Lionel GS-5 Vision Daylight Steam Engine #4459

@Ryan Selvius posted:

.........As for white walls, locomotives really only had them when they left the builder. After a couple weeks of service they were gone and railroads didn’t repaint them. They look sharp but if you want to model SP operations they were only present when the locomotives were newly delivered.

That may have been true for most SP GS engines (as it was for some other railroads), but back when the previous GS models came out there was extensive discussion about the whitewalls, and several photos were produced showing some whitewalls still appearing on a few active GS engines sometime into their active service lives. At some point, though, all the whitewalls disappeared.

@ES44AC posted:

Not necessarily. Acrylic comes off with a little bit of alcohol (or even water, but it requires a little bit more scrubbing) to expose the white (or black) that remains untouched below. I've painted over white walls and then removed them multiple times on a few of my engines.

That's good to know. Thanks for the information. I'd hope the alcohol wouldn't affect the white paint at all. Seems I've heard of some people using alcohol to assist in the removal of paint in some instances.

@Dave Olson posted:

Builders photos.

The argument could be made that the builders photos for both also show SPL instead of SP on the tender, but we wanted both variations available in the GS-5 line.

Dave,

I'll have to respectfully disagree as to the "Builder's photos" argument, since I can't believe ANY modeler really wants their very expensive Legacy GS-5 to always be sitting in an engine terminal as "just delivered from Lima Locomotive Works". Thus the "X4458/X4459" in the Train Number Indicators means that the model could NEVER be used to pull any sort of SP passenger train.

@breezinup posted:

That may have been true for most SP GS engines (as it was for some other railroads), but back when the previous GS models came out there was extensive discussion about the whitewalls, and several photos were produced showing some whitewalls still appearing on a few active GS engines sometime into their active service lives. At some point, though, all the whitewalls disappeared.

I won’t dispute the existence of photos showing GS engines with white walls in service, possibly even in postwar lettering but I can say that wasn’t the norm and it wasn’t official SP practice. Some mechanical and paint shops on the SP system operated a little differently when it came to decoration. When SP was phasing out requirements for aluminum trim and other accent details, some shops chose to keep applying those accents because they wanted to and had pride in the engines they maintained. This type of thing happened on many railroads during the days of steam. It is easy to imagine that certain people liked the white wall look and would paint them on when the engine came in for service. Of course they’d be gone after a week out on the road.

OK, so this should clear some things up on the great paint debate. These are side by side comparisons with the color swatches for Daylight red and Daylight orange from Robert Church’s Southern Pacific Daylight Locomotives book.

GS-5 tender next to Daylight red. Pretty close match to my eye. The color swatch is a bit darker but I think this is good enough.

Now next to Daylight orange. Lionel’s orange is a bit darker and has a bit more red in it.

Now compared to Daylight colors on the atlantic from 2002

These colors match the 38079 GS-2 from 2004. My sample of the engine currently resides at my parents’ house but I do have a spare pilot from this model

The orange and red from this era are quite a bit different. Lionel’s orange is redder and the red is paler.

And some side by sides of 2002-2004 Lionel Daylight colors and 2020 Lionel Daylight colors. While they are different, they aren’t bad.

I’ll be up at my parents’ house in a couple weeks so I plan to compare the 2004 Daylight cars. I also want to compare to my SPHTS Paint and Lettering Guide which is also at their house right now.

I think they look great. Lionel has been (rightfully) hammered for some awful color releases, but they seem to have done a terrific job here. Hopefully, this means they have gotten their [stuff] together and these color fumbles are now under control.

I think the paint is well within the margin of paint color variation that would have existed on these engines in the 40s and 50s. I still maintain my opinion that this is the closest Lionel has come although I do admit, I don’t have the 2008 or 2016 models to compare.

I remembered a few minutes ago that I also have a set of MTH Premier Daylight cars at my parents’ house. I’ll be digging those out to see how they match the engines and the color swatch.

