Lionel, Are you going to have the ES44AC headlights in their prototypical location? on the nose!

I ask the same question my self. Also will CSX, Ferromex, and Iowa Interstate have steerable trucks as per the prototype? Nose head lights are also a must though. Either way I plan on picking up both CN, and Ferromex numbers.

Why not email Lionel direct?  They do read them.    Contact Lionel

I was going to say the same thing about the CSX unit.  At least they got the numberboards right (at the top).  The earlier series CSX ES44AC had both the numberboards and the headlights on the nose.  I have the latest MTH CSX ES44AC with Protosound 3.0.  Very impressed and it also comes with the boxcar logo.

Evidently, not all ES44AC's have the headlights in the same location?

I have these two Lionel models, and their headlights are in the same location as on the 1:1 models:

NS Conrail ES44AC

NS Nickel Plate Road ES44AC

Alex

This is the email that I sent to Lionel on 9/20/2013:

With the SD70Aces Lionel changed some of the details on the rear of the long hood (which is a large part) but did not move the headlight from the nose to the cab or add the isolated cab feature, both of which are smaller parts, on the NS Heritage units. 

However, they did return to blind axles which are a PITA to remove.

Depends if the newly tooled plastic ES44 body could easily accept a change in light location. Surely easier than the diecast.

And if Lionel doesn't do it, you could be able to yourself.

I think you're going to be disappointed, the catalog shows them on the cab and not the nose.

I received this response from Lionel today. 

"You are correct.  Previously we did offer an alternative versions  of the headlight for our Die-cast ES44AC.  In an effort to control costs and provide the engines at an affordable price they will only be available as seen in the catalogue.  The engines will also be plastic.

We realize that the trucks are not exact for all of the ES44's we offer.  We will be using the same truck for all of the ES44 locos.  Making the change to a more standardized system allows us to produce some of the smaller roadnames like the Ferromex you mentioned.  We intend to manufacture the Ferromax even if the quantity made is a low amount. 

Thank You,

Angela" from Talk To US (TalkToUS@LIONEL.COM)

I also asked about the new "Scale SD70MAC's", and here is Lionel's response.

"We no longer have the K-line tooling available for use.  We must use the existing tooling that we have."

So that means these new "Scale SD70Mac's" will be just another legacy update of the old tooling like they did with their Dash-9's.

That is the reason I will not buy Lionel's NS heritage SD70ACe's. I don't know why Lionel couldn't have made the cab isolated if they reworked the tooling for the new NS heritage series. All of their ACe's are a based off model 1 Union Pacific SD70ACe's. Now all ES44AC's will be based of the new plastic NS heritage tooling. Blind axles, poor new sound system, and a non-isolated cab on a UP model 1 body was a deal breaker for me.

"In an effort to control costs and provide the engines at an affordable price..."

Seems like we'd better get used to those words.

Rusty

I also received this response on 3/25/14.

" Thank you for your comments. We are too far out from production on the ES44s right now to be able to comment on whether or not we'll be able to support the tooling changes to move the headlights and replace the trucks. Glad to see you are preordering - hopefully many more will to ensure we get enough to fulfill our production minimums."

"The SD70MACs will use a combination of existing and retooled parts."

I guess it only took six days to comment on it after all.

After reading this, and many similar threads where some are complaining about the small details not being specific to 'Their' required model, I have to ask a few questions:-

Are these small points so important to you that you would rather go without an engine?

Would you rather pay substantially more for these details to be as you desire them?

Would you rather that Lionel (And others.) only produce the road names for which the small details are correct?

Is anything preventing you from purchasing one of these models, and altering the small details to your satisfaction yourself?

Please bear in mind that the manufacturers are trying to please the majority of modelers, not just you.  Many of us are quite happy with the models as they are, or are prepared to customize one to suit our wishes. 

We are all quite happy to run our trains on 3 rail track, so I find it strange that anyone can say 'I'm not buying that! The 3rd rivet on the left is the wrong shape!!'  

OK. I've now used one my allowance of rants, so I'll shut-up now. 

Time to head for the hills, Nicole's loose and she's feisty!

