. Hence the locomotive believes that it is to run in conventional mode. Having 18 volts on the track, it takes off like a rocket. I think I got it again. 

OK, we probably should have done this before you took the boiler off. But I forgot about this test. By placing your hand over the antenna jumper and applying voltage to the track does it still take of like a rocket?  The theory behind this test is essential the same as when your TV had rabbit ears by touching the rabbit ears the signal would be improved and the picture would come in better. That's why as a kid we would invite Uncle Ed over and it was his job to stand all-night holding the antenna. I digress. Anyway try to see if the the TMCC signal is increased enough so that the antenna receives a signal. Failing this test you should remove the daughter board that the antenna jumper is attached to. Are any scorch marks observed especially around any of the components? If yes we just passed into the expensive area of the testing. I would suggest the board is bad and needs to replaced.

Do I also remember you saying this is your only TMCC locomotive?  No, I remember you saying that all your other TMCC locomotives were working on this layout.  Right?  The next thing I can suggest is to do a board exchange. Now when doing this process I should warn you to carefully mark the board from the donor locomotive and write down the key. Like if you have different color felt tip pens Mar each board with a different color and then write down the color and if this color denoted the donor locomotive's board and do the same for the crippled locomotive. Now you are free to exchange the receiver board that the antenna is connected to. Since I had previously suggested to remove the daughter boards and reseat them this should be an easy exercise for you. Once you have exchanged the boards take each locomotive to the lay out and hopefully you should notice that the symptoms followed to the donor locomotive and now the crippled locomotive should be working as we would expect a TMCC locomotive to work. If you do not find this result, I will need to sleep on it. Oh yes I suggest immediately after this test you transfer the boards back to the original locomotives. Good Luck with this process. See you tomorrow. 

Assuming that I find that the LCRU is bad, where and how do I get a replacement?

Thanks,

Ken

If the LCRU is really bad, you can still buy them.  OTOH, I'd consider swapping it for an ERR AC Commander.  It's a much better unit, and will give you far better performance, especially low speed performance, than the LCRU.

I was hoping you would say that! 

Other than swapping the LCRU with a known good one, is there any other way to determine if it is the LCRU?  I don't really like the idea of taking a working loco apart, I usually end up breaking something that once worked!

Well, if you have the shell off and a temporary antenna connected, it should recognize the TMCC signal.  Since the LCRU is an "all in one" board, it kinda' either works or doesn't work. 

I have a dumb question.  Forgetting about TMCC, if you run it with no command base and just transformer control, can you get it to reverse directions with the direction button on the transformer?  Your symptoms suggest either no TMCC signal or shorted output triac motor drivers.

Unfortunately I have a "brick" transformer.  But I do run the Legacy through a TPC.  If I can figure out how to run conventional through it, will that suffice?

Well, the issue here is in order to run the TPC, you need the command base powered.  That defeats the idea of this test.

Try this.  Connect the brick directly to the track without the command base in the picture.  Using the plug or power switch, briefly power it up, then interrupt power momentarily like you were using the direction button on a standard transformer.  When you apply power the second time, does the locomotive stay in neutral or take off in the same direction as the first power up.  If the reverse function is working on the LCRU, you should be able to control the direction F-N-R-N... using power interruptions.

I suggest just holding the locomotive so it can't take off for this test.

If the locomotive always tries to go in one direction full speed, I suspect the motor drivers, if it is able to cycle through directions, I suspect the TMCC receiver.

I Bow to the Great GRJ.  And I agree with his comment about using Electric Railroad equipment. 

More of a curiosity question, if the LCRU is not detecting the command signal shouldn't it cycle if I pulse the track voltage even with the power going through the Legacy.

I've seen them detect enough of the signal to affect operation, but not enough to run in command.  The 100% sure test it to simply remove the command base from the picture.

Interesting.  OK - it will take a bit for me to try this since the power system is currently behind the Christmas Tree!

At this point from you have done, I would conclude that the LCRU is not seeing a TMCC signal. I would do what GRJ has said and run it conventionally. Still think you might have to saw out the board.

Where do you live as I have 2 very reputable authorized Lionel repair places that I know personally?

Northern Jersey - Morris County.

JLM Trains in Freehold Borough, Roundhouse Repairs in Jackson and another friend in Philadelphia. All 3 are highly recommended.

Also, Gunrunnerjohn does repair work.

@krybka - I just came across this old Post and I know someone who's recently acquired the same engine and is experiencing the same problem you had (ie. engine takes off 100 mph as soon as power applied).  So my question is - Did you ever get the engine to work correctly and, if so, what was causing the problem?