I'm pretty picky when it comes to an 1800+ dollar model trains....but I think the paint is more than fine.  No complaints on my end.

Only concern now is what's inside the belly of the model beast.

@Hot Water posted:

Well, as nice as that 4436 model was (I had one), the Daylight "Ball & wing" logo was backwards on one side of the skirts. I had to have my custom painter/detailer/weatherer fit that with correct Champ Decals.

Man, in all the years I have owned the #4436 model, I never noticed that until you had me looking for it. That’s funny.... That mistake never caught my eye, but sure enough, that’s how it is. It’s like they just printed one logo and tried to get it to work on both sides. Who did they pay to think that would work. Very short sighted indeed.

My engineers side ladder and rails looks a little bent forward (more than normal it seems) and the handrails are not plumb as well on the 4436. I looked at the fastenings and everything looks tight, and not bent. No damage. I noticed another on eBay today, and it’s the same. The Fireman’s side handrails are perfectly vertical. Must have been a factory mis alignment. I tried loosening the mounting screw to see if it had just wandered, everything relaxed and the handrails went almost plumb. When I tightened the screw again they raked forward slightly as the screw found it’s seat. I thought it might have been damaged (I’m the second owner for about 8 years now) but now I’m thinking it was a factory misalignment.

@oceandreams89 posted:

Ya'know, I have 3rd Rail 4449 that came like that. The reason was that in wrapping for shipping it at the factory, the tape around the foam that enclosed it was pulled really tight and bent the brass components out of shape. I got it back into what I found was the correct alignment, and although it still looked odd to me, these parts were not perfectly straight on the prototype. I had to repaint it as well but that was the easy part.

Yours in the first photo above doesn't look right to me because the handrails are in front of the cab door seams (for want of a better word) but the reason may well be the same in terms of excess force applied to it.

And here is the eBay example. I guess it’s hard to tell, but it looks bent forward too on the engineer side.

I admit, it does not look right, and I never noticed it until someone pointed it out as we were talking about selling it. That side has always been on the inside of my loop, so it has always been on the far side of the layout when I see that side. I know I never damaged it for sure, so I’m sure I bought it that way.

I tried to order the ladder, but of course, it comes as the whole cab assembly for $90. It does not bother me $90 worth.

Regarding the color comparisons: I’m running the MTH Premier Daylight cars from a while back. My lighting isn’t the greatest right now but here is how the new 4459 tender color compares to the Premier baggage car at least. The MTH reds and oranges appear darker. I’m fine with it personally, but others might enjoy the comparison. I have the Church book as well, but never went so far to compare the color matching.

As Hancock52 points out, bent ladders are common. My 3rd Rail GS4 also arrived with a bent ladder. Not a big deal to straighten it.

Pete

Prototypically, the engineer's & fireman's ladders on the GS are "bent forward." Kind of different looking, and at first glance, if someone's not familiar with the real engines, it seems the ladders are bent improperly from the way they're supposed to be. The right side (engineer's side) ladder pictured on the Sunset model photographed above has been damaged somewhere along the line, though, with bent handrails above the ladder, and the ladder bent excessively. The other side looks OK, at least to me.

Below is a photo of the Lionel No. 11127 Legacy from 2008, which is the one I have (this isn't my picture, though, and the colors are somewhat off in this photo). The ladders on this engine appear as prototype.

@oceandreams89 posted:

Regarding the color comparisons: I’m running the MTH Premier Daylight cars from a while back. My lighting isn’t the greatest right now but here is how the new 4459 tender color compares to the Premier baggage car at least. The MTH reds and oranges appear darker. I’m fine with it personally, but others might enjoy the comparison. I have the Church book as well, but never went so far to compare the color matching.

Thanks for posting this color comparison. I've seen the MTH cars before, and the colors, as you say, don't match the Lionel engines. They're darker, and flatter. It's especially noticeable with the darker orange/red color, from my perspective, anyway. The more tomato soup shade on the MTH cars and the significant difference with the Lionel engine can be clearly seen on your photo above showing the front end of the car next to the tender. It wouldn't bother some folks too much, and it's good you're fine with it, given that you already have the cars.

