Lionel new big boy pulling up three percent grade

Depends on how heavy the cars are, what kind of cars, metal? plastic? passenger? box cars? depends on if its straight or curves on the grade. I think it would be able to do it no problem regardless, if your pulling 16 21" passenger cars that are metal, ehhh one way to find out..

Hi it also depends of you're pulling up grade on tighter curves, the tighter the curve  the cars can pull off the track inward and cause a derailment on the curves!

Alan

@Ron Casamento posted:

Can the new Lionel big boy safely pull 16 cars up a three percent grade? Secondly if yes, how many cars could it pull up a three percent grade. The grade is about twelve feet long.

If we're talking about the Vision Line Big Boy, sixteen cars is a piece of cake unless they're filled with lead!  With the 2014 version of the Vision Line Big Boy, I had it pulling a mixed freight of 70 cars, including a long 2.5 percent grade on Harry Henning's basement layout, it didn't break a sweat.

Here's a smaller Legacy Mallet pulling 54 tank cars, and I have a 2.5% grade, it's also not even working hard.  I later added another 20 cars and it didn't change the running at all, just kept right on chugging.

Thanks everyone for your input. I have some smooth 0-72 curves, so I think I’m going forward with the 3 percent grade. Thanks Gunner for the cool video. I have pulled forty cars with my big boy, but that was on a flat run.

@Ron Casamento posted:

Thanks everyone for your input. I have some smooth 0-72 curves, so I think I’m going forward with the 3 percent grade. Thanks Gunner for the cool video. I have pulled forty cars with my big boy, but that was on a flat run.

Yep, on a flat run you can pull lots of cars.  However, the big articulated steam locomotives have the weight to pull a lot of rolling stock, even on mild inclines.  That Mallet ended up pulling around 70 cars around the same circuit without any issues. The limitation is typically the drive motor, and I've seen the plastic dogbone driveshaft fail as well.

I will confess, if I were inclined to really push the limits of my big steam, the ones that haven't already gotten a Pittman motor upgrade would get one before I really loaded them up.  I don't trust the crappy Canon motors to not cook my expensive RCMC boards.

When I do the Pittman upgrades, I'll likely tap @harmonyards for a flywheel mod to install one of these nice stainless driveshafts with real universals.  This one is one that Pat did for my Yellowbelly upgrade.  It's a smooth running upgrade!

Thanks Gunner

While I don't have a Lionel Big Boy, I do have a degree from the School of Hard Knocks...one class from which involves track grades and their disappointments...

...IOW, 'vertical' track transitions at the bottom and top of the grade.  They can be pretty feisty towards O3R steam engines with pointy pilots hovering mere millimeters above a current-carrying center rail (bottom transitions), or rigid frames bearing 4, 5,...or even 6! driving axles lifting the front couple of axles from the track while cresting a climb (top transitions) losing valuable traction when you need it most...or so I've learned.

Now, my simple understanding of the 1:1 realm of articulated steam locomotives is that they're designed for additional 'horizontal' flex to maintain best possible traction effort...which helps the 1:48 version thereof deal with O72 curves.

But, to the OP's question and track design, what, indeed, happens at the top and bottom vertical transitions of a 3%-in-12ft grade wrt an articulated engine...like the Big Boy??  Does it have 'enough' vertical flex to deal with grade transitions?

BTW, my own challenge in this realm was with an MTH 2-10-4 on a 2% grade, with approaching O72 curves top and bottom. 

KD

Thank you Dk, some great info, I appreciate that. I will check the clearance issue.👍👍

@dkdkrd posted:

While I don't have a Lionel Big Boy, I do have a degree from the School of Hard Knocks...one class from which involves track grades and their disappointments...

...IOW, 'vertical' track transitions at the bottom and top of the grade.  They can be pretty feisty towards O3R steam engines with pointy pilots hovering mere millimeters above a current-carrying center rail (bottom transitions) or rigid frames bearing 4, 5,...or even 6! driving axles (top transitions)...or so I've learned.

Now, my simple understanding of the 1:1 realm of articulated steam locomotives is that they're designed for additional 'horizontal' flex to maintain best possible traction effort...which helps the 1:48 version thereof deal with O72 curves.

But, to the OP's question and track design, what, indeed, happens at the top and bottom vertical transitions of a 3%-in-12ft grade wrt an articulated engine...like the Big Boy??  Does it have 'enough' vertical flex to deal with grade transitions?

BTW, my own challenge in this realm was with an MTH 2-10-4 on a 2% grade, with approaching O72 curves top and bottom. 

KD

Seconding this, I have three Lionmasters, including the Big Boy.  Beware the cowcatcher touching the center rail on an incline.  No matter whether the wheels can get enough traction up the hill, if that nose touches the center rail, you've got a short circuit on your hands!

Hi all. Just an update. I set up the first seven feet or so of the  three percent grade, to do a test run. I tested my new 2023 Big Boy and my 2010 vision line challenger. The cow catcher comes close to center rail but does not touch or short out. It only comes close in the first two or three inches of grade and then raises right back up to normal. As far as traction and cars pulling off the track on 0-72 curves. See Gunner John’s post of his video of his 2.5 percent grade, pulling 54 cars. His video is in this post a ways above. As you watch his video, he had no issues. If he can pull 54 cars up a 2.5 percent grade, I’m hoping I have no problems with my three percent grade. When I finish building my three percent grade, I will update you. I want to thank all of you for your help and feed back. Feel free to post any more comments.