I think the head light, since it lights up in operation, is a very noticeable item if it is in the wrong spot. I can understand that some modellers want their models that cost $500 or so to be as close as possible to the real loco especially with some important details such as the head lights, ditch lights, number boards and so on. Also, some one said in this thread that MTH has the ES44AC right?

The issue is; where does one draw the line of scale realism vs cost????

All LEGACY railsounds systems include quilling horn, sequence control, spoken speed and fuel levels and a full complement of engine sound effects. All the bells and whistles are definitely included.

-Rudy

First off with a thread name like "Lionel, Are you going to have the ES44AC headlights in their prototypical location? on the nose!" that probably ensures that particular thread is a complaint thread. I don't see it as small point when the trucks, and or both the head light are wrong especially if Lionel wants to promote them as "Scale, or STD O." I do not have brand loyalty either, if MTH can make it better than I will buy MTH. I also would pay more for these major detail to be correct. Yes I am young, but I am not new to this hobby. My self, my wife, and my children are very big into railroading. I shouldn't have to spend $500.00 ($400 if you pre-order now) on a locomotive then spend even more to make it correct. My post are simply to allow those wondering about these details the information they so desire. I will not purchase these models, and just save my $1,600 plus until someone can make them better. I think this will in fact hurt Lionel sales greatly. 3-rail track has nothing to due with quality of the model either. With companies including the terms "Scale, and STD O" along with their products, then that brings that particular product into a whole new ballgame!

I'd be willing to bet that for every one person that's worried about the headlight in the nose, there's five that only are worried about if the loco's got smoke and twenty that don't care where the headlight is, as long as it's painted for their favorite road.

Rusty

Just curious if this is something new or not regarding the headlights?

As the 2012 Catalog had the headlights between the number boards and not on the nose!

Or maybe I fall into the group Rusty commented on above?

May be Lionel marketing feels the same way

Here are the major issues for each road name if it helps any.

It doesn't cost substantially more to get the details right, and anyone who believes this has drunk to much kool-aid!  Case in point is 3rd Rail, who for about $100 that Lionel is asking for this model, customizes locomotives correctly for the respective road names.

I gotta say that I am at a loss as to why Lionel can't get lights done correctly on this model.    Seems that the indent in the nose above the 'CSX' logo is perfect for the movement of the lights from the spot next to the number boards. Thus, it seems that it would cost little, or nothing, to move the lights.  I don't see where they would even have to change the die.

I had planned on ordering two CSX ES44AC models, but right now I am on the fence about placing a pre-order to do so. 

I have never felt the need to alter a new engine right out of the box, and while in this case it looks like an easy fix, I'm hesitant to take off the shells, for the fear that I would void the Lionel warranties.

Jim

Perhaps I should have started a new thread, rather than post my comments in this one. But there have been so many posts recently where people have been getting so worked up about small details, that I felt the need to speak out. My comments don't just apply to Lionel either. Some of the posts have been about other manufacturers too.

I think sometimes that many forget that these are only model trains. Our lives do not depend upon them being prototypically correct in every respect. Perhaps I'm more tolerant than some, as I buy my trains because I think that they look good and have the features that I like. I don't even care if the rail road in question ever actually possessed that locomotive, coach or freight car. If I like it, then I will add it to my collection. For example, I have an NYC DD-35A, and I'm awaiting delivery of a set of SP RF-16s. In my railway world, all things are possible and nothing is unacceptable. 

Life is way too short to get all worked-up about small things. Believe me, I know. Peace and love to all. 

Nowadays the utilization of modular tooling is commonplace.  This allows the importers/manufacturers to manipulate the model by adding removing, or relocating certain key spotting body details do they reflect the appropriate prototype, and do so relatively easy.  Paying "substantially more" would have been a more valid argument over 10 years ago when that practice was exclusive to the brass importers perhaps.  That's simply not the case anymore with the increasing amount of higher-end, mass-produced plastic (and in some cases, die-cast) models over the past decade when this practice was being more & more widely adopted.

I don't think anyone is asking for this level of scrutiny on starter-sets and postwar remakes where minimalist and generic details are to be expected.  Models like the scale ES44AC are held to a different level of expectation.  It only makes sense to do your homework and do some extra due dilligence to make it so it appeals to the more discerning hobbyist.  Those that don't care as much would be happy with it right as well as wrong, so going the extra mile to get some more of the details right would have the benefit of reigning in those additional buyers that would otherwise not consider it, thereby having more sales.

