LIONEL MAKES PUBLIC LEGACY AND WI-FI PROTOCOLS

With some encryption handshake no doubt.

 

LOL, well I just got more confused.

How is this any different than the information contained in the original TMCC manual that gave the access codes to the TMCC system. That is what allowed MTH to allow their remote to operate Lionel TMCC and Legacy engines with the DCS remote.

Which is my guess as to why you have to get the wifi or the other LCS module for the base to get TMCC2 commands instead of using the cable to send a signal on another pin.

Some technical details:

The Legacy system is more complex in that it has to transmit for both Legacy and TMCC locomotives on the track.   Since the 2 protocols must co-exist on the track, the serial input into the Legacy base often translates into multiple commands on the track.  And some commands are multiple byte sequences (up to 8) for a single operation.

 

Due to this complexity, we held off on allowing (Legacy) commands to be injected into the Legacy base, as it could have caused a lot of unpredictable results.  With the LCS system, we can accept TMCC and Legacy commands over the SER2 module and properly manage the queuing into the Legacy base so it is not overwhelmed. 

 

The Baud Rate is increased into the Legacy Base from 9600 to 115k to allow for command processing time, in addition to the queuing contained in each LCS module.  (the 2nd serial port interconnect to the TMCC BASE1 is still 9600, and is still dedicated to that use)

 

With all of this extra processing power on the LCS modules - we can open the protocol to Legacy and have the technology work as intended.  Additionally the WiFi module is quite able to handle the Legacy commands, and is a super-set of the serial based commands, with many customizable protocol options for expansion.

Let's keep this thread positive, lots of encouraging energy is happening that is not detailed on this forum.

 

Think about exactly what this accomplishes.  They have something similar to the freely available BLUETRAIN Android application to run TMCC locomotives.  They still need the TMCC or Legacy base, and of course the capability is only useful to run TMCC locomotives. 

 

Could MTH add Legacy capability and interface with the LCS?  Sure, given that the interface is published at this point.  Lionel still sells the Legacy locomotives, the Legacy, and the LCS components.  MTH adds code to the TIU/DCS remote to add the functions.  Doesn't sound like Lionel's getting hurt too bad with this arrangement.

 

Doesn't sound like Lionel's getting hurt too bad with this arrangement.

 

Correct. Basically the similar engines and cars produced by LIONEL, MTH and ATLAS look pretty much the same when viewed from space (or above my layout) . Given the rather small cosmetic changes in the product, the only thing that really distinguishes the players is their electronic technology.

 

So why should MTH give up the specs? No reason I can think of.

 

 

Forget the train automation aspect of this release and let's focus on the real reason Lionel is doing this - MONEY. Lionel is going after market share. At this point Lionel, and I am guessing every other train importer has figured this out, the money is not in selling hand held remotes but in selling trains. No longer is having the best command system a real advantage like it was 5 - 10 years ago. This has become clearer with every post that has a subject close to this - "At this point what can command systems do that they aren't already?" A glaring example of this was the reaction of Lionel's upcoming vision line offering giving us a depleted coal load. The engine might cause excitement because it is a vision line big boy, but innovation that led to depleting coal caused many to ask, "Who cares?"
By opening up the Legacy commands Lionel gives MTH the ability to run Legacy engines with an MTH handheld. At the end of the day does Lionel care? No. In fact that is the exact thing they are embracing. This strategy opens up the engine market to those with DCS who wouldn't buy Legacy engines because full functionality wasn't available before. This will no longer be the case.  Lionel is going after as many engines on as many layouts as possible.
Will we see some cool features that come from opening the legacy commands? Of course we will. But make no mistake about it this was a business decision.

I would like to think that all the manufacturers are trying to make intelligent business decisions.

 

x2, I doubt Lionel collected ideas from random people in the streets, pasted them all to a dart board then whatever one had the most hits won out.

 

I just want to reiterate for my part I believe this is good news and commend Lionel for this step.  I personally like all the competition and the different levels in O gauge which offers a little something for everyone at every level and for whatever their tastes may be.

 

I own a variety of manufacturers trains and intend to stay that way.  In fact the pilot system on the Lionel ES44AC's is what really has me leaning their direction on the product line.  I am glad to see that I can look at two identical representations of a Road and Engine and choose what I like best.

In addition to allowing developers to create products, having the spec available allows "software types" (like me and many others) to develop simple solutions to DCS configurations.

 

For example, on our modular layout, I would like kids to be able to hit a pushbutton to blow the horn/whistle.  Under DCS, the only way to blow the horn is with a DCS remote, and I don't want to hand over the remote to every kid that walks by. In DCS, the traditional DC offset horn and bell buttons don't work.

 

On the other hand, a laptop under the table, connected to some pushbuttons around the layout, would allow them to blow the horn - IF I KNEW WHAT CODE TO SEND FROM THE SERIAL PORT TO THE TIU...and

 

I would keep on buying MTH locos, DCS components, etc.  What do they have to lose? Hmmmm..... market share?

