Lionel MPC F3's?

That would have been from 1983, originally as part of the 20th Century Limited set.

Do any pics exist of 1) Lionel Hagerstown in the late 60's 2) Lionel Hillside late 60's 3) and Lionel corporate late 60's.  I always like seeing what places looked like at the end. Which pieces were made in Japan and do any exist?

The early MPC rolling stock had AAR trucks...were these from the left over parts bin at Hillside?  And the last 6464 Boxcars from Lionel Corp in 1969 had Bar-End trucks...were these also from the parts bin? And where were these 6464 cars assembled?

Well, for starters, you can't judge an entire era of Lionel production based on a single engine decades old that you bought from another owner. You have no idea what the real history of that engine is, although to you it appears new. Even if it were new, there is no logic in concluding that an imperfection in one engine warrants a generalization about thousands of engines made during a production period that lasted for years.

It's possible that you just got an engine with a very rare defect, or, more likely, that engine you got has a suspicious history, especially considering that not one but the armatures of both motors are allegedly bent.

Personally, I had a set of LTI Santa Fe Warbonnet engines years ago, no. 11711 from 1991, and it ran very well and for a long time. 

I was looking over this thread, with particular interest in  Todd's (PaperTRW) comments.
What a fountain of knowledge!

I think he could write a book.

I know that I would purchase a copy.

Todd was there, he knows. One of his favorite projects was the remake of the Wabash F3 set.

He used his own PW set as a guide for the new one. He told me they found the original die for the caboose.

Jim

Which caboose?

The brown SP type caboose that's in the Wabash freight set.

Haven't those dies been in continuous use since 1948, with many revisions & retooling?

In that case, you should talk to Joe or someone else at Grzyboski's and work something out with them about the engine.

I know in the past, at least sometimes, when they bought an item from someone for resale, they tested it first. 

Very true.......... but in this case, this ABA set has not been placed on the track as there is no wear marks on the wheels or roller pick ups. I already purchase the needed parts to repair or replace the defective parts.  Last weekend I installed the metal gears to replace the plastic gears.  This set is no longer original so no I will just fix it and keep it.  Lionel uses plastic gears since I think 1973 or 74 on the early MPC F-3's to this day. They just changed the color of the gears from white to black, WHY ? The metal gears was used on the last F-3 #2383 of the postwar period.  I had the 2383 set back in 1968.

the woman who loves the S.F.5011,2678,2003,200

Tiffany

Grzyboski's would have purchased that engine from someone else, so who knows what its history is? Engines can be briefly test-run on straight track and still appear to be unrun. Also, testing is often done using electrical clip-ons, and the engine isn't placed on track at all. So it is virtually impossible to say what the history is.

Regardless, I certainly would have contacted Grzyboski's about it at the time. They might have been able to provide some information about the engine, as well.

I have those same engines. I swapped the shells with some PWC F-3 chassis, because I run a command layout, so they now have TMCC, R/S, electrocouplers, directional lighting, cab interiors with crew, etc. I thought about the Legacy version when it came out, but didn't care for the black roof.

As I mentioned early in this thread, TM's 1970-1980 Guide is a must for covering the early MPC history. Not everything contained in there is correct, but it's the closest we'll likely get to documenting the time period, from many of the key people who lived it. Unfortunately, a large portion of the early players that transitioned the company to Michigan are no longer with us.

Bob Osterhoff's "Inside the Lionel Trains Fun Factory" is a must-read for any student of Lionel's manufacturing history. It predominantly focuses on the prewar and postwar time periods, but there is some post-1969 coverage.

There are also literally hundreds of other interesting tidbits that can be found by scouring other books, early train club publications, toy trade periodicals, model-kit magazines (MPC made quite the splash when they first hit the model kit market), General Mills corporate reports, and the like. I'm almost embarrassed by how large my library has become, but I can honestly say that I learn something new every time I go digging. 

Thanks, CW. I'm not sure a book will ever be in the cards from me, even though I've been fortunate to accumulate a lot of interesting material -- and stories -- from those years. Maybe someday the planets will align: there will be a demand for such a book in the marketplace, and I'll have the time to devote to it.

Great thread. Learning a ton.

Paper TRW, thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Hey, King James! Thanks for the shout-out, and I hope all is well. I'm sure we'll cross paths in the coming months. That 6-31711 1563W PWC Wabash F-3 set was one of my favorites, and I was quite proud with how it turned-out. I actually borrowed an original set from a friend to use as guidance, and it represented a turning-point in how the PWC items were developed in the early 2000's. There are lots of stories associated with that one, and yes, we uncovered the only remaining unmodified, original caboose tool during the summer of 2002 which I promptly scheduled for use in the Wabash Set. I think Ed Boyle did a Collector's Gallery on the reissue when it hit the marketplace, and I recall filling him on some of the details.   

