Lionel 6-18563 GP-9 Poor puller

If I remember, that is the engine with a single Pullmor motor.  Those single Pullmor engines are not very good pullers.

Hi Andy, 

I've experienced the same issues with many of the TMCC GP-9 locomotives from that time period. The lack of traction tires on these combined with the relatively light weight made them really struggle to pull much of anything. That combined with the rolling friction of typical postwar freight cars vs. the needle point axles of newer cars means that it will pull less. 

I've heard you can swap the power trucks out for a set with traction tires, but not sure which parts and the cost of such a proposition. I wish I had a better solution, but wanted you to know that you are not alone with the disappointment of having to run short trains with these. 

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

If I remember, that is the engine with a single Pullmor motor.  Those single Pullmor engines are not very good pullers.

Notch 6 posted:

Hi Andy, 

I've experienced the same issues with many of the TMCC GP-9 locomotives from that time period. The lack of traction tires on these combined with the relatively light weight made them really struggle to pull much of anything. That combined with the rolling friction of typical postwar freight cars vs. the needle point axles of newer cars means that it will pull less. 

I've heard you can swap the power trucks out for a set with traction tires, but not sure which parts and the cost of such a proposition. I wish I had a better solution, but wanted you to know that you are not alone with the disappointment of having to run short trains with these. 

Marty--Yes, single Pullmor engine.   Should be a single "pull-less" engine. haha  At least it looks good and it is a smooth runner.

Notch....Yeah those PW freights are hard to pull...I have been pulling with my 1949 675 steam that pulls the consist of 11 cars easily.  I have been thinking of getting some newer freight cars, so maybe that will bump the string of cars slightly.

I thought about adding traction tires...was hoping I could find the right size tire and not have to swap power trucks, but depending on cost might be the way to go.  It does seem to pull a little better if I turn it around and the power trucks are closer to the freight cars...

Well Notch is right about older PW cars (I never really considered that until this wouldn't pull)...I have a few newer cars and a few free rolling PW cars...I have those behind it and it doesn't struggle near as much...now I am up to 7 freight cars with the engine face long end forward.

This is my first TMCC/Legacy engine...I am coming from years of conventional HO and haven't done that in years either...to my first O setup.  So far I am loving it...I have already gone from.."I will just do PW conventional (1st month), to buying Legacy 990  2nd months.   To pre-ordering from Lionels catalog.  The more I learn the more I spend!  HA

There is also a wire connector near the rear of the body...nothing about it in the manual.  Anyone know what this is for?  

I have a MPC RS-3 that had a single can motor drive. It could barely get out of its own way with anything more than a few cars. I was able to put a second powered truck in it and it pulls great now. I'm not familiar with legacy so I don't know if this would be a solution.

Maybe try adding lead weights like what are used to balance automobile wheels. I've also used thick pieces of cast or fishing "splitshot".

Rich

My single motor PW 2245 F3 can pull 4 2500 pass cars without a sweat. On Lionel tin track.  On MTH train set track it spins.  I think the Atlas track is the issue.  Have you run thw engine on classic tinplated track.

That connection could have been used to connect it to another engine.  The new Legacy Geeps are fantastic.  What you have is history.  I had one back in the day.  Be careful buying any of the older used engines.

roll_the_dice posted:

There is also a wire connector near the rear of the body...nothing about it in the manual.  Anyone know what this is for?  

Whatever that is, it didn't come from the factory that way.

Also note that Lionel offered the GP-9 fuel tank and pilots made of die-cast metal to improve weight/traction.

TRW

I had Frank Timco install wheels that’s got traction tires and it pulls just fine. 

Alan

Grampstrains posted:

RSJB18 posted:

I have a MPC RS-3 that had a single can motor drive. It could barely get out of its own way with anything more than a few cars. I was able to put a second powered truck in it and it pulls great now. I'm not familiar with legacy so I don't know if this would be a solution.

That is strange.  MPC didn't make the RS-3.

OOPS- my bad- its a modern era loco. 6-28832. Been buying a several MPC era locos lately, got myself all mixed up.

Should have caught myself at can motor.

Lionel did two of these, one is numbered 2380 and the other 2383. I have them both and lash them together to run on our club layout, FCTT, pulling 15 to 20 scale freight cars with not much problem. Those old PW cars are like pulling bricks around the layout unless you clean and lube the wheels. Even then, they are tough with plenty of drag. The horn on those locos still sounds great and is unique compared to the recent offerings where I see constant reuse of the same sound sets. Scale sized, but short on detail, I've had mine since the first days of TMCC and still running great.