Presumably the MTH Daylight engines would match those cars, but that's not necessarily so. I've seen different models of MTH engines that have different shades of the colors. I'll be interested to see a color matchup between the new Legacy Daylights and the Lionel 18" aluminum cars, if someone would post pictures of those.

"Tomato soup" - That makes my day, for absolute accuracy about the MTH Daylight cars! I think I only have one which is not a Christmas Train LED car; it’s the non-prototypical full dome. (K-Line also made one but a full 21" long.) I never thought of them as soup, but they definitely are.

I'm in favor of anything that keeps SP Daylight in the news. On that score, perhaps I should mention that Scott Mann is making an SP 3/4 length dome car, in five different liveries including Daylight:

Before it starts an argument, I think that this is a brass HO model photo used by GGD and I would not necessarily expect the finished car to have the heavy green tint on the windows. Anyway, Scott really does his homework. (I wanted him to make the original SP-built shorter dome with 10 windows but he's opted for the later 12 window version that had more variations.)

I have a set of the Lionel cars from 2005 as well. 4 pack 29115 and the 2 pack 25416. They are still un run and sealed up in the boxes. (Have them for sale here) I wonder how they would match up with the new 4459. The “tomato soup” MTH comments have me wondering... 😂

You guys are making me self conscious about my Daylight colors now in my freezing cold garage loft substandard layout! Hot cup of “Tomato soup” up there sounds like a nice way to watch the trains going around, not color matching.  Maybe here in CT, NE Clam Chowder is more appropriate.  👍 Now you guys have me thinking I should color match up my new $1800 Steam Engine better. The Lionel sets I have just might.....

I never worried about the color match before that much.... “**** it”  😱  

Oceandream, apply the 3 foot rule. Does it look good to you from 3 feet away? If so, just run with it, you won’t notice the color difference while its cruising around your layout.
Try not to let us picky folks rain on your enjoyment of your set. Its an awesome locomotive and I think the cars look nice with it. Who cares if the red is off a bit? I’m guessing your not a hardcore Espee fanatic. There’s a few innacurate decoration issues I’ve noted with the new Lionel engines but I’m not going to let them stop me from having fun.

Ocean, go back and read your original post. You love this locomotive. It’s awesome!  The rest is just noise. Enjoy it on your wonderful layout with your son on the throttle!

I know guys thanks. I’m not that picky, and my layout isn’t anything special at all. Just fun with the boy which is the most important part. I apply the 3ft, 10ft, 20ft, 50ft rule to lots of things around here. 😀  I was starting to wonder if the new engine would look better dressed with the Lionel cars sitting over in the corner in their boxes is all. Probably would, but maybe not worth it.  

Todd

@Rider Sandman posted:

Ocean, go back and read your original post. You love this locomotive. It’s awesome!  The rest is just noise. Enjoy it on your wonderful layout with your son on the throttle!

I absolutely agree that you should just enjoy this locomotive - some of the rest of us are just chattering among ourselves as we are prone to do! Actually I was going to post more on the ladder issue but won’t, except that I’d guess one or both of the screw holes is in the wrong position and I’d be tempted to see if I could tap a new one . . .🤪

P.S. Many thanks to all who have posted photos including the color plates from the book.

@oceandreams89 posted:

I never worried about the color match before that much.... “**** it”  😱  

Don't worry about the color.  It's fine, IMHO.  I certainly think it works.

This discussion has been interesting b/c of the color patches that are available and other versions of this model that have been made by other manufacturers over the years.

What this model is NOT is a color failure....or anywhere close to that.  This is NOT a pink stripe on a N&W 611, hideous silver smoke box on a NYC Niagara, or neon green on a Great Northern Steamer.  These models are not remotely close to that ballpark or anywhere near that zip code.