Originally Posted by Jim 1939:

Originally Posted by ADCX Rob:

Yes and no. The SP-caboose story still hasn't been fully documented, but here's the short version (with a warning that I'm doing this from memory).

There are THREE individual SP-caboose tools, which I believe were created in 1947, 1949 and 1952, respectively. This was likely done for capacity reasons, but it's possible there's more to it that we haven't discovered yet. To make matters even more complicated, these tools contained multiple cavities, yielding even more variations of the 2357 diework. (I've seen some postwar guides attempt to put caboose variations in chronological order, but that's next to impossible as a caboose body could come from any one of these tools and cavities.)

In 1970, MPC heavily reworked two of the three tools, totalling four cavities. These changes include removing the end platforms from the molds, and allowing the caboose bodies to accept a new plastic frame and end rails. This modified caboose proved to be the workhorse of the 1970's, 1980's and early 1990's before a brand-new pseudo-SP, two-window style was released in 1994, largely due to the poor condition of the original tools. The vintage SP tooling was used again in the 1997-1998 time period, but because it had deteriorated so badly, one tool was shipped to China for refurbishment and production. (Lionel's total production shift offshore wouldn't occur for another 3-4 years.) I think I've said this before, but the folks at SandaKan did a wonderful job coaxing life out of old tooling.

In the early 2000's, there were two large "pushes" to ship tooling to China as part of the relocation efforts. The operations group handled most of what was immediately needed in the near term, and then I was given a two inch-thick list of Lionel's tooling to figure-out what else to send offshore, as part of the second wave of things that could be needed in the coming years. I literally took several days, going over the list line-by-line. I discovered MANY interesting things, but one of which was a caboose tool -- 002357T003A, I believe -- which didn't have any "parents" listed. This meant that it had never been assigned to any projects in Lionel's MRP II system (Manufacturing Resource Planning) that dated back to 1974 or so. I was intrigued, so I asked a project manager to have a bunch of tooling pulled for me in the summer of 2002, one of which was the 2357. After using a crane to remove the top half of the mold, I saw an unmodified 2357 cavity staring back at me. Bingo! Particularly interesting was the fact it was the cavity that failed back in the late 1940's, and required an extra "board" be added to the roofwalk before a more permanent repair could be made. It was clear where the top cavity of the tool had been inserted to perform the repair.

From there, it was easy to recreate the "deluxe" version of the 2357 caboose. We found the original stamped-metal frame tool as well as the prewar tool that produced the die-cast metal stack. The only thing we couldn't locate were the stamping tools to create the underframe's toolbox, but in the scheme of things, they were reasonably inexpensive to reproduce. I know that the Wabash F-3 set originally came with a 6357 without the toolbox underneath, but there was no way I was going to miss a prime opportunity to reintroduce the deluxe SP-caboose, which is why that set's 6357 has the toolbox.

Sorry if I've bored anyone to death, but that's the story of the rebirth of the original 2357 SP-caboose.

Regards,

Todd

All very interesting.  I do have these pieces with AAR Trucks.  The trucks look rough as the tooling was wearing out by this time.  I guess they did cast the trucks after 1970.  Also some late 60's pieces. Notice the odd cast wheels on the tankcar.

After what Lionel had done to their trains in the 60s I was happy to see any new signs of life. MPC started small and it took a long time to grow but I give them credit for saving Lionel Lines. First F3s started with single motors but over time they got better.

Todd there is no doubt we will be seeing each other soon, With a tear in my eye I can see that fall is upon us. Train shows galore, we are lucky to live where the hobby is very active.

Jim

I have a number of those early MPC cars with the AAR trucks as well.  I suspect that the tooling may not have been worn out per se, (the tooling was less than a decade old and molds used for plastics tend to last longer than those used for die-cast) but perhaps when Lionel modified it for the new needlepoint axles surfaces in the tooling got roughed up somewhat in the process, or perhaps it was an early production problem with the delrin plastic combined with the injection molding process that resulted in the trucks looking a bit rough and the oxidization on the trucks; usually the residue comes off with a shot of Pledge and a rag. 

Needless to say, I really wish they fixed that early problem with the plastic trucks and kept using those carryover postwar AAR trucks or used a new truck design similar to the ASF ride-control type type trucks LTI came out with after 1989 instead of those very obscure Symington-Wayne trucks.

The removal of detail parts like the portholes and front nose grab irons pre-dated MPC.  Lionel started this practice on the F3s (and other items) in the mid-1950s as toy train sales were starting to decline and they were trying to make their products cheaper to manufacture.