Like its been mentioned, the PW cars with flat wheels are a load!  I have removed the power truck and sent to Frank Timko; he machines the wheels for pair of traction tires; the combo of magnetraction and TT really allows it to pull a load of cars.  Lionel has gone to that motor truck on their more recent Pullmor geeps; Frank is a wizard and very reasonable.  I have also added the die cast pilots and die cast fuel tank from Lionel; have four GP's I have modified this way and its a kick to pull 12-15 MODERN day cars.  Good luck; Falcon70

Smoke Stack Lightnin posted:

Maybe try adding lead weights like what are used to balance automobile wheels. I've also used thick pieces of cast or fishing "splitshot".

Rich

Good Idea...I have plenty of that in my tackle box ...somewhere! 

Dominic Mazoch posted:

My single motor PW 2245 F3 can pull 4 2500 pass cars without a sweat. On Lionel tin track.  On MTH train set track it spins.  I think the Atlas track is the issue.  Have you run thw engine on classic tinplated track.

I don't have any classic tinplate track...I just started into O and the only track I have is Atlas.

PaperTRW posted:

Whatever that is, it didn't come from the factory that way.

Also note that Lionel offered the GP-9 fuel tank and pilots made of die-cast metal to improve weight/traction.

TRW

Good idea also...that will add some weight for sure.  I was going to add the auto couplers...will that add any weight?

ajzend posted:

I had Frank Timco install wheels that’s got traction tires and it pulls just fine. 

Alan

Falcon70 posted:

Like its been mentioned, the PW cars with flat wheels are a load!  I have removed the power truck and sent to Frank Timko; he machines the wheels for pair of traction tires; the combo of magnetraction and TT really allows it to pull a load of cars.  Lionel has gone to that motor truck on their more recent Pullmor geeps; Frank is a wizard and very reasonable.  I have also added the die cast pilots and die cast fuel tank from Lionel; have four GP's I have modified this way and its a kick to pull 12-15 MODERN day cars.  Good luck; Falcon70

Interesting both of you mention Frank Timko...I googled after I read your posts and his website is no longer active and I read he is "slow"?  I wouldn't mind having the work done reasonably however.  Thanks for the suggestions!

 

 

NYC Z-MAN posted:

Lionel did two of these, one is numbered 2380 and the other 2383. I have them both and lash them together to run on our club layout, FCTT, pulling 15 to 20 scale freight cars with not much problem. Those old PW cars are like pulling bricks around the layout unless you clean and lube the wheels. Even then, they are tough with plenty of drag. The horn on those locos still sounds great and is unique compared to the recent offerings where I see constant reuse of the same sound sets. Scale sized, but short on detail, I've had mine since the first days of TMCC and still running great.

Short on detail is right...nice engine though. I really like the horn.  Before I bought it I saw a video of it running an the horn sold me.  Since I just started with Legacy I wanted something reasonably priced before I jump in to some of the high dollar equipment.  I may look for the 2383...as two would be a nice look!

Thanks for all the great responses and encouragement about this engine!  Any other suggestions about who could add traction tire trucks to the engine other than Timko? 

The other option is to order a TT/magnetraction truck from Lionel: 6308332740 or from a dealer who can pass a discount; surprised about Timko; news to me.  Falcon70.

Yes, the older TMCC geeps with the older pulmor motors are nice re-runs of post war diesels. I had the B&O engine and it ran smooth, sounded good, but did not have any pulling power. (The original #2338 Milwaukee Road black and orange GP9? 1955 version ran fantastic and pulled really great). Also, I had one of the FM Jersey Central PW collection Diesels and it was a poor puller....I simply sold them and said it’s time to go with the later legacy, with can motors and traction tire equipped engines. In 2008, the nice GP7’s, with Legacy we’re fantastic runners and even much better sounds.  Then came really neat SD70aces.....Wow, the three rail scale Legacy Control effect made a huge difference in how we run our trains. This is a great thread, sorry if some of the answers are not to pleasing to hear, but, you can see there are many alternatives. My thoughts are sell what you are not pleased with, go Legacy. Good luck and happy Railroading.

Falcon70 posted:

The other option is to order a TT/magnetraction truck from Lionel: 6308332740 or from a dealer who can pass a discount; surprised about Timko; news to me.  Falcon70.

Thanks...I will check out the part# when the lionel support site starts working again...I googled that part # and only info basically from Lionel support came up...We don't have any LHS here, so maybe when I hit Atlanta this coming week I will find it.  I was going to go to some LHS up there anyway.

leapinlarry posted:

Yes, the older TMCC geeps with the older pulmor motors are nice re-runs of post war diesels. I had the B&O engine and it ran smooth, sounded good, but did not have any pulling power. (The original #2338 Milwaukee Road black and orange GP9? 1955 version ran fantastic and pulled really great). Also, I had one of the FM Jersey Central PW collection Diesels and it was a poor puller....I simply sold them and said it’s time to go with the later legacy, with can motors and traction tire equipped engines. In 2008, the nice GP7’s, with Legacy we’re fantastic runners and even much better sounds.  Then came really neat SD70aces.....Wow, the three rail scale Legacy Control effect made a huge difference in how we run our trains. This is a great thread, sorry if some of the answers are not to pleasing to hear, but, you can see there are many alternatives. My thoughts are sell what you are not pleased with, go Legacy. Good luck and happy Railroading.

