Lionel 6-38017 chugging sound intermediate

Ron-

 

The 2-6-0 uses a cam and switch arrangement in the locomotive to trigger the chuff sound. One of the driving axles on the locomotive has a special cam, which triggers the switch as the axle rotates. The switch basically sends an interrupt signal back to the railsounds board, which in turn triggers the chuff; the faster the axle rotates, the faster the chuffing sound.

 

Based on Lionel's exploded parts views for the locomotive and tender, the TMCC components are in the locomotive while the railsounds components are in the tender; The wiring schematics for the locomotive and tender also show how the electrical parts are arranged.. You should not need to disassemble the tender to troubleshoot the problem.

 

Before disassembling the locomotive, I would recommend going through a full TMCC reset to see if this clears the problem. It is very easy to perform a TMCC reset - first turn off track power and move the run/program switch on the underside of the locomotive to "program". Place the locomotive and tender back on the track and turn the power back on. Using your TMCC or Legacy remote, press "ENG", then enter a two-digit ID of your choosing using the number keypad, and then press "SET". The locomotive will respond by either flashing the headlight and/or blowing the whistle. Once the engine ID is set, the next step is to set the appropriate TMCC functions for your locomotive. To do this, press "AUX-1", then enter 74 using the number keypad; code 74 is used for most steam locomotives with a wireless drawbar. The locomotive may flash the headlight or sound its whistle again to confirm the function code is set. To finish turn off the power and move the run/program switch back to "RUN". Now your locomotive is ready to be addressed normally via whatever ID code you set for the unit.

 

If the reset did not restore the chuffing operation, the next step would be to disassemble the locomotive by removing the needed screws to release the boiler. With the boiler off, check to see that all modular boards and connectors are properly seated in the appropriate receptacles, then look for any loose or broken wires. Reseat the R2LC (TMCC receiver) circuit board, then test the locomotive with its shell off and the tender to see if the problem is solved. Don't worry if the problem is still there, but what we have done so far is ruled out the R2LC board and indirectly the Railsounds boards as the likely culprit (I would consider the Railsounds power or data boards to be faulty if you did not have any sounds at all).

 

At this point let's focus on the previously mentioned cam/switch assembly, which triggers the chuff sound. The cam is pressed onto the axle of the front set of driving wheels (closest to the pilot truck), and the switch should be mounted directly above the cam. Rotate the drivers to see if the cam contacts the long metal lever on the switch. If it does not, adjust the metal lever on the switch so that the cam engages it smoothly. Check also to see the cam and switch are aligned properly, and adjust if necessary; if the cam is sliding back and forth on the axle, try a dab of super glue to hold the cam in place on the axle (once it is properly aligned to trigger the switch). Retest as necessary to see if the normal chuff has been restored.

 

If you verified that the cam is triggering the switch as it should but the chuffing is still intermittent, I would look for any loose/broken/cold solder joints on the switch contacts. If you can, test the switch with an continuity meter to ensure the contacts are working normally. If the switch is determined to be defective, replace it with Cherry part #DG23-B1LA; Digi-Key, Mouser, and other electronic parts suppliers should have this switch in stock for a few dollars.

 

Another possibility is that there is a problem with the wireless drawbar between the locomotive and tender. Try cleaning the surfaces first to see if anything improves. If you have another locomotive and tender with a wireless drawbar, try switching the tenders to see if the problem is with the transmitter or receiver.

 

Unfortunately if the problem still persists after field troubleshooting, the only option left would be to bring it to a local authorized Lionel repair station, or send it to Lionel directly.

 

Best of luck!

 

-John

 

 

 

 

John

Thank you for the trouble shooting options, I will perform your suggested remedies and eliminate each as you mentioned.  Thank you I will let you know the out come of my trouble shooting opportunities.  Thank you very much for your input.

Ron

Most of the time I have issues like this it's the chuff switch.  The majority of times you can just bend the lever a bit to adjust it for chuffing.  Another thing to try before changing the switch is to shoot it with a bit of contact cleaner in any crack you can find.  I've only had to replace a handful of these switches, but I've had to adjust and clean a ton of them.

