LIONEL MAKES PUBLIC LEGACY AND WI-FI PROTOCOLS

Yeah, Jon Z has already said that was in the works in a thread a few weeks ago.  I want to know when it is released.

Somehow I doubt MTH/DCS will play

Sounds like another" win" for Mister Wolf.

Sure they will, you will now have full access to legacy features via the DCS handheld. Allan Miller, your in luck!

Sounds like another" win" for Mister Wolf

 

I know what you mean, I think I'm down to about 5, non-TMCC engines and can't get rid of them fast enough.

 

Honestly, I can think of only one MTH engine that I will keep regardless of OS. The rest, I will UP grade to TMCC or just sell.

 

It will be interesting to see how many new ideas get introduced.

 

Charlie

C'mon MTH, your turn! It's time for the:

MTH MAKES PUBLIC DCS PROTOCOLS thread!

 

Ed

Does anyone know if LEGACY,DCC and DCS are compatible to all work simultaneously on a Layout..?...

That's like saying "C'mon MTH, your turn, lose your competitive advantage.

 

 

Don't think you'll be seeing that happening.  Maybe offer an API but even then that gives up a certain degree of control.

 

Open source has its advantages, but in certain situations it's not always a blessing.

Doesn't surprise me as they're encouraging 3rd-party development in support of the system.

Sounds to me like a replay of VHS vs. Betamax. Lots if changes and improvements have been coming in power, control, and user interface. Which manufacturer's system will become the industry/ universal standard may depend on whichever one has more widespread use. Atlas and 3rd rail come to mind as users as well.

Just my speculation anyway....

LEGACY and DCS can work on the same layout because they propagate their command signals differently. Not sure about DCC. I understand that the DCC system propagates its signals in a similar way to DCS, but I don't have any direct experience with it.

 

We have been operating LEGACY/TMCC and DCS on the same layouts for years here at OGR.

 

Ed Boyle

If MTH will now release a new version of their Remote DCS full system, with Legacy control added, that would be perfect!  One remote to control Lionel and MTH!

Here's one of the reasons Lionel isn't concerned about others using handhelds or phones to control Lionel trains. They've just released further details about their LCS sensor track.  This is the next step in a truly integrated Legacy system of train control and detection.  If this is your cup of tea, you're going to need Lionel hardware to do a lot of things the system can do.

 

http://lionelllc.wordpress.com...ht-lcs-sensor-track/

 

Lionel is developing an integrated, evolutionary system of train control and detection that will simultaneously allow operation of both very simple (Lion Chief) and very complex (computer controlled, smart device adaptable) trains and layouts.  Since many of the features will not work unless you purchase Lionel sensor tracks, wi-fi adapter, software, etc., they actually want other developers to be creative about the use of this system.  Seems sensible to me, although I doubt I'll be setting up such a complex and highly functional system.

 

My understanding is the Hikels are developing an app that will control PS2/3 locos in command mode.  Presumably, either with or without a TIU, whatever the design is, this will create the ability of anyone with a compatible smart device to operate MTH locos. At most you'd need to buy a TIU.  You won't need the DCS remote.  Likewise, you'll need a Legacy or other compatible base to operate the Lionel system. 

 

There is minimal to no competitive advantage any longer to a completely closed system, if you're going to allow development of apps on smart devices.  In any case, I doubt PS2 and DCS provided MTH with any real competitive advantage.  You needed a TMCC command base or Legacy command base for the DCS handheld to control Lionel command locos. Likewise, you needed a DCS TIU (and handheld) to control MTH PS2/3 locos.  The DCS handheld operating both types of locos mostly made sense for those with primarily MTH locos.  Everyone else used the handheld that works for the loco they're operating.    I don't think either company is depending on command system sales to keep themselves in profits . 

I know the 'DCS' 'COMMANDER' has to be Switched between 'DCS' and 'DCC' it can`t be used for both at the same time for that Device... I think that 'LEGACY' or 'TMCC' are compatible with 'DCS' and 'DCC', but that 'DCS' is only compatible with 'LEGACY and TMCC' not 'DCC' ...

I was one of the first users of ps2 and added it to my layout right after it was introduced. I bought many MTH engines with proto 2 and had allot of fun. 

 

But once Lionel released legacy in 2007 my days with MTH were over. Their lack of improvement in sound and some other things did not sit well with me. I have few MTH engines left on my roster and all my steam engines are Lionel either legacy or RS5 and a few RS4 that are just incredible. 

 

Now with Lionel opening up the protocol will only make it better IMO. 

 

Do not take the above as a slam against MTH because it is not. MTH just has not kept up IMO. Time for them to up their game. 