 

I will eventually go Legacy engines, but wanted to get my feet wet first with a cheaper TMCC before I dive in.  I may end up selling it, but I do like it and the price was right...so if I can get a power truck with TT, then I may do that to help.  I watch a lot of videos of engines...and all the bells and whistles of the Legacy engines are awesome...Just need a good "inexpensive" Legacy engine to start...but on the carpet layout, I am happy with everything I have bought so far. 

None of the answers bother me...that is why I asked.  My philosophy is if I don't like the answer, then I should have never asked the question...can only learn by asking questions.

Happy Railroading!

The most cost effective solution will be to go to the auto store any buy wheel weights with the adhesive backing.  Changing trucks, wheels and similar arrangements will work but by the time you are done, cost-wise, you could have simply bought a stronger locomotive.  This will only take a few minutes and will add tractive force. 

Ray Lombardo posted:

The most cost effective solution will be to go to the auto store any buy wheel weights with the adhesive backing.  Changing trucks, wheels and similar arrangements will work but by the time you are done, cost-wise, you could have simply bought a stronger locomotive.  This will only take a few minutes and will add tractive force. 

Thanks Ray--I really don't want to spend a ton of money on this engine.  It is like everything, if I upgrade it, not many would appreciate it if I ever go to sell it.  I will get some weights for sure.  Should I put them over the drive wheels or proportionately over the entire length of the cab where I have space inside?

I do think I want to add auto couplers though...will make life easier if I turn it into a switcher down the road.

I would mount them on the frame.  Lower is better for stability and more effective for traction. 

Nonsense.  Swap the couplers out the normal way.  Works great.  At one time I had every Lionel TMCC GP7/9 they made.  They were all great engines.  The one you bought is the first one they made.  I wouldn’t modify anything but the couplers.  It should pull just fine.  The problem is with the old cars you are tugging.  Too much drag.  If I were you I’d locate the 2383 and run them together.  Then get one of the later production models.  They are really nice.  Engine specific crewtalk, Railsounds 4, electrocouplers already and a better Pullmor engine.  The best one they made was the Rock Island, which was also the last one they made.  The Northern Pacific is a beauty also.  All my Geeps could pull down a house.  That said, they are more fun when there is more than one.  Cheers.

I am definitely going to upgrade the couplers...seems like a no brainer.  I may order the diecast fuel tank for some added weight as well.

Curiosity got the best of me with the wire connector hanging out of the rear rails...so I took it apart this morning and this is what I found.

1) A non battery in the battery compartment...I googled it and said it "replaced" a battery and never needed changing.  I am skeptical...replaced with a 9 volt for now.

This is the offending wire connector...3 female connector.

Running along the inside of the body shell

Connected to motor

A new board?...a/c and d/c written on it...so i assume whoever owned this before me made it run a/c or d/c?

I assume there is no harm in this wiring other than taking up space for weights?

Add the weight as close to the the power truck as you can. 

This is a great thread if I do say so myself!  I have learned a lot...I just ordered the Lionel #6-22919 electro-coupler kit...found 3 New sets for a steal on ebay!  With 3 sets, looks like I need to upgrade some more GP-9's.

Roll the Dice,

These engines can be run either with TMCC or conventionally.  Installing a battery would keep the railsounds active when cycling the power to change direction.  It looks like someone installed a BCR to eliminate the need to periodically change the battery.  If you intend to run this engine only using TMCC the BCR can be removed.

I think a good chunk of your problem is the postwar cars and non magnetic track. I have a postwar GP7 and late 90s GP9 with the same motor setup. Each will pull 15+ modern freight cars with no issue on steel track. 

I don't own any postwar freight cars but I do own a set of 6 postwar 2500 series aluminium passenger cars and a 6 car modern equivalent aluminum passenger car set. The modern era cars are much easier to move, even after freshly lubricating the postwar car set. Postwar cars have a lot of drag.

I'm sure that it is mentioned above, but spinning drivers is an adhesion problem, not a power problem. A single Pullmor is indeed not going to pull your boat out of the water, but if it's spinning it has more power than you are able to use in that configuration. In RR terms, you have a "slippery" loco.

Add weight. When the spinning stops, it will then pull all the cars that it can under your conditions.  

