LIONEL MAKES PUBLIC LEGACY AND WI-FI PROTOCOLS

YO Mike, you listening?

Of course he's listening just like he did with TMCC. He's probably figuring out the DCS keystrokes for Legacy functions as we speak.  We haven't heard much from Barry either, he's gotta another book to write

Personally, I'd rather see manufacturers share tooling, then you could get whatever locomotive you want with whatever control/ sound system.

As a conventional operator seriously considering switching to some sort of command control system my only interest is in simply purchasing one system to operate as many different makes/models of trains as possible. To my way of thinking, more choice means more competition which means lower prices. What this announcement means to me is simply I’m going to continue to wait and see how this all shakes out.

I have actually been leaning towards MTH because with DCS, as I understand it, you can operate equipment from both MTH and Lionel. (I understand Lionel functions would be limited to TMCC...for now, which for me would be OK.) However a Lionel Legacy system will not operate MTH engines and unless MTH releases its protocols as Lionel is doing, that will not change. However with Lionel’s announcement they are hoping that the other manufacturers will incorporate Legacy functions into their equipment and leave MTH alone on an island. Whether or not that happens, who knows? For now, I’ll just continue to wait.

What would be the driving force for me would be what will Williams do? If they sign on, I’m in with Legacy.

Does this mean that Lionel has decided to simply give up the Legacy system?

Will other manufacturers be able to incorporate the Legacy command system in their engines?

When they licensed TMCC to Weaver, Atlas and K-Line along with a couple of other vendors like ERR, Train America and Digital Dynamics they receive a licensing fee.

When they came out with the Legacy CAB2 system the executives were adamant about not giving away their technology and vowed not to license it to any other competing company. I think that Jerry C. was quoted as saying the licensing of the TMCC system was a big mistake.

What made him and the others change their minds?

When we participated in the TMCC demo group after a couple of years we were strictly instructed to only run Lionel engines at the demos because Lionel wanted to sell more engines not just show an operating system. This seems to be a major reversal.

You still have to have a TMCC or Legacy base connected to the DCS system

Thanks for straightening me out. Well now I'm back to square one. Like I said, I want one system. I'll wait. It might be awhile.

I think you're reading a lot more than exists into the release of the interface protocol.  I really doubt that Lionel has any intention of abandoning the Legacy system, or allowing others to clone it without a license.  As to whether they intend to eventually license it to other makers, there's another question that only Lionel can answer.

The fact that they released the interface specification doesn't indicate they gave up any of their rights or patents on the Legacy technology.  You can obtain interface documentation for a host of products, that doesn't mean that you own all the rights to that product, only that you have the knowledge to interface to the product.  That's what is being provided here.

This announcement in no way insinuates that they are opening Legacy for everyone to use and licensing it out.  There is no freeware or open sourcing either.

The only thing being opened is the protocols for commands so you will still have to have both DCS and Legacy systems to operate both types of locomotives.  You will now be able to use a single controller for both.

This does help and is good to see, but don't try making more of it than what it is. Nowhere is it stated legacy boards and sound files will be available to purchase, so this is one area MTH is still ahead.

I also don't think asking MTH and Lionel to follow the same business model is realistic or helpful to the hobby.  They need to follow the one that works for them and keeps them in business, which is better for us all.  I would much rather have variety than conformity.

I can also state that coming from DCC and HO, there are many things that the standardized system lacks which Legacy and DCS give us.

The only thing I can see the infrared offering the average user is Loco feedback which DCS already gives you.  As stated block occupancy detection can be done much cheaper.  If you are looking for automation, it will be a good addition, but also limit you to fastrack.  Most layouts of the size and type that would benefit most from automation typically do not use fastrack.

While the announcement is great and exciting, I don't find it at the level of changing the entire hobby.

I'm sorry Allan, but I absolutely disagree with your opinion.

I am 40 yrs old and the major tipping point that took me from casual model railroader to rabid foamer was the introduction of RailSounds and TMCC in the 90's. I always liked model trains and had them since I was 4 yrs old, but my interested jumped exponentially when I was introduced to RS and TMCC.

I believe the next generation of model railroaders will have FAR more technical aptitude coming into this hobby. They will have a level of expectation that is far beyond what we expect today. My son is 7 and he has been using the iPad, DVR, DVD, computer for years now. Not only will they be interested by the gizmos, but I think they will be driven away if the gizmos don't exist.