I don't believe either Legacy or DCS are compatible with DCC on the same trackage. DCC is also incompatible with conventional control, whether for AC three rail or DC HO/N/Z/G.

DCs, Legacy, and TMCC together:  Yes

 

DCC:  No

"One hand-held to rule them all, and in the darkness bind them."

I think I'll stick to conventional.

I guess the obvious question that needs to be asked is those of us with Legacy engines that are not compatible will there be an upgrade path or process? It certainly would be nice for those of us with old er Legacy engines to upgrade them.

No one said Legacy is changing, so there is no reason to upgrade anything. This is for devices to talk to your legacy base to control your legacy engines. The only thing that may not be current on some Legacy engines is the IR sensor, not sure when that went across the line. I believe it  was on all but the earliest Vision Line engines then expanded to the non Vision engines later

 

Sadly they won't. A few people have found them, even Niel Young said they had them working with early Legacy devices, but no one wants to violate MTH's patent and end up in court. So far the Hikels are the only licensed third party MTH developers.

Chris,

 

There are a lot of Legacy engines that do not have the IR sensor; I own three.  I agree with Paul, it would be nice if they release an upgrade kit for those engines.

 

Ron

LIONEL, I believe, is considering a Car with the 'IR TRANSMITTER' on the bottom to work with other Engines, I`m sure it`s functions would be limited though..

Me, too.

 

I`ve read from Lionel that the 'LCS' will work with DCC and that they are open to App`s that could run both 'LEGACY' and DCC, I could be mistaken to what they meant though..

and I use my phone to make phone calls!

Before everyone jumps to unwarranted conclusions, why don't we all patiently wait until Lionel provides us with more detailed explanations of their release.  Questions relating to what Lionel is proposing to do should be directed to Lionel.  They are the one's who will provide the true answers to questions if they are able to at this time.

 

Steve, Lady and Tex

so a Legacy equipped engine means it has a LCS transmitter as well to be read by the sensor. What does MTH have that is equivalent to a track-sensor that reads the engine?

 

But why do you need a track sensor with DCS if the TIU is sending AND receiving engine signals through the track already.

MTH has a Bidirectional System which is patented... The Engine talks to the TIU and the TIU talks to the Engine... The LCS System is also Bidirectional between it`s Components through the PDI Cable, but LEGACY does not get information from the Engine through TRACKLINK... 

This will make things easery and open options for the modelrailroader.

would hope that Lionel & Mth would work to gether on one system

with outher companys as well.

there is no reason that thay could't both make the same system.

one for all.

This is excellent news for the hobby as a whole.

 

Now if Lionel would not narrow their software to iPad, that would be also be a huge improvement.  Hopefully a android version will follow on, if not, someone, or company will do it...

 

I guess they had to pick one tablet to be first...I'm sure tablets will follow down the road

.

What does MTH have that is equivalent to a track-sensor that reads the engine?

Unlike Legacy, every PS2 and PS3 engine has 2-way communications built-in.

 

But why do you need a track sensor with DCS if the TIU is sending AND receiving engine signals through the track already.

You don't.

 

LIONEL has partnered with 'BLUETRAIN' and He has an Android App available for sale on 'Google Play' right now... It say`s it works with the LCS WIFI MODULE or a 'BLUETOOTH' Adapter ...

Well, that's not necessarily true.  After a period of running, you really can't be sure exactly where the locomotive is, especially if someone throws a switch not controlled by the DCS system.  Then, actions based on the locomotive's position on the layout suddenly go astray.

 

You could do the trick with a passive sensor on the track and have the locomotive sense it, but I think the track position sensing would be a valuable addition to DCS.

 

I have been using the BLUETRAIN applications for some time, but it's currently only TMCC capable.

 

From the docs Lionel posted on the Legacy protocols:

 

* NOTE: only 0xFE commands may be sent to the base (and your command equipped locomotives) unless the minimum LCS equipment is installed, for example - the LCS SER2 or LCS WiFi adapter. 

Honestly, there is nothing other than software stopping MTH from doing the same thing. As said the DCS system already has two way communication, which is a big portion of the issue.  Add in block detection which could easily be done through the AIU and you will have engine location.  The interface is the last thing left.

 

Either way, Lionel still has to deliver this product.  It would be nice if I could actually get a legacy system, then I would purchase a legacy engine.

 

As for the people talking of dumping MTH, works for me, more on the market lowers prices.

I'm hoping this is similar to TMCC in that the command byte will be repeated on the internal serial interface to the RailSounds boards so I can decode it and use the extended functions to trigger events.

John,

After a period of running, you really can't be sure exactly where the locomotive is,

The only time that Legacy knows where an engine is, is when it's sitting on an LCS track. And that's only if the Legacy engine has a sensor.