D500 posted:

I'm sure that it is mentioned above, but spinning drivers is an adhesion problem, not a power problem. A single Pullmor is indeed not going to pull your boat out of the water, but if it's spinning it has more power than you are able to use in that configuration. In RR terms, you have a "slippery" loco.

Add weight. When the spinning stops, it will then pull all the cars that it can under your conditions.  

Also try modulating the throttle to cut down on wheel slip, like in real life.

roll_the_dice posted:

I am definitely going to upgrade the couplers...seems like a no brainer.  I may order the diecast fuel tank for some added weight as well.

Curiosity got the best of me with the wire connector hanging out of the rear rails...so I took it apart this morning and this is what I found.

1) A non battery in the battery compartment...I googled it and said it "replaced" a battery and never needed changing.  I am skeptical...replaced with a 9 volt for now.

This is the offending wire connector...3 female connector.

Running along the inside of the body shell

Connected to motor

A new board?...a/c and d/c written on it...so i assume whoever owned this before me made it run a/c or d/c?

I assume there is no harm in this wiring other than taking up space for weights?

When the BCR was used in Lionel there was an additional circuit needed with the BCR. I don’t know what it is but it may now affect using a regular battery. 

Older O gauge tin track definitely had more steel, thus magnetism.   Newer track seems more "tinny".  The older stuff is physically heavier, too.

Also, regarding the early TMCC GP-9's, at one point they did start using traction tires on them.  I'm 99% sure Lionel even offered them for separate sale from the parts department. (Of course, this is when they were still in Michigan.)

FWIW, I’ve had this loco new since 1997. Mine easily pulls a max of 10 modern cars. Of course this was on original Lionel tubular steel track.  I had the Train Station in Mountain Lakes do the electro coupler upgrade about a year after I got it. Plus it’s made in the USA. 

That wire looks to be used for MUing with another locomotive. 

SPSF posted:

That wire looks to be used for MUing with another locomotive. 

 

Not sure this is the set - but I know they made an odd GP B-unit in NYC.

roll_the_dice posted:

I am definitely going to upgrade the couplers...seems like a no brainer.  I may order the diecast fuel tank for some added weight as well.

Curiosity got the best of me with the wire connector hanging out of the rear rails...so I took it apart this morning and this is what I found.

1) A non battery in the battery compartment...I googled it and said it "replaced" a battery and never needed changing.  I am skeptical...replaced with a 9 volt for now.

This is the offending wire connector...3 female connector.

Running along the inside of the body shell

Connected to motor

A new board?...a/c and d/c written on it...so i assume whoever owned this before me made it run a/c or d/c?

I assume there is no harm in this wiring other than taking up space for weights?

You can remove that BCR system and get a modern replacement for the 9 volt from Henning's Trains item #10500

I would suspect that the charging board for the BCR is drawing some power from the motor. The connector is most likely for an external MTH Charger.

The battery provides power for the startup and shutdown sequences and prevents random sounds for small breaks track power.\

The BCR was a replacement modification to avoid checking batteries.

Forum member gunrunnerjohn designed the item sold by Hennings.

I concur with Romiller. Follow the wiring and remove this setup. Run it stock with the 9 volt or the new version of this designed for Lionel. It shouldn't be connected to the motor. That was just lazy.

There's two 6-11864 on eBay

Roving Sign posted:

SPSF posted:

That wire looks to be used for MUing with another locomotive. 

 

Not sure this is the set - but I know they made an odd GP B-unit in NYC.

The 6-18577 is non-powered - meh

romiller49 posted:

When the BCR was used in Lionel there was an additional circuit needed with the BCR. I don’t know what it is but it may now affect using a regular battery. 

I will have to open it up again, but the battery terminal is original with no modifications...just the small board up front was added along with the 3 wire connector hanging out the back.

For those that have this engine...can you open it up and snap a photo or 2 of the inside?  I want to make sure if I remove it, I don't desolder something I am not supposed to.  I am most concerned about how it is connected to the motor.

Moonman posted:

You can remove that BCR system and get a modern replacement for the 9 volt from Henning's Trains item #10500

I would suspect that the charging board for the BCR is drawing some power from the motor. The connector is most likely for an external MTH Charger.

The battery provides power for the startup and shutdown sequences and prevents random sounds for small breaks track power.\

The BCR was a replacement modification to avoid checking batteries.

Forum member gunrunnerjohn designed the item sold by Hennings.

I concur with Romiller. Follow the wiring and remove this setup. Run it stock with the 9 volt or the new version of this designed for Lionel. It shouldn't be connected to the motor. That was just lazy.

I don't think it is a charging board...according to the J&W website, it says just plug it in like a normal battery.  Right now I took the BRC out and have a regular alkaline 9v in it and it works fine.

I think the board is something else.  I will probably move the board as I don't know if it serves a purpose for me.