I don't think there are many that would argue that Legacy is the most entertaining way to operate a model train. Add LCS to the open source mix and the sky is the limit. The next generation will be doing things with their trains that we can't even dream of right now. That's a good thing.

Think of the emergent technologies out there right now like Cloud computing, 3D printing, FPV video, Raspberry Pi, Battery power, UAV, etc... Once these start to converge in model railroading some very cool things will happen.

Lionel has scored a major PR victory here and MTH almost has to follow suit. If they don't they will lose ground in the PR battle IMHO.

The only thing I can see the infrared offering the average user is Loco feedback which DCS already gives you.  As stated block occupancy detection can be done much cheaper.  If you are looking for automation, it will be a good addition, but also limit you to fastrack.  Most layouts of the size and type that would benefit most from automation typically do not use fastrack.         ....................................     Jon Zahornacky has said that LIONEL is going to develop the 'LCS TRACK SENSOR' for other track systems ...

I also disagree with Alan with regard to his projection that digital advancements will not result in a net increase in toy train enthusiasts.  

In my experience there are many competitors for children's affection/attention and their parent's money.  How many outgrow toy trains because there are other, more interesting/engaging/fun toys to be had?  A tablet-enabled train environment will entice more children from the Digital Generation.  If children from the Digital Generation never get involved with trains as children, later in life the Digital Generation will not "return" when they have the financial ability to buy $1,000.00 scale engines and build room-sized layouts because they were never in the hobby in the first place.  The old timers returned to toy trains in the post war years because that is what they played with or desired to play with when they were younger.  I believe Lionel's digital advancements will lead to an increase in the overall number of toy train enthusiasts.  It will slow attrition and it will attract the thirty somethings as well.

While I agree that it takes a "imaginative creation" to create credible and fanciful environments to operate our trains in.  Contrary to Allan, I believe that digital advancements offer the potential to create and interact with our toy trains and our layouts to an unprecedented degree.  

I commend Lionel for its forward-thinking approach, and I look forward to the great things in store.

Improvements/enhancements for those enamored by the digital age in model railroading?  Probably yes!

 

More participants in the hobby in the future?  Not likely, since model railroading is about trains and railroading, along with the imaginative creation of credible or even fanciful environments for those trains to operate in.  Unless we stimulate more interest in those down-to-earth aspects of the hobby, my guess is all the gizmos in the world--now or in the future--will not bring increased numbers of participants into the world of model railroading.

Strategically, this makes sense.  Either MTH opens their system in a similar fashion (you still need to buy a TIU to operate PS2/3 so they lose nothing), or they risk being further marginalized into a niche player in the industry.  Sort of like Apple did with the Macintosh in its earlier years.  You couldn't run Windows programs on the Mac, so some people just said I'm sticking with Windows only.  The Mac lost ground until they opened the system, then closed it again . Lionel is the major "name" in the hobby and making your stuff incompatible with the major player is never a good long term strategy, IMO.

Since MTH is going to make it possible to operate PS2/3 locos using a smart phone or tablet, you don't need the DCS handheld in any case.  The control system wars are effectively over at this point.  Just a matter of time.  I think this is why Lionel's low cost Lion Chief Plus system is going to be a hit.  It isn't limited to DCS, Legacy or conventional layouts but can work on all three without interfering with the other control mechanisms.

It is about trains and railroading, but for me it was the command control systems and electronics that lured me back a few years ago. I'm in the older crowd though (north of 60), not sure about the younger ones, but it sure can't hurt.

Also after a 25-30 year hiatus, the product offerings, from all the manufacturers is amazing! Probably also part of my returning, but I think the modern electronics and controls was the clincher for me.

Sounds like the 'new' universal remote is going to be the iphone, ipad, or other device, and the younger kids now days are wizards with those things. They run circles around grampaw!  They might just find running trains with them is a hit?

Perhaps a relevant analogy would be to Legos and Legos Mindstorm?  Legos are cool, but for the technically adept and ambitious young person, the ability to engage with modern information based electronics is probably a positive. 

I'm inclined to agree that anything that makes trains and layouts work interactively with pervasive appliances like smart phones and tablets (not to mention computers ) is going to attract some younger folks who otherwise eventually would lose interest. 

After all, how many of us older folks were hooked through fixing, modifying and otherwise mucking about with the insides of trains, as opposed to just running them?  I gather quite a few of you are technically inclined!

