lionel b6sb issue

Is the shouldered area of the bolt actually tight against the wheel? If it isn't I would file grind the threaded end of bolt.

I would be reluctant to file anything seen.

If the side that isn't rubbing has less lateral play, I would try snugging up the bolt. 1/2 turn-1 turn should make a noticable difference.

Also double check that the valve guide didn't get bent during shipping.

You have to first determine if the thread is too long or the shoulder. I am guessing the shoulder but to find out you have to remove the screw and either remove the siderod or measure the shoulder and the side rod thickness. If the shoulder is within .010" of the siderod it may be the threads are too long, otherwise the shoulder is too long. Thats a bit harder to file down.

Pete

I think Pete has the answer, you need to shorten the part that needs shortening.  The shoulder or the threads are a bit long it appears.  Is there a gap next to the wheel where the shoulder doesn't meet the wheel?

It may also be possible to slightly bend out the rods where they hit, I've had that on several locomotives.

"Grind the threaded end of the bolt?????"...... "you have to remove the screw and either remove the side rod or measure the shoulder and the side rod thickness. If the shoulder is within .010" of the side rod it may be the threads are too long,"  Hey guys.....You just paid $650 for poor quality.....how about sending it back?????

@Oneonta posted:

Hey guys.....You just paid $650 for poor quality.....how about sending it back?????

You're beginning to be a One Note Samba, please give it a rest.  Any problem you see with a Lionel product your solution is to send it back.  Maybe he doesn't want to sent it back for a minor issue, I believe we all are capable of making that decision all on our own!  I have a plan.  You do what you like when you see a minor issue on your Lionel purchases, and we'll do likewise!

Hi GunRunnerJohn,

Let's just stick with facts and dispense with personal attacks and insinuations, ok?

Fact 1: these locomotives exited the factory with a mechanical defect. Therefore, they are not fit for sale for the intended purpose: i.e. Lionel is on the hook for remediation. It should be returned to Lionel for repair/replacement, and Lionel improve their Quality Validation/Testing.

Fact 2: Not all customers are machinists and mechanics nor desire to be.

Fact 3: observing Fact 1 and Fact 2 will enhance positive experiences rather than negative experiences for everyone.

Thank you.

Will Danos

20 years Mechanical Life Testing and Durability Engineering

BSME '97 University of Michigan

When it is compared to the other side what is different?

@Barber s-2 posted:

Fact 1: these locomotives exited the factory with a mechanical defect. Therefore, they are not fit for sale for the intended purpose: i.e. Lionel is on the hook for remediation. It should be returned to Lionel for repair/replacement, and Lionel improve their Quality Validation/Testing.

I think you need to check your facts. I have the Santa Fe B6sb and it has been perfect. I gave the locomotive a good lube job out of the box, put it on the track, powered it up and away it went. No problems. Thus "these locomotives exited the factory with a mechanical defect" is clearly not a true statement. If it were a true statement then mine and everyone else's B6sb would have mechanical defects.

Now this particular locomotive belonging to the OP has an issue and is getting fine advice from other posters.

I have a picture of my particular unit posted in this thread:

https://ogrforum.com/topic/new-lionel-b6sb

@Barber s-2 posted:

Hi GunRunnerJohn,

Let's just stick with facts and dispense with personal attacks and insinuations, ok?

Fact 1: these locomotives exited the factory with a mechanical defect. Therefore, they are not fit for sale for the intended purpose: i.e. Lionel is on the hook for remediation. It should be returned to Lionel for repair/replacement, and Lionel improve their Quality Validation/Testing.

Fact 2: Not all customers are machinists and mechanics nor desire to be.

Fact 3: observing Fact 1 and Fact 2 will enhance positive experiences rather than negative experiences for everyone.

Thank you.

Will Danos

20 years Mechanical Life Testing and Durability Engineering

BSME '97 University of Michigan

The "facts" are that you somehow know better than the original OP about what he wants to do with his locomotive.  Your Fact 1: is actually just your opinion.  You think that ever minor issue with a product should be returned.  Since the OP is here asking about the issue and obviously wants to correct it and not go through the hassle of sending it back, maybe you should respect his opinion.  Let's come back to earth and live in the real world, OK?

Your Fact2: doesn't seem to apply here, he seems to want to address the issue, so maybe he's one of the customers that believes minor issues can be corrected without all the hassle of sending it back.  Again, try to respect other folks opinions.  This is a discussion forum, if he decides what we're discussing isn't worth the time, he can make that decision, he doesn't need your help.

Do you really want to start listing degrees and experience in an effort to impress someone?  If so, it's not working.