The problem you're having with the pilot coming close to the center rail at the start of the grade is because your grade lacks vertical grade easements at the beginning and end of the grade.  For my grade you see the train going up, there is three feet of run that gradually transitions from level to the 2.5% grade before the steady grade.  This section is called an easement and allows the larger locomotives to transition to the grade without dragging the pilot.  At the top, the easement allows the locomotives with a longer wheelbase to transition to the level track without wheels lifting off the rails.  Easements also prevent the couplers from lifting and decoupling cars as you enter or exit the grade.

Thanks Gunner, that makes perfect sense. I will address that. Love all the input .

On our new club layout the steepest grade if I recall correctly is 3.125% and I regularly run 36 car reefer trains up and down that grade with big boys, challengers, 4-12-2, AC-12 ECT…

I’m not saying it’s necessary a good idea but everything takes it without missing a beat. Now a 12 21” car excursion train might make a 4-8-4 think twice about doing it 😅

here’s a video of a 2023 VL BB traversing that grade, I will say the easements make a huge difference I don’t think ours are terrible but there is one track my 4-12-2 doesn’t like

Thanks Zachariah, love the video.

@zhubl posted:

I will say the easements make a huge difference I don’t think ours are terrible but there is one track my 4-12-2 doesn’t like

I think the 4-12-2 doesn't like a lot of things.  I know they can sure find even a fairly small flaw in the trackwork!    I had a 3rd Rail 4-12-2 in for an upgrade and it managed to find a 1/8" dip in on an O72 curve of my short loops and derail about every 3rd time past it!  I actually hadn't noticed the dip before, and none of my other locomotives ever missed a beat there.

First, it is not a cow catcher. It is a pilot. The term cow catcher was out of use by 1900.

Secondly, you have to ease the vertical curves at the top and bottom of each grade. They are a form of a spiral curve, only in the vertical direction. You cannot go from level to a 3% grade in just a foot or two. If the pilot touches the center rail at the bottom of the grade, move the first support for the grade down-track a few more inches until the transition to the vertical curve is gradual enough so the pilot doesn't hit the rail.

You have to do the same thing at the top of the grade. Here again, you can't go from a 3% grade to level in just a foot or two. You'll have to ease that transition over 3 or 4 feet to make it work.

Thank you Rich,  I appreciate the feedback back. I will make sure that the grade transitions are gradual.👍😀

Theres sound advice in this thread, things Ive discovered myself over the last year. Grade easements are critical. Maybe another tip that hasn’t been mentioned is if the drop plate between the loco and tender keeps falling down check the grade easements. I have the latest Lionel VL BB running around my ceiling layout, so tight quarters, Ive relayed and tediously adjusted my track a dozen times.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I think the 4-12-2 doesn't like a lot of things.  I know they can sure find even a fairly small flaw in the trackwork!    I had a 3rd Rail 4-12-2 in for an upgrade and it managed to find a 1/8" dip in on an O72 curve of my short loops and derail about every 3rd time past it!  I actually hadn't noticed the dip before, and none of my other locomotives ever missed a beat there.

There is probably a reason the real thing didn't stray far from the straight and flat lines of the plains. I will say the latest AC-12 from Lionel I have has been way more finicky than the 4-12-2

Thanks Jim, I would not of thought about the drop plate between engine and tender. That’s a cool tip. Probably more so going down grade.

@Ron Casamento posted:

Thanks Jim, I would not of thought about the drop plate between engine and tender. That’s a cool tip. Probably more so going down grade.

Actually, where I've seen the drop plate fall is going up the grade.  As the locomotive tops the grade and the easement isn't sufficient, the angle between the tender and locomotive increases and the drop plate isn't supported on the tender lip and drops.

Gotcha Gunner

John,

How many of those 54 cars were actually on the grade? How many are on the flat and how many are going downgrade? It does make a difference!

@Big Jim posted:

John,

How many of those 54 cars were actually on the grade? How many are on the flat and how many are going downgrade? It does make a difference!

Well, the grade is 22 feet from start to finish.  The cars were mostly 10" total from coupler to coupler of the next car, that were a couple a bit shorter.  So at a given time that means that around 26 of them would be on the grade at one time.  For much of the time they were going up the grade, none would be coming down the grade.  The upper level has just about 30 feet of level track before starting down the grade.  Obviously, when the head of the train was going up the hill, no chance any of the cars were coming down the grade as the main level has considerably more level track, about 65 feet between the bottom of the incline coming down and the start of the incline going up.  So, in this scenario, much of the time the locomotive was pulling 26 cars on the grade, and the other 28 on level track.  Unless you have a very long grade, that's the situation most people would be in dealing with grades.

John, good stuff that’s a lot track!

@Ron Casamento posted:

John, good stuff that’s a lot track!

Well, it's actually modest when I look at many of the layouts I have visited.  However, I wanted one long mainline to make up large trains.  That itch was scratched, the mainline is 140 feet in a two-level folded dogbone.

HoopBeautiful layout,!’ looking forward to seeing it when close to being finished .

@Ron Casamento posted:

HoopBeautiful layout,!’ looking forward to seeing it when close to being finished .

If I live that long.

lol🤣

I've been to your place John @gunrunnerjohn, and that is one very impressive layout. This boy from "down under" is still in awe!!

And when you post a video of a long consist going up that incline, I can still visualize it, and it brings back fond memories.

Peter.....Buco Australia.

Peter, I certainly do hope you get back here one day.  I'd certainly love to visit Australia, I really have to give that more thought!