DCS does not give you "location" feedback, an important difference.  With the LCS sensor track, I know exactly when that locomotive passes the track, and I can trigger events based on absolute knowledge of where my consist is.  With DCS, you can talk to the locomotive, but the locomotive doesn't have an absolute reference to where on the layout it is.

You can argue that you can calculate it based on scale MPH, but that's not absolute, and the longer you run, the farther off the position information is.

I think what John says in important, my understanding is that you can program DCS to do an action at a certain point, but unless you start at the same point each time, its not going to know where you start each time. (This applies to any recording whether it be Lionel or MTH) With the sensor it knows exactly where it is at, once the engine crosses it.

Yet now just about every kid has an Apple product.  The opening of the Mac platform about killed Apple.  It wasn't until Jobs came back and closed it again, and released the iMac that Apple took off.  I can see the same for MTH, by keeping it closed, they can control how everything works, and if they play their cards right, stay around for a very long time.  Right now almost all their locomotives are command, and they offer a much larger variety of locomotives.  The only way I see MTH ever being in trouble is if Lionel makes it possible for everyone else to have the Legacy system in their locomotives, and for cheap.  With that, you can buy a Legacy command system (Only available from Lionel of course.) and not worry if your Williams/Atlas/others (Maybe even home built engines!) command locomotives can't be controlled by the Legacy handheld, or compatible app.  But that's not what I'm reading here.  What I see is Lionel telling us how they issues commands so that others can build apps/remotes to control the Legacy locomotives, or even use the same commands to build their own command boards in locomotives so that they can receive these commands and be run by Legacy remotes.  Okay, maybe not the 2nd part of my statement as I haven't read the whole PDF yet, but they way they word the press release it almost sounds like that.

My point was for the average user.

I can get loco feedback from DCS all the time, it requires no specific point of passing on the track.  I visually watch my locos and can see where they are to sequence and event if I so choose.

This feature is helpful for automation, but it's doubtful most will automate their layouts as much of the fun comes from the hands on control.

Sound and Command control add more realism and control to a layout, this really doesn't.  I think there is a big difference there.

Again I think trying to link tablet interface with reaching the younger crowd is a mistake and completely short sighted.  Six years ago people could have said the same about having a play station controller to operate your trains.

The smart phone tablet craze is a technological blip in time, something will replace. Model railroads are more timeless, and that is what needs to be remembered when trying to enhance the experience and move into the future.

Everyone remember how well rail scope went over?

Model railroading is a different market, people seem to forget that.  The average joe looking at my trains get's excited about the smoke and sound, some even like the controls.  If I start going off about all the intricacies though most peoples eye's glaze over and they lose interest.

I think the real opportunity is for the company which figures out and implements the next level of realism into their train line which the majority will want.  Answer that and you will be a very wealthy person.

"I can see the same for MTH, by keeping it closed, they can control how everything works, and if they play their cards right, stay around for a very long time. "

Some combination of the simplest, most reliable and cheapest technology, accompanied by great marketing and brand recognition usually is sustaining.  Apple had the simplest to use, most reliable, best serviced technology with great marketing and brand recognition.  They were far from the cheapest.  I think I've just described Lionel.  I would say that if MTH wants to be anything other than a long term niche player at best in three rail O gauge, they need to make peace with consumers and Lionel on this subject.  With DCS and PS3 they don't possess the simplest, most reliable, best serviced technology, and they don't have great marketing or brand recognition.  They've got price and variety.  And price and simplicity currently favors TMCC/Legacy on upgrades to existing conventional locos.  Just my opinion.  Obviously it's their business and they can do what they think best .

I'm quite sure you're not alone--at least here in a cyber-forum--disagreeing with my opinion, but I firmly believe time will justify and confirm my comments and any predictions I may have made.  Let's agree to meet back here at this very spot in 10 years (Good Lord willing, of course) and take a look at where this segment of the hobby is then.  Should be quite interesting and very illuminating.

As for MTH having to "follow suit,"  I'm not so sure that is necessarily true.  My feeling is that MTH is more apt, in light of their diverse scale offerings and significant product diversity within those lines, to devote increased attention to the capabilities and future of DCC (an established and long-existing industry standard) than to worry overly much about how a new initiative by Lionel might affect them.  Those who want to measure the impact on O gauge, over time, would be be better advised to see what path Bachmann, Weaver, 3rd Rail, etc. elect to follow.  Again, that won't happen overnight, so stay tuned. 

