Lionel Postwar - reattaching brackets that were welded

I'll guess that in production welding was cheaper than riveting.  Unless you have the equipment and skills, I would just rivet the bracket, especially since you say the holes are there.

Dan: thank you.

Here is a little more information: I just checked a postwar #400 Budd car that came in the same lot. This one has a nice clean frame.
On this locomotive, the E-unit bracket is held by a single rivet, no welds. The horn bracket is held by a rivet and a single weld. (Maybe the weld is to prevent vibration?)

I wonder which method of attaching the bracket(s) came first.

Regardless, I think there is room to use a small Truss head screw, washer and nut to mount the horn bracket. This might give results closer to a weld because I think I can get a tighter joint with a screw.  The potential problem with a rivet that concerns me is the contact area between the rolled clinch and the bracket is much smaller that that of a screw with a washer and nut.

There isn't enough room to use a screw on the e-unit bracket. Since the 400 only has a single rivet there,  I guess I can use a rivet there without any glue or a weld. If I recall correctly, some other engines are made that way too,

By the way, the horn relay / battery bracket and all three lamp sockets are riveted to the frame.

I am still interested in what others think. No hurry to put my 404 back together.
Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

the easiest way I've made repairs like this is using JB Weld epoxy. sets up within 24 hours and is probably stronger than rivets, and is certainly strong enough for your purposes. 

Personally i would use a screw and JB weld smooth out like frosting a cake  as well to help dampen any vibration and doubt very much it would ever come loose.

I'm sure Charlie realizes it, but others should remember that the E-unit bracket provides the ground circuit for the reverse unit solenoid. Glues alone might insulate the bracket from the frame - not good.

Jim

My preference would be to weld the bracket if you have access to the equipment.  It can be tricky on lightweight metals to not burn the metal.  Second choice would be to thread the frame and the bracket for a screw.  I would use a star washer and nut on the inside.  I would tighten down the screw to get the threaded areas of the frame and bracket as tight as possible then apply the star washer and the nut to the topside.  I'm not intimately familiar with the BUDD units.  I had several.  I ran them long enough to match up a pair of 400/404 units as "equal" pullers and then boxed them up.  They've never seen the track since.  Sold the rest of them.  Probably should sell all of them since I never use them.

  A weld stops all ground connection issues by use of solid metal. But I prefer easier repairs, so screws would be my choice. No glue or JBW because that is adding an insulator to something needing a chassis ground. I'd drill and tap for a second screw first. Rivets are ok too, but again, dissassembly for repair is harder.

You can also dremel cut a tab and bend it to hold a hole or edge and stop twistng on a single attachment point. Many parts use this method already.

I'm not a fan of toothed washers because so many have failed on me. Nor split type lock washers. I always prefer the euro warped/wave washers or a plain flat hardened one (grd 8-12). Properly tourqed, I've had better luck with them. 

Riveted joints can be problematic for electrical continuity.  I would guess a previous owner, rather than the factory, welded the brackets.  This would have cured any electrical grounding problems that might have been occurring.

Screws, bolts & nuts, rivets, or welds are all suitable fixes, as long as you maintain good metal-to-metal contact.

Paul.

Thank you for all the comments and suggestions.

This morning I mounted the two brackets that were originally welded. (The welds were definitely done at the factory).

Horn bracket:

I was able to use a pan head 4-40 screw with an elastic lock nut for the horn bracket. There are no clearance issues underneath, nor under the horn itself.  The frame is factory upset around the bracket. It is nice and tight.

E-unit bracket:

Unfortunately there is almost no clearance between the bottom of the E-unit and the bracket, so using a screw / nut is out of the question. Plus the sheet metal bracket is too thin to tap.

I riveted the bracket in place as tightly as possible. The frame also has a factory upset by the bracket, but unlike the ones by the horn bracket, this one leaves a gap between the edge of the E-unit bracket and the upset.  So the e-unit bracket was easily twisted from side to side.

The frame had an extra hole punched very close to the bracket. There were just enough room to rivet a #4 lock washer next to the bracket. The lock washer actually touches the bracket, and arrests almost all of the twisting.

See photos below

I stopped working on the chassis because I am considering whether I should take the chassis to an automotive body shop and see whether they can spot weld the brackets. If I am going to do that, I will switch the horn bracket to being mounted with a rivet first. Might as well do both.




 

A spot welder at most body shops might be too large for the job. They aren't a small tool.(Chainsaw size, and two L shaped rods a few feet long to reach way past edges.)

However, a T.I.G. would fill those rivet holes very nicely. Even a MIG would if they are any good at welding. Some grinding/sanding/wirebrushing and it will look spotwelded, or disappear totally. (a good tig welder will leave it looking like a spot weld. Tig (tungsten inert gas) has EXCELLENT results in a skilled welders gloves. (You can weld shut a bullet hole in a beer can with tig)

The spot welder is a good idea plus there are two other solution.
You could use a undercut flat head machine screw and use the proper counter sink with the proper angle to got from the bracket down.
If you need the 
This screw head thickness is only 0.047" you have to measure the thickness of the bracket to see if it the same or a little more. Not that many folks know about this screw .

A normal flat head machine screw has the head angle going right to the screws thread requiring a bigger thickness of metal.
This would have a nut / washer on the bottom and not the top of the frame.
If you have just a little space you could use a thinner nut with out the locking type nut type and just use locktite.

If you are a purist what ever you do will not be original, just try to get a better job done than what Lionel would of done

You can see this better:

Thank you all for the additional comments.

I think I've seen undercut flat head screws while tinkering on something or other. I would not have thought to use them. I am going to try to remember that.

I just put the e-unit back on its bracket. The e-unit almost touches the bottom. I guess an index card could be slid between, but not much more.

That extra rivet wasn't working out that well. The bracket could still twist a bit.

So I came up with another solution.
The e-unit bracket has a large hole next to the hole for the mounting rivet.
I used a small stone in my Dremel to rough up and remove the finish from the frame under the hole.
Then I packed the hole tightly with a little "steel" putty from JB Weld.
Now that the putty is hard, the e-unit bracket is locked in place.

I took the extra rivet out.

What I have done in the past and will continue to do is get a metal pop rivet  and make sure you have at least  1/8 sticking out from the other side .. 

Pop rivet it in... Then put on a vise with a metal rod  right next to the rivet  you pop  in  Then  and hit the protruding other side  part down!  what you are doing is squashing it together..it will make both side look GREAT and flat as can be best part is it looks  it might of came from the factory that way .. Good luck ...Daniel

What I have done in the past and will continue to do is get a metal pop rivet  and make sure you have at least  1/8 sticking out from the other side ..

Thanks for the idea.

Glad I have a full shop, spot welder, MIG and TIG available as well as wood working area and metal forming tools. Any one close to me I would be happy to assist!

LOL! If I lived nearby, I'd certainly take you up on your kind offer.