Lionel's 2017 Volume 2 Catalog, again no new locomotive models

 With Lionel. My thought at this point. Anything new will be done as a hybrid in brass using an already existing chassis. With MTH. Wondering how much O gauge 3 rail as far as engines is sold nowadays. With their successful HO and European lines. It seems 3 rail O steam has taken a backseat as far as anything new. 

Dave_C posted:

 With Lionel. My thought at this point. Anything new will be done as a hybrid in brass using an already existing chassis. With MTH. Wondering how much O gauge 3 rail as far as engines is sold nowadays. With their successful HO and European lines. It seems 3 rail O steam has taken a backseat as far as anything new. 

Agreed, the cost of new tooling, you wont see any thing new.  Both will milk their existing tooling for everything there worth.  And with Lionel's new hybrid engine, it will be the only way you'll see never done before engines when it comes to steamers.

IDK where the original poster is coming from but the scale NW2 phase III is new. From the last Catalog, the SF steam hybrid is new as well as the tri-clopse SD60m is new! What more do you want from Lionel? 

Lionel' s second catalog for the year very rarely had new product listed. It almost always was the first Catalog of the new year!

Also WBB announced a G.E. 70 tonner

Atlas O had the F7

GGD is always announced new items- as of late it's the E5 and F3.

Now I do agree with the Original Poster about M.T.H. what have they done lately since the 44 tonner done several years ago?

"GGD is always announced new items- as of late it's the E5 and F3."

Announced, yes. Built? Well...I'm still waiting for my NYC R-2 electric, 2 years (?) now - still on the list, but no announcement of progress.

I would consider a new NYC L-2 Mohawk, and the just-announced DRGW L-105 Challenger (which I have actually asked them to consider making), but it seems sad to be such a - what? sucker? - to order 2 more big-buck locos when my 2-year-old reserved piece has not even been started. Or cancelled (I expect that).

Also, and I am serious, at my age would I ever see them anyway?  I'm afraid that I just have to bow out of this whole game. Yes, I have the money. It's not that.

I have been fairly pleased with the offerings of all the O-gauge/scale manufacturers. My biggest complaint is their decision  to go with the most common road names. I should say that occasionally they offer some of the smaller roads. And I do understand that smaller names have the interest of smaller numbers of potential buyers.

I thought the new selection of locomotives was OK. Some of it is not prototypical but interesting like the Milwaukee Road Hiawatha whatever engine. Two years from now we may all wish we had one when the secondary market goes through the roof. Bringing back a Northern 261 without whistle steam, too bad, have to pass on that. Now the Broadway limited, what a great train, right down to the huge selection of sleeper cars, which is prototypical, I found out after doing a little research. Overall not to bad.

It is very true that new tooling from MTH and maybe Lionel seems to be somewhat rare these days and while I could guess I don't presume to know the reasons for such.  I have thought about bringing this subject up a few times in the past when a topic was started about the current state and future of O Scale modeling but I am hesitant to add to or support a narrative that I find to be gloomy.  I miss the days of going through a new MTH catalog and seeing 3 or 4 engines with the "New Tooling" banner across the top.  I don't remember the last time I saw even one engine like that.

I would at least like to see more road names with the existing tooling.  I agree with TM Terry about the abundance of common road names of the biggest RRs.  I like the western lines but you have to really like UP, SP or AT&SF for there is little else in the catalogs.  In my opinion, MTH has pretty much ignored D&RGW steam except for a couple of steam engine types borrowed from other railroads (like the UP Challenger).   And why haven't they tooled up more of the USRA locomotive types that were used by many railroads?   I have also written here and to MTH to produce more of the smaller steam engine types (Ten Wheelers, Consolidations, Prairies, Moguls).  Except for some 0-6-0s and some starter set engines, there is very little out there.  Not everyone can afford to be buying the large Northerns and articulateds.

Oh well.  You can probably surmise that I am a little uneasy about the future of our hobby.

I was pretty impressed by Lionel's 2017 Volume 2 catalog in terms of breadth of "new" offerings based on existing tooling.  The economy is too tight, and the market is too super-saturated now for any importer to be spending big bucks on new tooling efforts -- although 3rd Rail seems to venture into that area carefully as long as they have sufficient orders to make the project profitable.  Most of the importers, however, are much better off RESPONSIBLY re-issuing products based on existing tooling for folks who may have missed out on earlier production runs -- especially if today's pseudo-standard features are incorporated into the re-issue.  Seems to be a safe bet all around, and a win-win for most enthusiasts.

David

The Lionel SD38, SD40 and SD45 are not new tooling and new locomotives for Lionel?

I like the new L&N E6 and that we can now get two powered A units w/sound. Wonder how they will compare with the 3rd Rail E6s however as that will be a tough act for Lionel to follow...