The F3s that were previously noted should have come equipped with horns as MPC still included those.  During the postwar period Lionel originally used a two-piece horn assembly, but during the aforementioned cost-cutting measures in the mid- late-50s they started using the same one-piece horns that were originally used on the postwar Alcos and Geeps and this along with the other detail-removals simply carried over to the MPC era, exception that MPC took the additional step of removing the molded-in front nose grills.

One can easily get those horns, either the one-piece or two-piece, from a reputable parts dealer such as Henning's Trains, "O'nly 3 Rail (Chuck Sartor), Olsen's Toy Train Parts, or Brasseur Electric Trains.

Your imagination, probably, or else you're looking at different types of Pullmors. There were two major kinds of Pullmor motors, commonly referred to as Type I and Type II, in use from the Postwar period through the MPC era into the 1990s. Even within those, there are some variations. There were other types of Pullmors in use in some engines during the very early Postwar period as well, before 1954, and some which were only found in certain engines made in the late 1940s.

The Type I is a separate motor and truck assembly, and the motor consists of a single - or double - wound field, depending on the E-unit type, surrounding an armature with a worm gear. The worm gear fits down into the top of the power truck, where it drives either a gear on the main drive axle, or internal spur gearing in the truck which transmits power to more then one geared axle. The motor is mounted to the trick via a single mounting screw and pivots in a keyhole-shaped opening in the frame. This drive system is a descendant of the system Lionel developed in 1954, and was used in MPC and later times in Lionel's "premium" diesels and electrics, including the F-3s, FMs, EP-5s, and GG-1s. Postwar Lionel used this motor on its Geeps as well, but MPC used the less expensive Type II for the majority, though not all, of its Geeps.

The Type II Pullmor motor is known as the integral truck and motor assembly (intended to differentiate it from the Type I). This was the most common motor in the Lionel product line in the MPC era, other than their "premium" engines. The Type II was originally developed during Lionel's downsizing period in 1955 in response to cost-cutting demands. In this system the motor field, drive gears and axle mounting frame (i.e., the main body of the truck) are all one piece. The spur gears are mounted on one side of this piece, driving geared wheels. This drive system rides in a large hole in the frame, suspended from spring-loaded bushings traveling in curved slots fore and aft of the large hole.

This information is from Greenberg's Guide, and refers to diesel engines. Pullmor engines used in Lionel's steam engines is a completely different subject. Many of the motors used by MPC in their steamers were pretty much the same as were used by Postwar Lionel.

It should be clear by now, based on this, and John Korling's comments about F-3s, that there were many crossovers between Postwar and MPC era Lionel. There was no big gate that dropped and all of a sudden everything changed with MPC. Among other things, many of the "cost-cutting" measures many folks associate with MPC were actually initiated by Lionel in the Postwar period.

I am curious as to the distinctive feature of late Bar-End trucks Todd was referring too.  And why did Lionel use passenger trucks on the 1982 Cop and Hobo and not the bar end trucks as used on Milk Cars.

They also used those same Timken passenger car trucks instead of the bar end trucks on the re-release of the Erie animated gondola car between 1980-1984, as well as the die-cast machinery car with transformer load back in 1980 and the same car (with girders) in 1981.

Ahh forgot about the others.  Sorry I meant Erie Gondola in my post.  I like the trucks on the car though...oddly.

I find it odd the Timken 6464 car did not have the Timken freight trucks. As for the Cop & Hobo, I never noticed the different trucks, thanks for pointing that out. I don't recall too many different powered or roller equipped trucks in those years. The 9308 Aquarium car shares trucks that era's lighted caboose. Shortly after, 82-83, it looks like the lighted caboose started to get the passenger trucks like the Cop & Hobo you mentioned. PaperTRW, the info you give is not boring in the least. I had the pleasure of speaking with Lionel's Chuck Horan ten or so years ago at Milwaukee's Trainfest. I was very interested to find out about the relocation from Mexico to Michigan and the 1983 Hudson. I, at that time, had just purchased a Odyssey System demonstrator. He was able to tell me a little about how those came to be.

It was long before that. The passenger trucks were used on the premium SSS Bay Window caboose starting in 1976 with the NP versions. This was to match the die-cast trucks of the rest of the rolling stock, which were the sprung "Standard-O" type, for which a roller assembly had not been developed yet for interior illumination. Several more followed over the years.

The 9307 Erie animated / cop-hobo gondola had the passenger trucks starting in 1979.

Wow, I totally missed that one. I see my Dad's 1978 Milwaukee Limited also has the die-cast passenger trucks on the caboose. I was looking at my SF FARR caboose from 1979 and some other FARR bay windows from the era, noticed the change in early 80s.