Are you able to swap another wireless tender of the same era?

No I only have one steam engine.  I did a complete reset. No change.  I will remove the boiler and check the boards and cam and cam trigger switch.

Since the whistle and bell work under command control, swapping the tender won't prove anything.  It seems clear the IR link is working.

 

It would show if the chuff signal was being passed, if neither works-looking at the engine, if one works-looking at the tender. (Thought the whistle and bell would work even if disconnected. After 3 defective Lionel Legacy steamers in a row we put those dollars into MTH diesels.)

There's nothing about the IR link that could inhibit passing of the chuff signal and let other commands through.  The IR link is driven by the serial data output from the R2LC.

 

The whistle and bell ONLY work independently in conventional mode.  If you are able to trigger the whistle and/or bell from the TMCC/Legacy remote, the IR link is working.

I imagine it is possible the chuff isn't working so it would be a good test to make sure where the fault is.

 

But since he doesn't have one, the chuff switch is the most logical issue to pursue.  G

If you had a tender, though I can tell you now that 99.99% of the time it wouldn't make a difference.

 

IIRC, that loco is 10 pounds of rice stuffed into a 5 pound bag. When you take it apart, be gentle and observant. It might be harder to put back together than you imagine.

Did you check the switch?

Probably like the Lindbergh Atlantic with the whistle smoke.  Two smoke units, and lots of boards, all stuffed into a pretty small locomotive!  It took several tries to get the wire dressed so it would go back together again after a board replacement!

So I did the TMCC reset, with no change.  I proceeded the to remove the boiler, and look at wire connections and I removed and resented the R2LC board.  I looked for broken wires.

I now put my attention towards the micro switch and the cam mechanism.  I shot some contact cleaner into the switch and checked to see that the cam was triggering the switch.  All looked in order.  The switch was a SPST type only one side being utilized.  I took a continuity tester to test the switch and noticed as I rotate the cam I always had continuity.

My question; is this switch is normally open? and when the cam rotates up pushing on the lever thus turning the switch off momentarily??

 

I am not 100% sure the switch is the suspect.  But after I checked all the wires and boards and cleaned off the switch contacts.  I powered up the engine with the tender.

 

Start up sequence was fine, I have horn, bell, comm/crew talk, and steam idle sounds. When I rotated the dial to move the engine I get one Chuff only on the first time I rotated the dial after a sequence start up.  No other time do I get that one chuff sound.

 

Switching directions does not give me the one chuff sound.  I went to the tender and check the IR connection and looked to see is any boards were loose, re seated wire connector. and retried.  Again after start up sequence I get that one chuff.

 

I think I am going to change out the micro switch or is there a way to bypass the switch so I can manually trigger the contact which interrupts the signal to make the chuff?

 

OH, and by the way, you're not kidding about packing 10 lbs of stuff into a 5 lbs bag.

Pulling off the boiler was like my car when I open the hood and see all motor not a spec of daylight.  hihi

 

Thanks form for all you input..

 

The switch should open and close when you rotate the wheels.  The first chuff is electronically generated, anything after that is triggered by the chuff switch.

 

Your description of the switch always being closed tells me that you either have a short to ground with the wiring from the switch to the R2LC or the switch is bad.

John, I know you do not need confirmation of what you have stated here about the tender so I am posting for this others. I have the Flyonel Big Boy with the same symptoms of intermittent chugging but good whistle and bell, idle sounds and crew talk are fine. I took the tender from my Challenger and put it behind the B. B. and got the same intermittent chug.

Ray

 

OK, I'm going to replace the micro switch first, then I know I have a good working switch, and then go from there.  Hearing the fist chug seem to me that the signal indicator is getting to the sound board.

Truthfully, there was never a question of the signal getting to the tender, the fact that other command sounds worked proves that.

 

If bending the arm doesn't change the behavior of the switch, replacement is the next step.

 

Over a year ago a friend brought his two new different numbered Lionel steamers over. One ran ok, on the other the chuff would stop. Swapped tenders and issue followed tender. Without the other tender he'd never have been able to eliminate the engine as the source.

