Lionel 66' "Graffiti" gondolas

John, I think you summed up the Graffiti situation very well. Thank you.

Dan Weinhold

Lancaster, PA.

I agree!

You have this graffiti situation in the USA; we have the same, here in France, they have the same in Germany, Spain, Italia,........etc...

Unbearable vandalism!

I don't understand this Lionel's approach!

jpv in France

 I imagine there are people who like it. Maybe they even have done this in the past?

I find myself hating the look of the cars or even engines that have been painted like this. For me, I'd rather have a weathered look over graffiti. It shows the look of equipment going thru the rigors of real life. I think that I don't approve of defacing private property and that it brings out the bad side when I see it. So again I imagine it's the way you look at the situation. I don't like rap music, or performers having tattoos to replace real world life experiences.

 Somehow nowadays, a tattoo or criminal rap sheet replaces talent.

Like it or hate it , it is called real life.  People will violate buildings, bridges, train cars etc., in order to put there mark somewhere?  Lionel is just showing what is really out there on the rails.

Quoting from ancient writings a comment on the state of our society....."They glory in their shame".   So much of what is being promoted today was illegal earlier in our lifetime.  "Nothing is wrong if it is ok with you".

Although it is reality I would never spend a second or a penny promoting graffiti or other social refuse on my layout.  Earlier quote;  "Whatever is of good report, think these things."

Thanks John, you nailed it!

The shame of it is with good mentoring, these graffiti vandals are otherwise artistically gifted.  It reminds me of an earlier promotion for urban education,  "a mind is a terrible thing to waste". Instead  they boast of being "wasted".

I bought one of these grafitti covered gondolas and I love it. I also weathered mine and put a custom scrap & garbage load in it. It's a very good reflection of reality. Like it or not grafitti is everywhere. In the NYC we're I grew up EVERYTHING railroad related was covered in it. Freight trains are still covered in it. I really enjoy seeing it and modeling it as I have put my own grafitti on some of my rolling stock and subway models. I applaud Lionel for pushing the boundaries beyond tradition. 

Now that being said I do agree that it is vandalism. It should not be allowed on private and public property, (as a side note Mth can no longer produce new tooling for subway sets cause they went against the MTA's wishes and produced a subway set with grafitti. I think Mth should not have made that set and should have just suggested in the description to add grafitti for a realistic 1970'ssubway experience, so that we could get more tooling for subway sets) but grafitti is also very hard to stop. It is a form of self expression for people; like it or not that's how some people choose to express themselves. 

I think it's better to express yourself on a Lionel model then to try it in real life. This is what I would impress on a kid that was getting the foolish idea to vandalize public or private property. 

https://youtu.be/xmCfwymNLjk

a link to one of my subway models I added grafitti to and the real life car that inspired me. I dont have a picture of the gondola but can post it later tonight. 

I find little graffiti to have any real artistic value. Mind you, I have seen a few works that I liked and enjoyed, these are the ex eption, not the rule. Most graffiti is just somebody’s “tag name” and I see no value in putting your name all over other peoples stuff tacky, distasteful and pointless. Now if somebody was going to put actual works of art on train cars like Vahn Gohs Starry Night or the Mona Lisa, or just original works by the artist, would that be so bad?

Dear taggers, your street name is not art and your work has no real value, please stop painting your crappy name on stuff.

But however distasteful, it is a reality and part of prototype modeling is to recreate reality in miniature.

Matt, I think you mean Van Gogh's 'starry night'.

If you don't like it don't buy them. I have the whole set. Personally, I find that it adds visual interest to otherwise drab cars. Some of it is actually very creative.

Matt Makens posted:

I find little graffiti to have any real artistic value. Mind you, I have seen a few works that I liked and enjoyed, these are the ex eption, not the rule. Most graffiti is just somebody’s “tag name” and I see no value in putting your name all over other peoples stuff tacky, distasteful and pointless. Now if somebody was going to put actual works of art on train cars like Picasso’s Starry Night or the Mona Lisa, or just original works by the artist, would that be so bad? Dear taggers, your street name is not art and your work has no real value, please stop painting your crappy name on stuff. But however distasteful, it is a reality and part of prototype modeling is to recreate reality in miniature.

Uh oh, we agree on something else.   What next.  Bad art is bad art and 99% of tagging is just bad art.  