The 1983/84 Hudson was one of the first pieces made in Mt. Clemens upon return.  I am not sure about the Turbine from that year but I know the new SD's were made in Mexico.  I have the Aquarium car and it along with the Erie Gondola are made in USA.

According to what I have read, the late Lenny Dean was the driving force behind MPC reintroducing the F3 series. Lenny was one of the last NJ Lionel employees to have an office in NJ and he served as a consultant and marketing guy for General Mills. It was  Lenny who told the Model Products div that Lionel trains were now being purchased by collectors and were no longer children's toys. The re-introduction and evolution of the MPC F3's products can probably be credited to his doing.

I have read statements that the 8404 turbine was made in Mexico, and statements that is was made in the USA. Mine has all its packaging and paperwork. I believe those materials say it is made in the USA.

Regarding early MPC with Timken trucks:

As has already been posted, the trucks were modified to accept the needlepoint axles.
I'd have to look at one to be certain, I think they may have also been modified to use a plastic coupler locking arm.

Several early MPC cars are known to have come with postwar plastic trucks. I think the early 9150 Gulf tanker is one example.

I look for boxed MPC cars with Timken trucks. They are difficult enough to find to make looking for them interesting.

Another point regarding MPC's modification of the postwar AAR truck tooling to use the new needlepoint axle design, is that they also filled in the cavities more in the two simulated hollowed out ares of the truck sides.  Why they did this I don't know; I'm assuming that they felt with the delrin plastic that the postwar truck design needed more structural reinforcement.  When they came out with the Simington-Wayne trucks, they did have those cavities completely hollowed out so that you can see through them (like you can on real freight trucks) but these cavities were much smaller than those on the AAR (and other far more common type of roller bearing trucks).

So apart from the fast-angle wheels, new plastic uncoupling tab & locking arm, and the aforementioned more rough-looking surface, this is another key spotting feature to differentiate between the postwar and MPC AAR trucks.  

I am wondering what Todd meant about this... "Lastly, the late bar-end truck (from the mid-1960's through 1972) has a distinct identifying characteristic that I don't believe has been documented in the hobby guides. And while all the MPC-era cars that should have the die-cast trucks have that characteristic, the other supposedly-special cars with die-cast trucks do not, indicating that their trucks or chassis were swapped out sometime over the years."

Your Burlington F-3 set dates from 1980, which in my opinion, is one of the best years of MPC production.

The body detail question was covered earlier in this thread, but here's the info again:

1979: The return of the portholes and nose grabs.

1991: The return of the two-piece horns (I think this is what you meant!), side vents and screened roof vents.

1998: The return of the nose vents.

1999: The elimination of the bottom ridges.

Your set doesn't have the nose grabs because of the nose decal. The electronic horn was first issued in 1981, as was added to F-3 B-units. (They even made a kit to do this.) 

The Pullmor motors used in your set are essentially the same ones used in postwar production, starting in 1955.

I hope this helps - enjoy your set!

The AAR truck tooling was actually in use about 13 years (starting in 1957) before the MPC guys came in, so it's not completely out of the question that it could have been worn out. But I kind of agree with John, there might be more to it than that as the AAR trucks on 1969 production don't seem to be anywhere near as bad as the ones found in the early 1970's. While I doubt that it could have been screwed-up while making the modifications in the early 1970's (the outside surface of the sideframe is on a completely different tooling surface that likely wasn't touched to make the mods), but the potential use of a different plastic has some merit. Different plastics have different properties -- shrink rates being among them -- and that could also result in some of the truck's rough appearance from this time period. If I had to bet, it's probably a combination of all of the above.

As for the choice of the oddball Symington Wayne XL-70 trucks, the thoughts on selecting that particular design might be lost to time. I even tracked down the original Lionel designer of the truck, but he couldn't recall anything other than he used the material that someone gave him.

I think the poster was referring to operating horns, but between our two posts, I think we covered the bases!

The exact "whys" of a lot of decisions over the years are simply not known. But having been in a similar position myself, you don't have a lot of time to ponder the question, but you make the best decision with what you know, and then move on without doing a lot of looking back.

Not to be picky, but just to correct some dates: the 9308 Aquarium Car was first produced in 1981 (it used regular plastic trucks), and the 9307 Erie Animated Gondola was first made in 1980.

Besides the bay window caboose, don't forget the other "first use" of the die-cast passenger car truck in the 1970's: on the TCA Bicentennial Passenger Cars, also from 1976.

Bill, thanks for your comments! I've known Chuck since the mid-1990's -- he's a good guy, and lived through the entire MPC era as he started with MPC in the late 1960's before they acquired the train production. I was the product manager on those 18288 Odyssey Demonstrators, and remember that project well. If I recall correctly, there were eight different versions made.

And also that year, 9290 UP Operating Barrel Car.