If the chuff stopped with the tender, the command operation of the other sounds stopped as well.  This happens, I've had a couple where the IR sensor wiring was broken under the heatshrink and would come lose and you'd lose the chuff.

 

There is no way, short of a very obscure internal failure of the RailSounds board programming, that you can just have a failure of the chuffing in the wireless tender and still have proper command control of the other sounds.

 

Don't take my word for it, ask Lionel.

 

As John said, the first chuff is electronically triggered. That's why it still sounds even when a faulty switch provides no further chuff sounds.

 

Many times these switches get fouled by smoke fluid seeping into them. I had to replace many of mine on our smaller scale steamers.

 

Chuff update,  today I replaced the STDP micro switch.  Unplugged every wire going to both boards. With the motor out and all board wire disconnected.  I hooked up a continuity tester to the micro switch and rolled the drivers, the cam did push up the lever and the switch set NO did close momentarily as it is supposed to do. After plugging all the wire connectors back into the boards, mounting the motor. I did one more last continuity check by rotating the drivers again.  What I discovered was I had continuous continuity to the chuff switch. I disconnected the wire connector from the board, and checked the switch again.

 

All was good, the continuity turned off upon the cam pushing the lever.  So I proceeded to reset the engine ID and did complete reset.  Powered up engine and I did get the same results of only one chuff and all other sounds and smoke working fine.

 

I now went to the tender once again and checked all connections again. Cleaned the IR lens and gave it another try.  No change.

 

I seem to think there is something in the sound board.  I think its time for a Lionel service center visit.  

 

Thanks for everyone's input.

Ron

Again, it's NOT the sound board.  The tender is not the problem here, so don't waste your time and money chasing it.

 

One side of the chuff switch is frame ground, so take a meter and measure from frame ground to pin 17 of the R2LC socket with the R2LC removed.  See if you get the chuffing action there with the switch opening and closing.  If you do, first step is to swap out the R2LC.  If not, find out why.

OK Thanks I'll give that a try.

If you pull the R2LC out and with the 6 pin plug installed tot he Mother board and the chuff switch continuity check works, it would sound like the R2LC has an issue.  Plug it back in and if the switch has constant continuity the R2LC is the issue.

 

Here is a diagram that may help.  G

 

http://www.lionel.com/media/se...ulEngineTenderWD.pdf

ggg thanks I did check the wires at the connection to the connector. I will check the pins with the board out. If all is ok I'll replace the board.
Ron

I'd just swap one from a known working unit first, that will tell you if the board is functional or not.

Which board?

 

One of the issues is making sure the mother board is not damaged too.  Simple non destructive test to do his continuity test with R2LC installed and not installed.  Especially since he stated that once the connectors where all installed he had constant continuity on the new chuff switch.

 

G

If he has proper continuity to the R2LC pin from the chuff switch and can monitor it opening and closing from pin 17 to ground, I can't imagine how the motherboard is damaged.  Since all other functions are normal, if that connection is good, the R2LC is far and away the top suspect.  I think either substituting an R2LC or putting the suspect one in another locomotive is the next logical step if the above is true.

 

 

He Stated "What I discovered was I had continuous continuity to the chuff switch."  So if this is true, after all assembled, he needs to determine why?  May he cleared that issue, but that is what was stated a few post ago.  G

Update:  so I checked the continuity of pin 17 to ground.  With the R2LC board removed. I checked the continuity of pin 17.  The cam triggers the switch and I get intermittent readings from the continuity meter.  So the the cam, the cam's SPDT switch, wire, and connector into the R2LC are all functioning properly.  I think there is an issue in the R2LC board.  The only way to determine this is to try another R2LC broad.  I will order another board and see what happens.  I have eliminated all other mechanical options that could be suspect.  I will update once I receive my new R2LC board.

Ron

I'd just borrow one from another locomotive and test it.

OK, I did not realize R2LC  was that generic. 

Thanks I will update my progress.

When you check the R2LC, it will be the C08 firmware version, at least that's what the loco came with.  If so, anything later like the C11 or C13 will also work as a test for this issue.  Make sure you reprogram it totally whenever you move the R2LC between engines, and when you put it back.  That's both the ID and the engine type.