Hahahahha  the semi annual "buying a graffiti car is promoting graffiti " thread.

Couple thoughts:

• If you don't like them, don't buy them. 
• These no more promote graffiti than the MTH Silver Bullet promotes drinking. I grew up in the days of cigarette ads all over tv.  Yet someone I have never smoked.  Perhaps my parents had something to do with that.   
• These do not glorify it.
•   The graffiti cars realistically portray what you can see on any given day on most rail lines. 
•    While I would never, ever condone graffiti, when I created a scale, realistic city scene with a freight terminal, I modeled exactly what I saw:  buildings, rails cars, and other things that were "tagged."
• This isn't an "I'm morally superior to you" issue/contest which leads again to :
• If you don't like them, don't buy them.   

Have a good day, and enjoy your trains your way.   I'll enjoy mine, my way.  We all have fun!

jdunn posted:

 

Also, since Lionel is viewed by our children and teens, is this sending a message that is is AOK to promote such habits.

 

 

 

Only a very small percentage of children or teens probably view, much less have any interest in Lionel trains.

On top of that, they're more likely to see the graffiti on a real train going by at a crossing anyway.

 However, neither of my points , or yours, really matter in this day and age.

With the images and videos kids have access to today, via any number of electronic devices, i.e  smart phone, i pad, etc etc.

Graffiti should be the least of your concerns.

jdunn posted:

Dear Forum members,

I visited the Lionel booth at the last TCA York show to specifically view the new offerings of the 66' Modern Gondolas to 2 rail.

I was surprised to see they were offering the car in Graffiti schemes.

While I applaud Lionel for producing a well detailed modern freight car and I have 2 railing at least half dozen it begs the question is Lionel promoting  a form of vandalism and would you purchase these new Graffiti cars ?

While some view this as a "art form" how would you like your auto or home adorned with this "masterpieces".

Also, since Lionel is viewed by our children and teens, is this sending a message that is is AOK to promote such habits.

Shouldn't this be left to be done by the modeler if he/she so chooses to do so.

Let your wallet tell Lionel if you approve of this. My O scale wallet will send a clear message-zero dollars to promote vandalism.

Thank you for your time. John

 

 

Well stated.  Matches my sentiments.

Bill Chaplik

Haha, thanks Chris, I knew it was wrong but didn’t take the time because I was in the middle of chasing the puppy around the house keeping her out of trouble.

The graffiti on rolling stock is not for me, but I see no problem with Lionel... or any other manufacture trying to bring to market unique items with limited appeal. 

Take a look at the new Sunset 3rd rail offering, the Krauss Maffei. I'm keeping my wallet closed on that one as well, but not to send Scott a message that I am unhappy with this selection, its just not for me.

Charlie

While it's not something I support in the real world, it's part of the real world and trying to recreate the prototype.  I'm happy that manufacturers in O Scale are trying to bring more prototypical equipment to O Scale.  I do show them by making purchases.  However, just like weathering, while not for everyone as mentioned above it is prototypical.  I'm glad I can choose cars with or without graffiti out of the box.  Thank you Lionel!  

In fact in other scales, like N Scale, weathered and graffiti cars are a big deal, with multiple releases monthly.

 

Also, since Lionel is viewed by our children and teens, is this sending a message that is is AOK to promote such habits.

Let your wallet tell Lionel if you approve of this. My O scale wallet will send a clear message-zero dollars to promote vandalism.

 

If this is promoting vandalism and that it's ok to children, then some children need better parents.

Disclaimer: I do not promote vandalism of any sort!!!

If you think about this, a significant amount of what we see modeled on a really well done model railroad can be depicted as something negative in someone's eyes. I have seen bars, boob clubs, murder scenes, prostitution, burglary scenes, police chases, and the list goes on. I agree with all that have said these are "real world" depictions rather we like them or not. A really smart kid could take a look at a layout and see all of the capitalism and man's greed depicted on it. OK, let me slow down. You can choose not to model those things you find to be a bad influence but that does not take away from the fact that they still exist and yes even on and near our American railroads. If you are modeling the modern era and you don't include some "urban art", then your layout is full of motive power and rolling stock that just came out of the paint shops or in a Utopia if you will.  That would be perfectly fine because it's YOUR layout. 