Some people such as myself who work full-time & raising younger kids don't have an abundance of free time to "correct" these deficiencies on models.  I'd rather spend that time working on scenery or just running the trains.  Some people simply don't have the skills or aptitude to do it either and would rather not risk further "butchering" a model they already paid a premium price for to correct what should have been done by the importer to begin with.

The funny thing is, I had this same conversation with an S Scale friend of my regarding the American Flyer ES44's.  To him, the headlights on the cab are a deal breaker, for me they're not. 

We've agreed to disagree.

As the ES44's are waaaay outside my chosen modeling era, I'm only looking for something to keep my Flyer SD70 company (and I don't want it to be an NS Hertiage unit) as it makes an occasional guest appearance on my railroad via time warp. 

I'd expect even less of a chance that Lionel would move the headlights on the Flyer version than the O version.  It be nice if the headlights were on the nose, but it's no big deal to me if they're not.

Rusty

Actually, it get tiresome that whenever there is a thread that talks about the accuracy of a model to read the 'it doesn't matter they are just toys rants.'   

I never stick my nose in the way that anyone wants to enjoy the hobby.  I am very glad that there are separate niches in this hobby so that everyone has a chance to enjoy what interests them!

And it seldom cost extra to do things right.  When they are done right, the people who care about the details are happy as well as those that don't.

Jim

WOW...Lionel did so many details right on this model, I wish they just did not miss the proper trucks and the lights...

I don't think anyone has ever suggested that there lives have ever depended on having prototypically accurate models.  What I think those that DO suggest, however, is that having models that are more prototypically accurate makes the hobby more enjoyable for them.   Having headlights that are not mounted in the correct position is a little more visually obvious than, say, a ventillation screen being  1/16th of a scale inch too wide. 

I'm sorry if I seem "All worked up." I was just giving a peaceful response to your statement. I value you opinion, just as I hope you value mine. I understand in this hobby many are perfectly happy with toy trains no matter the paint, prototypical accuracy, and or detail. You just have to realize that there are just as many of us who do care about the paint, prototypical accuracy, and or detail. That's why I do not buy O'27, and "O" gauge trains. I am strictly a "Scale", and "STD O" modeler. As I stated before I was just providing information straight from Lionel on the issue at hand. I had no plans to start an argument over anything, or to seem "Worked up." Thank you.

The other thing that mentioned in this thread is the placement of the door on the nose of the locomotive.  For some road names, the door is on the right and for others it is on the left.  As this appears to be a re-use of the NS Heritage dies, this would explain the door placement.

One thing that I think is neat is that Lionel is using the semi-fixed pilot from the earlier models.  In the videos that I seen, I think the engine looks great going around O-72 curves with a little swing in the pilot versus body swing!

Jim

It really does boil down to what matters to you, it is your hobby and your hobby money.   I think it is good for Lionel, etc to know where/how your hobby money is/isn't being spent.

Scott Mann told me he thinks about retailing Atlas and maybe some others.  He said that at the current discount levels others give he would still be making more than he does on Sunset/3rdRail/GGD things.  The reason so few retailers carry his things is because of the low margins.

For me,

I don't expect better from MTH or Lionel than there is.  They both are improving from my perspective.  But, Lionel is still better than MTH from an accuracy perspective to me most of the time.

I don't care about "features". My models are for display and I would have to 2-rail them and change them to DCC to operate them. 

I keep them as placeholders until I have Overland or other more accurate replacements.  I can now sell my Lionel SD70ACes, other than the Virginian and the blue demonstrator because I do have those replacements. 

Except for the Ferromex, which Lionel canceled the SD70ACe and has never offered them again.  But then, Overland cancelled them too, due to lack of reservations.  But I will be getting Lionel's Ferromex ES44s until I have something better (unless they are cancelled too).

I think it depends on the locomotive. Lionel makes some models that are more detailed and correct than MTH and vice versa. Atlas has both of them beat when it comes to accuracy.

I run SD40s and SD40-2s and besides the obvious (Atlas SD40s are incredibly detailed and accurate) the Dash 2s are not some of Lionel's and MTH's better efforts but they still look good to me.