By the way:  Good thread!

Allan,

I do agree that MTH should devote attention to the capabilities and future of DCC.  However, regardless of continual improvements within that O.S., if there is no end user then improvements will not matter.  The interface is critical to capturing and maintaining end users.  Smartphones and tablets are this generation's standard device.  To not play to that market would be small minded.  The smart devices in addition to the potential interactive capabilities they offer will help to grow this hobby's base, at worst it will reduce the exodus to other hobbies and it just may entice a few to try it out.

Your comparisons are rather amusing.  They show a lack of understanding of varying markets as well as a specific understanding of two individual and very different markets.

Apple has now been losing market share at a rapid pace, for two years solid.  Their original plan to integrate and market worked well, but marketing plans are always short term and they lacked the meat to create a sustainable plan.

As for MTH and Lionel, I would venture to guess that MTH in its diversity and market strategy is far more solid than Lionel and probably has much larger revenue.  The waves they have made into the largest segment of model RR (HO) have been enormous.

Personally, I think Allan is nailing it right on and believe that he probably has a lot better feel for the market than most modelers on this site.

I can guarantee you one thing in 10 years, teenagers won't know what an iphone is.  Just ask any current teenager if they remember the Motorola Star Tac, or even the Razer.

Neither company is opening up their control devices or locomotive hardware/software/firmware.  

All they are doing is allowing third part developers to create new interfaces which in theory would/should/could enhance the end user experience.  You will still need the command base/TIU and the hand held units for functions not covered by software (e.g. "Set" button on TMCC/Legacy).

Things you might see as a result of the new "apps".  

a) User configurable remote that use tablets or smart phones (aka you pick the buttons you want and put them where you want them)

b) Layout control software where the touch screen allows you to control the layout AND the trains running on it from anywhere.

c) other stuff that hasn't even come up, lighting, ambient sound, weather effects, ….

Maybe...maybe not.  Certainly the so-called "smart" technology won't have a negative impact on the hobby in any way I can imagine, but how much of a positive impact it has on actually growing this segment of the hobby is something I am not quite so sure of.  As I see it, the control system--ANY control system--is just one small part of the overall experience.  The focus has to be much broader if we're talking about the future of the hobby.

I have and use, Legacy/TMCC/DCS in O gauge, and had fairly extensive experience with Marklin Digital and with other HO and On30 DCC components.  I have an iMac at home, PC at the office, several laptops, iPhone, WiFi, Facebook account, etc., so I'm not completely unfamiliar with or adverse to the current technology and trends.  How much technological developments will do to actually sustain or grow the hobby--my primary interest and concern--is something I'm admittedly a bit more skeptical about.

>>>DCS does not give you "location" feedback, an important difference.  With the LCS sensor track, I know exactly when that locomotive passes the track, and I can trigger events based on absolute knowledge of where my consist is.<<

So with five separate loops to cover to get feedback, or whatever that is, has Lionel put a price on a sensor track?

I get the feeling "feedback" could get more expensive then its worth..   In the end I think I'd be much happier if they'd bring back & make standard whistle smoke.

Joe

Apple has now been losing market share at a rapid pace, for two years solid.

 Apple is loosing market share to all the other companies that develop hardware that use the Android operating system.

Android OS= simple, easy to develop, based on Linux, open-source

Sure, iphone and iOS may be forgotten 10 years from now but Linux wont be because it works with nearly every computer ever made and ever will be made.

"As for MTH and Lionel, I would venture to guess that MTH in its diversity and market strategy is far more solid than Lionel and probably has much larger revenue."

Then you would guess wrong, by my guess .  Lionel's revenues come heavily from set sales and brand licensing.  MTH is still a tiny player in the HO market.  No one knows for sure, but at the time of the bankruptcy/lawsuit, Lionel's annual revenues were twice MTH's and it seems likely that this difference may have increased rather than decreased.

By the way the judge who insisted on settling the MTH lawsuit against Lionel, Burton Lifland, just died at the age of 84.  Not relevant, but perhaps of interest to some.

Your whistle smoke, etc. makes one locomotive cost enough to equip those loops with a couple of sensors each.   Sure, it's going to be expensive if you get carried away, but so is the fancy stuff on the high-end locomotives and rolling stock!

"Apple is loosing market share to all the other companies that develop hardware that use the Android operating system."

