Lionel Legacy Powermaster (180) - Have I been sleeping again?

rdg,

Here are the model numbers:

  1.) LEGACY Powermaster 180, No. 6-37146 -- Notice that the manual date is 6/21 (brand new).  You can only use one PowerHouse; either one 135 or one 180.  Power selection switch must be set to match the rating of PH that is connected.

  2.) LEGACY Powermaster 360, No. 6-82883 -- You can use up to two PowerHouses but they each must have the same rating (use 2 x 135W with switch set to "135", or use 2 x 180W with switch set to "180").

Now, which do you need (relatively easy) and how do we find one (may be hard)?

Mike

The Legacy PowerMaster 180 only handles 180 watts maximum.  The Legacy PowerMaster 360 will handle up to 360 watts.  Nothing new here.

Here's the 180W model at ModelTrainStuff: https://www.modeltrainstuff.co...-legacy-powermaster/

Here's the 360 model there as well: https://www.modeltrainstuff.co...-legacy-powermaster/

Now the mystery is, why does the 180W model cost more???

So it looks like from Lionel Store that 180W Legacy Powermasters will be available in the fall at their catalog price. But now I really could use some expert help. Can or will Lionel TPC and Accessory Voltage Controllers (AVCs) have the same incompatibility issue as the ZW controller, which I understand, is 4 of the original TMCC Powermasters built into a ZW type housing? Or are TPCs and AVCs compatible with Cab 1-L? (The TPC and AVC get their commands from the serial output of the Command Base, I am pretty sure.) I have a pretty small layout and only a few Legacy locomotives. Does it make sense to just keep using older TMCC Cab 1 and Command Base stuff from the secondary market? I have 4 135W bricks powering the ZW controller and hate to see these go to waste, but I was only powering lights and accessories with it and liked the ability to set a fixed voltage and not have to address each circuit one at a time. 4 180 W Legacy Powermasters  or 2 360W Legacy Powermasters will cost over $300 and will have to be started individually each time I start the layout.  A refurbished original ZW will cost around $200. Used TPC and AVC sell from $100 - $200 each and need need connector cables from brick. Would a Powermaster Bridge solve the incompatibility with the Cab 1-L Command Base and ZW Controller since the chip is not available to fix the ZW Controller?

I would truly appreciate some recommendations.

Oh, one more question: With the advent of the Lionchief APP and Bluetooth control of Legacy engines, does the need for the Cab 1-L and command Base go away? Yes, I am very overwhelmed.

rdg,

The Base 1, Base 1L, and Base 2 all have a serial port connector for, as Lionel puts it, "limited system expansion".   You're correct that this port is the source for commands, over a wired cable, to the older TPCs and AVCs, which were second generation PowerMasters.  TPCs and AVCs are compatible with all three, via the cable and the serial port, so you can use a CAB-1, CAB-1L, or CAB-2 to control them.

They do not suffer from the software bug that afflicts the ZW-C, which at one time was fixable with a new chip, but which is now apparently no longer available.

As I understand it the PowerMaster Bridge is for use only with the original, first generation Lionel PM-1 PowerMaster, not TPC's or AVC's, or the third-generation PowerMasters 180 or 360.   It will not correct the operation of a misbehaving ZW-C; only a new chip will fix that.

You can re-use your PH 135's but realize that their circuit breakers are not as fast as more modern power sources like the PH 180.  You can add several possible components to overcome this, such as a 1.) quick-blow fuses, 2.) Lionel Direct Lockons, 3.) DCC Specialties' PSX1-AC's, or 4.) Fast common Circuit Breakers.  Each of these has positives, and most of them also have at least one negative.  As a result there are many threads in this forum providing suggestions on how to deal with this last topic.

Mike

Bless You, Mike! This is very helpful. I really did not want to have deal with continuing rising prices for Cab 1 and command bases (Like Freon for AC).  That is why I bought the Cab1-L. That eliminates the obsolescence issue. But frankly neither DCS nor Legacy were fun to me because I liked simpler operation. For now, I think my path forward is to use my TMCC set-up until it goes bad (either Cab-1 or base) and then switch to using my Cab 1-L, replacing my TPC with Legacy Powerhouses, and reassigning the TPC to powering my accessory circuits using the 135 W bricks I have, like old locomotives assigned to branch lines and yards.

Now if Lionel could add Quilling Whistle to the Lionchief App, I would be Happy as a clam at High Tide!

rdg,

Regarding the addition of the LionChief app and bluetooth control of engines under command control * consider this:

a.) CAB-2 with Base 2 currently provides the most detailed control of any Lionel (Legacy, TMCC, or LionChief+ or LionChief 2.0 product, but not plain LionChief product) or other TMCC product.

b.) CAB-1L with Base 2 or Base 1L accesses fewer features in the Legacy feature set but operates many of them.  It accesses all features in TMCC or LionChief 2.0 product, but not plain LionChief or LionChief+ product.

c.) Bluetooth control also accesses fewer features in the Legacy feature set and operates many of them, but only if the Legacy product has bluetooth control installed in it; since the beginning of Legacy most do not, but most new ones over the last several years do.  It accesses all features in LionChief+ or LionChief 2.0 product, but not plain LionChief product, again only if the corresponding product has bluetooth control installed in it.  Notice that TMCC is left out of this list.

d.) CAB-1 with Base 1 accesses even fewer features the Legacy feature set but operates some of them.  It accesses all features in TMCC, LionChief+ or LionChief 2.0 product, but not plain LionChief product.

e.) LionChief controller accesses no features the Legacy feature set and so operates none of them. Ditto for TMCC.  It accesses all features in LionChief, LionChief+ or LionChief 2.0 product though, as well as plain LionChief product.

Confusing?  Yes.  Workable?  Yes.  Which specific features for which method of control?  This seems to be largely dependent on the locomotive.  As far as I can tell there is no tried-and-true list that you can depend on before you buy.

Mike

* I have purposely left off running any of these in conventional mode because this summary is bad enough as it is.  You can always operate any of the above, other than plain LionChief, by varying the track voltage in the old-fashioned way and get the smallest number of features.

I've also purposely left off the LionChief App.  Until recently I've had no LionChief or bluetooth controllable products but I've just received a LionChief+ steam switcher and a LionChief 2.0 F3 set.  I have not used the app with either yet.  Additional comments may be coming soon.

@rdg_fan posted:

Bless You, Mike! This is very helpful. I really did not want to have deal with continuing rising prices for Cab 1 and command bases (Like Freon for AC).  That is why I bought the Cab1-L. That eliminates the obsolescence issue. But frankly neither DCS nor Legacy were fun to me because I liked simpler operation. For now, I think my path forward is to use my TMCC set-up until it goes bad (either Cab-1 or base) and then switch to using my Cab 1-L, replacing my TPC with Legacy Powerhouses, and reassigning the TPC to powering my accessory circuits using the 135 W bricks I have, like old locomotives assigned to branch lines and yards.

Now if Lionel could add Quilling Whistle to the Lionchief App, I would be Happy as a clam at High Tide!

Sound like a good plan to me.

Let us know how it turns out.

M.H.M.