@Berkshire President posted:

What this model is NOT is a color failure....or anywhere close to that.  This is NOT a pink stripe on a N&W 611, hideous silver smoke box on a NYC Niagara, or neon green on a Great Northern Steamer.  These models are not remotely close to that ballpark or anywhere near that zip code.

Them's fightin' words - I LIKE the glossy smokebox on my fantasy Grey Ghost #6001 Niagara. Also the (less) glossy one on the 2013 Daylight cab forward. Lionel knows how to do a fantasy silver smokebox.

And as long as all the rivets are in the right place, I don't care if they paint them in imaginary colors. 🤡😜

@Hancock52 posted:

Them's fightin' words - I LIKE the glossy smokebox on my fantasy Grey Ghost #6001 Niagara. Also the (less) glossy one on the 2013 Daylight cab forward. Lionel knows how to do a fantasy silver smokebox.

And as long as all the rivets are in the right place, I don't care if they paint them in imaginary colors. 🤡😜

If your model makes you happy, Mr. Hancock, that's all that matters.

Keep enjoying!!

One question about this new run of engines.... I have always had in the past a legacy module included in the box to easily program all the features of my engines. There was no legacy module in the box, so I programmed my remote manually. I think many features are missing. My remote and base are still v1.2  (I know I know, I’m not great about keeping up with the latest)  will upgrading to1.61 get me full control of the new 4459 without having to use Bluetooth?

@oceandreams89 posted:

One question about this new run of engines.... I have always had in the past a legacy module included in the box to easily program all the features of my engines. There was no legacy module in the box, so I programmed my remote manually. I think many features are missing. My remote and base are still v1.2  (I know I know, I’m not great about keeping up with the latest)  will upgrading to1.61 get me full control of the new 4459 without having to use Bluetooth?

Lionel no longer provides those handy "Legacy Modules" in order to quickly load your nice new model into the Cab-2 hand held. Cost savings. Other posters will explain how to put your model's "information" into your Cab-2.

@oceandreams89 posted:

One question about this new run of engines.... I have always had in the past a legacy module included in the box to easily program all the features of my engines. There was no legacy module in the box, so I programmed my remote manually. I think many features are missing. My remote and base are still v1.2  (I know I know, I’m not great about keeping up with the latest)  will upgrading to1.61 get me full control of the new 4459 without having to use Bluetooth?

Wow, your version number is well out of date, and I am sure to use the CAB2 with this engine you’ll need to upgrade. I think, based on what I know, that you will get full functionality via Bluetooth (this is what other people have reported), but you need the App. That is a simpler process than upgrading the CAB, which requires a Lionel WiFi and/or cables to connect to a PC. I have no recent experience of doing this as the versions have been at 1.6x for a while, but either someone like @MartyE can weigh in or you’ll find instructions by a forum search.

@Berkshire President posted:

If your model makes you happy, Mr. Hancock, that's all that matters.

Keep enjoying!!

Yes, they do, and I intend to keep enjoying. I’ll only throw this in as an illustration and not to provoke anybody. This is a comparison of the two shiny smoke boxes I mean:

Haha - nobody does these better than Lionel!

@Hancock52 posted:

Wow, your version number is well out of date, and I am sure to use the CAB2 with this engine you’ll need to upgrade. I think, based on what I know, that you will get full functionality via Bluetooth (this is what other people have reported), but you need the App. That is a simpler process than upgrading the CAB, which requires a Lionel WiFi and/or cables to connect to a PC. I have no recent experience of doing this as the versions have been at 1.6x for a while, but either someone like @MartyE can weigh in or you’ll find instructions by a forum search.

The best course of action in his case is finding someone with 1.6 Base and 1.61 Cab modules.  You have to be at least at 1.3 to be able to create your own modules.  I think Charlie Ro sells them.  The other option is to find a set of 1.3 or higher and then you can create your own but if your are going to find 1.3, might as well just get 1.6 Base and 1.61 Cab and be done.