I know the initial dialogue focused on the issue of a manufacturer creating such a thing verses the modeler creating the adversity on his or her layout. The hobby has come so far with pre-built and ready to run equipment. This is almost the case with every facet of model railroading today. Should we be shocked or appalled that it trickled into pre-weathered or "graffitied" rolling stock? Well that's a matter of opinion. 

I applaud Lionel for making this an option for anyone who wants this depiction on their layout. Either way your layout will still be viewed by someone other than yourself and yes probably a child at some point. As far as any negative influence, teach your kids!!! I would hope that they wouldn't look at a model train layout and begin to act on negative "real life" activities depicted on it. If this would ever become an issue then we may have to kiss the future of this hobby goodbye. 

That's just my 2 and half cents worth.

Dave

This what a real GNTX railgon TTX gondola looks like covered with graffiti. 

The spray painting did NOT result in coherent or exciting artwork, and it covered the railgon and TTX graphics. I do not like how this turned out. 

Andrew

It is not art, it is vandalism plain and simple. 

Dave

falconservice posted:

This what a real GNTX railgon TTX gondola looks like covered with graffiti. 

The spray painting did NOT result in coherent or exciting artwork, and it covered the railgon and TTX graphics. I do not like how this turned out. 

Andrew

Hey Andrew,

We have all seen bad graffiti and we have seen graffiti that makes us do a double take.  I don't believe the topic is what is good art or bad art but rather it should be duplicated by model railroading manufacturers and supported by the model railroad consumer. 

Additionally, I have never been part of this type of activity and don't agree with it but I would put money on it that the "artist" could care less about the rail company's logo and just wants to put their stamp on the world. Look at me ironically saying "put money on it". Don't take me literally.

Lastly, I remember reading in 2014, an article about graffiti becoming an epidemic on railroad equipment. Because very few people were caught, the idea was "if you can't beat em', join em'. The premise behind this was to invite gifted artist to do their thing legally and use their gift to promote the railroad in a positive way. I'm not sure that went anywhere but the fact that it was being discussed is my point. 

Dave

The thing is that the graffiti often covers important data and numbers on the side of the car. That is not what I would pay for.

Andrew

That is certainly your choice.

While I totally agree that graffiti is vandalism, and I would never condone it:

Some of the best scale/prototypical layouts I've seen have had some graffiti.  On rail cars and inducstrial buildings.

I always remember thinking, "wow!  This guy nailed it, right down to the weathering, dirt, grime, and graffiti." It simply added another element that brought me further into that little world for a moment.

Like modellers, artists, and even photographers, many depict what they see.

Here's a couple of examples that I think are really good.

A garden railroad G

Hopper at terminal

Boxcar on the line

One thing I have found, is that the realistic railroad graffiti cars and buildingss is HUGE business in HO and N, and I have recently seen some really good weathered and graffiti'd Z-scale freight.

Here's my 66' gondola with grafitti, that I weathered and put a custom scrap load in.

Nicely weathered car!  Thanks for posting!

DJ, thats solid work

Matt Makens posted:

DJ, thats solid work

Thanks I appreciate that! 

Grafitti is nothing more than vandalism.  Personally, I would not model any rolling stock with graffiti.  I agree with the original poster in that Lionel is sending the wrong message to newer members of our hobby.  If you ignore something it usually goes away.  

In Perth, West Australia we have very little graffiti because it gets washed off as soon as it's discovered although saying that we have a new radical state govt who knows what will happen.

I hope we never get to the stage where we model crime, I won't. My opinion only.  Roo.

Peddling stuff with that CRAP on it is tacit approval of an illegal act. They should be ashamed.

Simon

I see nothing nice about those gondolas. Weathering, ok but the graffiti looks like hell. It ruins the car IMO.

Dave

I like the cars with graffiti. I purchased  all of them.   It is real life. Some people complain when their ice cream is cold. 

Jeff gibs posted:

I like the cars with graffiti. I purchased  all of them.   It is real life.

That depends on the era you are modeling. Yes, it is "real life" today, but it was NOT "real life" back in the late 1940s thru mid 1950s.

Some people complain when their ice cream is cold. 

The micro-wave takes care of that problem.

Jeff gibs posted:

I like the cars with graffiti. I purchased  all of them.   It is real life.

And that middle rail???

Simon

PS: We'll be over to do your car tonight!