 

IMHO,

Ed

One suspects MTH doesn't provide similar access so they can still claim "You can control Legacy with the DCS remote but you can't control DCS with the Legacy remote!  DCS is more powerful!"

 

Now of course this makes about zero sense - you still need a TMCC/Legacy base for your DCS remote to control Lionel trains.  So it's all a marketing ploy.

 

But it is effective marketing :  just look at this response from page three of this thread:

 

I have actually been leaning towards MTH because with DCS, as I understand it, you can operate equipment from both MTH and Lionel.

FWIW, I know most of the train people are in the East and I'm in the Midwest, and I also know Lionel has some die hard loyal fans. Don't know about MTH?  However, I would guess at my LHS the sales of MTH probably out pace Lionel by 4-5 to 1 possibly even more. I would guess set sales may favor Lionel. It is also a small LHS, but the largest in our area within at least 100 miles or so. They just called, I have some pre-orders waiting to be picked up, so I will ask the owner when I go to get my new arrivals, probably on Friday. May not be the way it is everywhere else, but could be indicating something?

You can already do that without the need for DCS to go the open-source route.  All you need is a COM port sniffer device & software that can capture the data stream of each command, and use emulation software to "play back" the commands from a computer to the TIU using the same serial port.  In fact, there was a forum member (I think his forum handle was Skylark) that successfully did that by cobbling together some inexpensive hardware you can buy at Radio Shack or computer hardware stores and with some home-grown software.

 

You could also share your results with others if they want to do the same thing; just don't try to sell it for a profit and you'd be relatively safe.

Thanks for the info!

Maybe Lionel is showing MTH the path? As others have said previously, I would think it would be good for all to do as Lionel has done here. The are not giving up their electronics inventions, just a way to communicate with them.

 

I actually like both systems, and don't mind having 2 systems at all. I think each has it's own outstanding points. If someone can make an interface to communicate wth both from 1 device then all the better. Looks like a lot of new possibilities.

 

Also agree with others that the competition is good, look at all the products we have available to us today. I just hope it continues and the new stuff keeps coming our way. I will purchase as much as the wallet will allow.

 John, I was thinking the same thing.

 Just watched the video and was interested in the crane.

 Like so many people I already have a crane, Would it be possible to get a

 TMCC receiver board and have it to simple control functions of the crane ?

 

 Receiver board --> relay interface board ---> to crane ( eliminate button controller )

 

 Not knowing a lot about the TMCC boards would it be practical to do a home

brew TMCC gantry crane ?

 

 

 

Well, I'm very interested in this avenue as well, and I'm working on a TMCC solution, it would be great to expand it to Legacy!

 

I think this is a major positive step for Lionel.  They are about to repeat the great success they had with TMCC and relegate DCS to an isolated and shrinking share of the market.

 

I think Legacy licensing to other 3 rail manufacturers and Legacy upgrade kits are only a matter of time.

 

George

"You could also share your results with others if they want to do the same thing; just don't try to sell it for a profit and you'd be relatively safe."

 

John,

 

I was under the impression that others who have tried to make this info public received immediate correspondence from MTH's legal department suggesting that they do not do so.  I remember a post on the forum to that effect a long time ago.

 

Skylar developed a way to gather the codes and re-send them, but was careful to not disclose the codes, just explained how to capture them and resend them.

 

If you read some of the positive outcomes of Mike's (Skylar) work, I believe it's time for MTH to step up and share.

 

Another option I've thought about is an MTH-produced "black box" that takes simple USB/serial commands (like "Horn", "Fcoupler" or "Speed UP" and converts the simple language commands to the secret protocol that the TIU responds to.  MTH retains its property and users could buy the box as a DCS add-on, like an extra remote.  It would be an MTH product, and would connect via 4 conductor phone cable to any TIU. 

 

Simple!... and if I understand correctly, a lot like the wifi box that Lionel is creating (and will be making making money on)

 

Ed

 

 

From your lips to Lionel's ears.   I somehow don't think that Legacy updates are that close, but I've been wrong before.  ERR just updated it's sound product, if Legacy updates were around the corner, I doubt they would have done that.

 

I think what you're referring to was from a different poster, he was a software engineer (can't remember his name; it wasn't Skylar though) who actually was able to "crack" the DCS command set codes (I'll commend him on being able to do that; machine code which is what DCS was compiled with is not particularly a cakewalk to decompile) and he was willing to share that information with others as he felt that MTH's patents couldn't be protected via serial communication.  MTH's attorneys did contact him with a cease and desist, citing DMCA violations if he disclosed his findings.  Whether MTH really does have a legal leg to stand on in that regard is immaterial, this is more about whether or not you really want to go to the mattresses with the proverbial 800 pound gorilla in order to find out.  If MTH could legally wrangle without fear with the likes of an iron giant like Union Pacific on their own licensing program for example, what chance would the average Joe have? 