Thanks for the advice so far. My plan is to take the side rods off and and see what's up and get some accurate measurements. I have no plans to send this back. It seems it's just a minor issue I need to tweak to get it perfect. On straight track with no sounds on, the engine is silent and purrs along. It's only curves where I hear the tick, tick, tick. I'll report back when I know more.

Joe, if it turns out a screw with a shorter shoulder would help here, know that Lionel has a few. Your engine is listed as having a .156" x .100" x 3mm x .5thd. Rod screw.

.100" is the shoulder length. Lionel shows similar screws with .090" and .078" shoulders. As long as the shoulder is longer than the width of the siderod it will work. You won't have to try and file down the screw you have.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...;q=Shldr&match=0

Pete

@Norton posted:

Joe, if it turns out a screw with a shorter shoulder would help here, know that Lionel has a few. Your engine is listed as having a .156" x .100" x 3mm x .5thd. Rod screw.

.100" is the shoulder length. Lionel shows similar screws with .090" and .078" shoulders. As long as the shoulder is longer than the width of the siderod it will work. You won't have to try and file down the screw you have.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...;q=Shldr&match=0

Pete

I measured the screw and the shoulder is .100" as you listed above and the total head and shoulder is .156".  I saw Lionel does have shorter shoulders but the head and shoulder still total .156".  The rod thickness is .05" so I can go to a .078" shoulder. If the total head and shoulder is a total .156" I will still have the same problem.  I should know more tomorrow once I get all the value gear off .  With all the value gear off, I will put the bare screw in the wheel and see how far it actually goes in to see if if the shoulder is actually tight against the wheel.

Joe, I believe the .156" is the diameter of the shoulder, not the total length above the threads. It may be a coincidence on that part that it matches. Here is one with a .078" shoulder length. BTW blueing will darken these if needed.

For comparison this is listed as .156" x  .318"

Pete

@Joe Fermani posted:

I measured the screw and the shoulder is .100" as you listed above and the total head and shoulder is .156".  I saw Lionel does have shorter shoulders but the head and shoulder still total .156".  The rod thickness is .05" so I can go to a .078" shoulder. If the total head and shoulder is a total .156" I will still have the same problem.  I should know more tomorrow once I get all the value gear off .  With all the value gear off, I will put the bare screw in the wheel and see how far it actually goes in to see if if the shoulder is actually tight against the wheel.

I’m in the let’s fix it camp too, ...do be mindful of shoulder burial, ...ie; how much of that shoulder becomes buried in the wheel....it’d be an impossible measurement to get on locomotive, but with the rod out of the way, you can thread the original bolt in the hole and eyeball gauge it,......the easiest way to tell is if the bolt hole has a defined “cup” or is it flush on the wheel face,......just don’t wanna see your numbers get skewed from a .002-.003 drop into the wheel,....then your .078 becomes less effective “crank pin surface “ ....double check that....

Pat

Hi WBC, Hi GunRunnerJohn,

                I'm dismayed...

                Much can be inferred by the fabricated accusation, puerile and assumptive abuse that both of you laid upon me as I exercised my right to participate in this forum, an open forum of which is the property of OGR, all the writings posted herein, too.  Think about that...

                For the record, I support the entire breadth of this hobby and the member hobbyist's rights and aspirations.

                On the one hand, members that expect a $600 model to operate flawlessly straight from the box is a reasonable expectation, and a right with various forms of legal protection, as well as promoting positive experiences of improved Quality Control thru customer feedback. On the other hand, members that enjoy repairing, machining and fabricating mechanical devices is also a reasonable expectation and an opportunity in this hobby for those that enjoy doing so. 

These are two viewpoints that bound opposite ends of the spectrum of interests in this hobby, and both are equally valid and warrant respect.

Promoting and supporting the hobby by respecting these various rational viewpoints is the road to positive Stewardship, if that's what you seek. 

Thank you.

Will Danos

20 years Mechanical Life Testing and Durability Engineering

BSME '97 University of Michigan

Will, why don’t you let this play out? It hasn’t been established yet if the screw has simply backed out. Are you implying loose screws are a factory defect?

Pete

@Barber s-2 posted:

                Much can be inferred by the fabricated accusation, puerile and assumptive abuse that both of you laid upon me as I exercised my right to participate in this forum, an open forum of which is the property of OGR, all the writings posted herein, too.  Think about that...

I can't see how, unless I failed reading comprehension.  As to the "fabricated accusation", I have no idea what you're talking about, exactly what did I accuse you of?  I have no power to deny you access to this forum, nor am I attempting in any way to do that.  You expressed your opinion on the situation and I expressed mine.  It would seem that the OP doesn't share yours or he'd have it in a box and going through the tedious phone process of getting an RMA.