I may not understand markets, but I do understand money. .  Apple's absolute sales and revenues continue to increase.  Market share isn't everything.  The installed base of iPhones and iPads dwarfs the current installed base of Android phones and tablets, particularly tablets.  It is only reasonable that when you "invent" something (the first smart phone that is easy to use for both email and web applications; the first tablet that is easy to use and fully functional), you charge premium prices and then lose market share as less expensive products follow your pathway. 

It's certainly possible that Google will continue to rise (along with Android), but that doesn't mean that Apple will disappear (along with the iPhone and iPad and Mac).  People continue to value Apple's far superior technical support, product reliability and perceived ease of use, their fabulous shopping experience at Apple stores, and will continue to pay a premium as long as these things hold true.

My analogy was simply that Lionel is the 800 pound gorilla in three rail O gauge for all sorts of reasons, and that MTH doesn't have a whizzier, better product, or brand name, much less the open structure of Linux.  If anything, Lionel is a combination of Google and Apple in that they have the whizzier technology, brand recognition, entry level dominance, etc.  As long as there are three rails, there will be Lionel is my guess, and they will dominate the industry in this small niche.

That lawsuit was actually quite some time ago (I believe it's at least 10 years back if not more) which in no way has bearing on current market status or revenues.  Obviously by your posts you love Lionel and hate Mike Wolff which is fine, but it has no bearing on any facts.

Furthermore your misunderstanding of MTH's progress into HO is even more out of whack.

Can't argue that.

Sorry but Apples revenues and profit have actually fallen along with their stock value.  Furthermore active android phones far outnumber active iphones but large margins.

Can we keep at least this thread on topic?

"

That lawsuit was actually quite some time ago (I believe it's at least 10 years back if not more) which in no way has bearing on current market status or revenues.  Obviously by your posts you love Lionel and hate Mike Wolff which is fine, but it has no bearing on any facts."

Nope, I'm strictly interested in reality.  I don't hate or love anyone who makes toys.  The lawsuit was settled about five years ago, give or take, not ten, speaking of facts.  Walk into 50 hobby shops and tell me how many are carrying large numbers of MTH sets and then how many are carrying large numbers of Lionel sets, preferably between October and January.  I know the answer.  The dominance of Lionel in sets is probably 10:1 or greater. At least that's been my experience throughout travels in the US.

"Furthermore your misunderstanding of MTH's progress into HO is even more out of whack."

My understanding is based upon the observation that none of the HO modelers around here buy MTH locos, and they prefer Athearn, Broadway Limited and other long standing manufacturers.  Also from speaking to hobby shop owners far and near,  the sales of MTH are still modest compared with long time vendors.  They may be doing very well financially in the HO market, but a high volume supplier they are not.  No one knows the details, but high end HO (and MTH is high end) is, and probably will remain a small market compared with the less expensive stuff.

And by the way, here's a recent (9 months ago) assessment by one technology observer of the relative positions of Android and iPhone (iPad is still way ahead of Android tablets in sales and profits):

So who is winning — iOS or Android?

You had to ask, huh?

On some level, it’s too crude a question to take very seriously. There are just too many ways to define “winning,” and neither platform leads in every area. But here’s the closest thing to an objective answer I can manage.

“Android if you’re talking about market share; iOS if you mean financial success. So far, this is a strikingly different market than the PC business back in the 1990s, when market share translated directly into financial success.”

Who do you think the babys puttin' her money on?

>>>Your whistle smoke, etc. makes one locomotive cost enough to equip those loops with a couple of sensors each.   Sure, it's going to be expensive if you get carried away, but so is the fancy stuff on the high-end locomotives and rolling stock!<<

What I think will happen is the wonderful  "feedback" I get from watching & listening to my SF Northern chuff its way around the layout today will probably far outweigh any amount of digital readout "feedback" sensor tracks may produce tomorrow.

Joe 

Get back on topic folks (toy train technologies and Lionel announcement), or I'll start giving this thread a bit of a haircut. 

I'm almost afraid to ask this but does open protocols translate to DCS having the ability in the future to control legacy commands?

Joe

Regarding what is required to interface, the Legacy Base has not one, but four I/O paths on the 9-pin serial connector.  The Base contains 2 2-channel serial chips.

When you connect a TMCC Base to the Legacy Base, the cable uses one of the three "new" channels while preserving access to pins 2 and 3 for external serial devices. 

I would guess that Lionel is using some of the remaining ports for their new items, and the protocol on those ports is customized to work with their new LCS add-ons.