 

From what I read from Skylar's posts, he took his own findings, which did not involve any decompiling of DCS's command codes (merely record & playback the data packets) and presented it to MTH (either Andy or Mike, don't recall whom he contacted) and to the best of my knowledge no legal action was considered if he shared his findings with others since the DCS command set codes aren't revealed with his method in addition to not trying to sell his hardware & emulation software design for profit.

 

At any rate, Skylar did share his findings with whomever was interested without retribution (again to my knowledge).  So any ambitious coder can do it in the luxury of their own home if they want to, or one can go the easy route and go with Hikel's software & apps he's developing.  Either way, it's possible for you to do; no self-imposed constraints in the hopes that MTH will "open up" their architecture freely is required. 

It was SJCBulldog who supposedly cracked the codes and was supposedly threatened by MTH with legal actions.

 

Mike Hewitt (Skylar) developed the method of recording a command sequence from the remote and playing it back to the TIU via the handheld wired connection.

I have implemented this method and it works just fine once you have built a library of pre-recorded commands for particular engines.

That's right, now I remember his handle!

 

Electric Railroad's Crane Commander may be exactly what you're looking for.

 

>>>By opening up the Legacy commands Lionel gives MTH the ability to run Legacy engines with an MTH handheld. At the end of the day does Lionel care? No<<

 

Like the TMCC command base, I believe it would still require buying the legacy command system to have something to plug into the TIU to access the legacy commands, correct?

I think MTH & Lionel would be far better off jointly developing a common remote to be included with both systems.   It would access everything available from either or both companies provided you buy both their respective systems.

Joe

It would access everything available from either or both companies provided you buy both their respective systems.

 

This is why they (Lionel/MTH) are both allowing development of third party "apps" to do what you are asking for.  You use your phone or tablet and the software on that device talks to the wifi interfaces and allows you "universal" control assuming you have both bases and both companies remote interfaces (e.g. the WiFi LCS box from Lionel and whatever MTH is doing on their end).  Nobody has to worry about IP infringement and we (the consumers) can select the app we like/choose to support.  Should/could be win/win for everyone.

Ok... I promise not to beat this into the ground any more, BUT...one last comment.

 

Chuck,

 

The BIG difference is that Lionel allows John Q Customer to develop apps and programs (and even sell them), whereas MTH has granted the ability to do so to a selected few ONE.

 

I like to write software.  Not Apple Store-controlled apps, but PC programs.  I might even write something that others might want to use.  Almost everyone has access to an old PC or laptop that they could stuff under the layout and would run the programs. I'd probably write some TMCC/Legacy stuff but I only have one Legacy engine.

 

I do have lots of MTH engines (20+) and have some great ideas for some programs to control them.  Some as simple as the remote horn button described above, or an interface to a physical train control dashboard discussed in another thread... and I'm sure I'm not the only one out there.

 

Oops sorry, MTH won't provide the codes!

 

Ed

 

 

I have to agree with Ed there Chuck.  MTH really has only allow one outfit access to the interface, Lionel has published the specification for all to use.  I can't write an app for DCS even if I want to, since the specification isn't available, and I'll probably be harassed for patent infringement if I try to reverse engineer it.

 

Which is why I might just end up being a TMCC/Legacy only guy, because I know if I ever really want to go crazy and do higher level command stuff beyond the Cab handheld, I know I can do so with my TMCC engines.  Sure, I've seen the video of the stuff the one company is doing with MTH stuff, but I'm not the kind to pay someone to do it since the fun is in doing it myself.  Lionel has opened the door to allow me to do so, MTH has kept the door locked.

Does MTH even have  a wifi module out yet?  Maybe they will publish the information when there is a mechanism to allow a developer access without putting too much of their own IP at risk?  

 

I don't know how this will all shake out but I prefer to believe that the announcements of new hardware and publishing of codes is a positive thing that will allow for expansion of the hobby.

It is a positive thing Chuck, just a bit more positive with the Lionel publication.

 

>>>This is why they (Lionel/MTH) are both allowing development of third party "apps" to do what you are asking for.  You use your phone or tablet and the software on that device talks to the wifi interfaces and allows you "universal" control assuming you have both bases and both companies remote interfaces (e.g. the WiFi LCS box from Lionel and whatever MTH is doing on their end).<<

 

LOL, thanks Chuck for explaining it in simple language.  To me, besides a legacy controller, my Razr phone is still the newest electronic device I own.

Joe

So, what exactly do you need to get access to the DCS codes?

I'm guessing your last name has to be Hikel.

You hit the nail on the head. Guess I should look at the web site a little

more often. The price is also reasonable.

Thanks for the info....

 

 

No. Only thing reported so far is you will need one wifi access point per TIU

Somebody once hacked the TIU.

 

LOL several people already posted the name.

At first I thought this was a poor move on Lionel's part but after thinking about it I agree with others that this is a great business move. You only purchase a control system once, OK maybe you add additional remotes, but you purchase multiple engines.

>>> Lionel still sells the Legacy locomotives, the Legacy, and the LCS components.  MTH adds code to the TIU/DCS remote to add the functions.  Doesn't sound like Lionel's getting hurt too bad with this arrangement. <<