@oceandreams89 posted:

One question about this new run of engines.... I have always had in the past a legacy module included in the box to easily program all the features of my engines. There was no legacy module in the box, so I programmed my remote manually. I think many features are missing. My remote and base are still v1.2  (I know I know, I’m not great about keeping up with the latest)  will upgrading to1.61 get me full control of the new 4459 without having to use Bluetooth?

Ocean, you don't really program in features as you mentioned, but rather, you program in the engine information (ENG ID, Engine Name and number, Cab Control, type of engine), I may be missing one, but that is about it. If Lionel did provide a module for your engine, you still would not be able to access all the cool features.

The reason you are "missing" features is because the Cab2 is not up to date, therefore, the Cab2 can't access the features. Marty and Hancocks advise above is really the answer, unless you simply just want to run the loco with limited access to the features - which, by the way, is just fine if that is how you want to operate your railroad.

Get the update, it is worth the effort and you will be glad you did.

Charlie

@Berkshire President posted:

This discussion has been interesting b/c of the color patches that are available and other versions of this model that have been made by other manufacturers over the years.

What this model is NOT is a color failure....or anywhere close to that. 

Yes, the colors on these new Vision Daylights seem pretty good (based on photos - I haven't seen the engines themselves).  It would be interesting to compare them side-by-side with the earlier Daylight locomotives made by Lionel and MTH, though, but the accuracy of the new engines' colors isn't the main question at this point.

The main question of interest to me is how well the colors of these new Vision Daylight engines match earlier renditions of the Daylight colors found on passenger cars that might be used with these engines, existing cars that people already own. (Personally, I might be interested in one of these new engines but only if they're a match for the Lionel 18" aluminum Daylight cars.)

Different persons will have different tolerances for how much color variation they can accept. Some will be more demanding about color match than others. What bothers some won't bother others. If a person doesn't mind a given amount of color variation and is satisfied, that's great. Keep on truckin'.

First glitch. Not 15 min run time total on the engine. I just started it up to run it a bit with the boy, and the smoke unit fan is squealing intermittently. How annoying. I turn off the smoke unit and the squeal stops. Tried a reset several times....no dice. Power off and back on....same, no change. Low med and high smoke is all the same. Plenty of output, just a fan squeal noise. Very noticeable. Anyone else?

I bought the dude a NYC 5452 Hudson for Christmas. Ran it around the layout and it stopped half way around. Started up again and it went a few more times around, then  stopped and started smoking, not in the right spot either. In my experience, whenever smoke comes out of places it isn’t supposed to, I can never seem get it back in again....

I brought it to my local dealer where I bought it, for repair way back on Dec 27th.... and it’s still gone. Apparently it had to go back to Lionel. That new Hudson was $1585 out the door. This one was $1830 shipped. That gets very old very fast when there are problems. These things are too expensive to have issues right away.

So far, my old Legacy 4436, 1225, and 844 have never given me any trouble for the most part. ( the 1225 I have only had a short time, but I had another for years and it was no problem) I have several others, the 3751, 611, 261.... they were all flawless, always. Maybe they are just getting too complicated.

@oceandreams89 posted:

First glitch. Not 15 min run time total on the engine. I just started it up to run it a bit with the boy, and the smoke unit fan is squealing intermittently. How annoying. I turn off the smoke unit and the squeal stops. Tried a reset several times....no dice. Power off and back on....same, no change. Low med and high smoke is all the same. Plenty of output, just a fan squeal noise. Very noticeable. Anyone else?

Not on mine but I have seen this with fan driven smoke units from Lionel and. Lesser extent MTH. The motor shaft bearing needs lubrication. To get to it, you have to open the engine and disassemble the fan chamber of the smoke unit.
I wonder if it will arise with any of mine. I haven’t run the smoke for more than 5-10 minutes because the wife doesn’t do well with the smoke smell and these engines pump it out.

Another cause of problems is simply too much smoke fluid - it gets from the chamber into the fan and housing and starts to stick on the moving parts. But usually this will come right if the unit is given some run time. Smoke fluid is not actually a great lubricant . . .