However, I did express what seems obvious from the previous post in this thread, that the OP didn't want to ship this back and have all the hassle.  I just don't understand why people are so hard over in sending trying to subvert the assistance thread to a debate on Lionel QC.  We all know the situation, and most of us are simply trying to assist in solving the issue with the least amount of angst and expense, I don't believe in this case that would be sending it back to Lionel.

@Barber s-2 posted:

On the one hand, members that expect a $600 model to operate flawlessly straight from the box is a reasonable expectation, and a right with various forms of legal protection, as well as promoting positive experiences of improved Quality Control thru customer feedback. On the other hand, members that enjoy repairing, machining and fabricating mechanical devices is also a reasonable expectation and an opportunity in this hobby for those that enjoy doing so. 

These are two viewpoints that bound opposite ends of the spectrum of interests in this hobby, and both are equally valid and warrant respect.

On the third hand, three's another viewpoint.  A buyer that's presented with two alternatives, neither of which is the ideal.  Either fix a minor issue or go through the process of sending it back and spending the money to ship it.

I don't see anywhere I was arguing that the best scenario isn't to receive a perfect product with no flaws, but I live in the real world.  I love to unpack something and have it work 100% and have no blemishes or incorrect paint, etc. That would have sure been ideal in this situation, but that didn't happen.

I try to take into account that the current model train products are a fairly complicated mix of electronics and mechanics, build off-shore with minimal QC interaction from Lionel.  Not all of that is able to be controlled by the folks at Lionel, many of the Chinese manufacturing sites don't allow on-site QC from the buyer.  The situation isn't about to change any time soon, so we can stop buying trains or live with the realities of today.

Feel free to have the last word, I'm done with this conversation!

@Barber s-2 posted:

Hi WBC, Hi GunRunnerJohn,

                I'm dismayed...

                Much can be inferred by the fabricated accusation, puerile and assumptive abuse that both of you laid upon me as I exercised my right to participate in this forum, an open forum of which is the property of OGR, all the writings posted herein, too.  Think about that...

                For the record, I support the entire breadth of this hobby and the member hobbyist's rights and aspirations.

                On the one hand, members that expect a $600 model to operate flawlessly straight from the box is a reasonable expectation, and a right with various forms of legal protection, as well as promoting positive experiences of improved Quality Control thru customer feedback. On the other hand, members that enjoy repairing, machining and fabricating mechanical devices is also a reasonable expectation and an opportunity in this hobby for those that enjoy doing so.

These are two viewpoints that bound opposite ends of the spectrum of interests in this hobby, and both are equally valid and warrant respect.

Promoting and supporting the hobby by respecting these various rational viewpoints is the road to positive Stewardship, if that's what you seek.

Thank you.

Will Danos

20 years Mechanical Life Testing and Durability Engineering

BSME '97 University of Michigan

The other two have sugarcoated this long enough, .....I don’t ,.....if you don’t like the thread,....BEAT IT!...go cry somewheres else,....dude wants to fix it, we’ll help him make it better than new,.....

Pat

Its fixed! After taking all the value gear off, I confirmed the hex bolt was seated in the wheel. But what I did find was the value gear has a little play where it bolts to the steam chest. I made sure it was fully seated as far as it would go and retightened the screw which secures that. I then reinstalled the rods making sure the bolts were tight and seated. There really isn't any room for error or the hex bolt will hit the value gear. Tested it on the track and it's now silent through the curves. Thanks for the simple suggestions. Since I had the shell off I took a pic of the insides incase you were curious.

Love to see a success story, nice job.   I have one of these as well, neat little locomotive.

@Norton posted:

Joe, I believe the .156" is the diameter of the shoulder, not the total length above the threads. It may be a coincidence on that part that it matches. Here is one with a .078" shoulder length. BTW blueing will darken these if needed.

For comparison this is listed as .156" x  .318"

Pete

Pete, if the reseat didnt work, I was going to try the shorter bolts. That would have been easier than grinding. Thanks for the tip.

Result!...awesome work,....nice pinpoint repair!...

Pat

Good deal Joe. Had this not did the trick I was going to suggest one more thing to do. You may not own a lathe, at least what most think of one but for small items like this your drill motor could have been used like one. If the screw head was still touching you could have chucked that screw in your drill and touch a file to the head. You would have a lot of control on how much came off and still get a decent finish especially if you touched it up with sand paper while it was spinning. Then some blueing. Same goes for a drill press.

Pete