I doubt we'll see many more newly tooled locomotives going forward from L & M. Small batch boutique builders like 3rd Rail will be the future for obtaining never produced before items. The hard truth is that we're on the back end of the second golden age of O gauge trains. The market is shrinking and an ever increasing number of train collections will be hitting the market over the next few years. Prices on most older trains will continue to fall. 

The NORFOLK SOUTHERN specific SD60E was all new. 

The NORFOLK SOUTHERN specific ES44AC was all new. 

The SD60M is all new. 

The SD40 and SD38 in the last year and a half were all new. 

What are you talking about? 

Andrew

Lionel never had an SD45 in their line-up until the past year. 

Andrew

They offered Low-Nose and High-Nose GP30s for the first time in the past few years. 

Andrew

I thought the last Lionel catalog was pretty good, lots of good looking stuff.

My complaints are  that the prices are way too high. Yes I know they will be discounted. 

Those of us that may be into the lion chief plus is that the steam engines are not very close to looking like the real thing and they have been cheapened, i.e. Plastic gears. Also the diesels look like MPC products, very poor execution IMO. 

I would also like to see a medium priced product like railking scale, for now I can't buy anything from Lionel.

Dave

I do not Model the Milwaukee Road Railroad, however I have a GP30 Diesel and Caboose and a few cars. However, the S3 #261 Steamer must be a valued collectible do to the demand and interest shown since the latest Lionel catalog release. Yes, the price in 2010/2011 was $995, and the really nice PA 2-10-4  Legacy version with cylinder blow down being $1299... Yes, the S3 was a real deal, however, I use to own the PA 2-10-4 and the blow down did not work correctly....My thinking is, do to the higher pricing, I hope Lionel makes this engine perform much better, sounds, cylinder steam, and smoking also....That would justify the higher price. The Hiawatha version looks really nice...Beautifully pictured.

As far as the title of this thread goes, the Brass hybrid Sante Fe Heavy Mikado with all the nice piping details, steam whistle, the plate to the tender, with blue tooth capability, in my feelings is a new offering.  Also, Lionel has Offerred the F3's -E6's in new roads, and brought back the Famous Sante Fe War Bonnet series with desirable B Units, even one with bass sounds, that's new.  Also, I feel there will be new and better electronics inside all the engines offered, especially Blue tooth operation. So, I am happy to see the generous selection Lionel has offered us, the operators/collectors for the second half of 2017.  I feel, that there will be something for everyone, the pricing is what it is, we are not here to knock their price, we are here to share this fun hobby together. Some will buy, some will not, but in my opinion, value perceived is in the eye of the beholder...We should let folks/hobbiest enjoy their personal buying decisions.....I do agree that the Signature Catalog at the first of the year usually has the VisionLine Offerrings, which are to me, the most desirable products to own. Happy Railroading.

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

I was pretty impressed by Lionel's 2017 Volume 2 catalog in terms of breadth of "new" offerings based on existing tooling.  The economy is too tight, and the market is too super-saturated now for any importer to be spending big bucks on new tooling efforts -- although 3rd Rail seems to venture into that area carefully as long as they have sufficient orders to make the project profitable.  Most of the importers, however, are much better off RESPONSIBLY re-issuing products based on existing tooling for folks who may have missed out on earlier production runs -- especially if today's pseudo-standard features are incorporated into the re-issue.  Seems to be a safe bet all around, and a win-win for most enthusiasts.

As for the S-3 being offered without whistle steam... that is a MAJOR misstep considering the $700 price increase over 2011's $995 MSRP... or roughly $100 per year.  And for what?    Bluetooth?  No thank you.    I'll admit the Hiawatha fantasy paint scheme is tempting simply because it looks so cool.  And for that reason alone, it may be very popular even sans whistle steam.  Aside from that, I wouldn't give the other liveries of the new S-3 a second glance until post-delivery discounts on the BTO extra's kick in.

What I WANT to happen is for Lionel to take the profit hit for price-gouging this locomotive and then be forced to sell off inventory at a blow-out price.  But unfortunately, Lionel has successfully sidestepped that exposure nowadays by going BTO on big-ticket items.  So now the dealers and distributors are the ones who take the margin hit, if they order too many BTO extra's and subsequently need to move inventory with big discount sales.  Doesn't seem fair, but that's between Lionel and its dealer network.  And they're presumably all big boys and girls who understand the shifting landscape.

David

Lionel's Brian Kunkle has already posted that it may be doubtful they made much money on the the 2011 issue of the S-3's.  As I remember (and I have one) - they were  announced, delivered, and gone, before most folks could blink.  What that pricing was all about is beyond me, but in retrospect, I think Brian has it right.

SURFLINER posted:

...

Lionel's Brian Kunkle has already posted that it may be doubtful they made much money on the the 2011 issue of the S-3's.  As I remember (and I have one) - they were  announced, delivered, and gone, before most folks could blink.  What that pricing was all about is beyond me, but in retrospect, I think Brian has it right.

The reality is none of us here knows what happened with the original S-3.  Even Ryan Kunkle may not know unless he were intimately involved with the overseas dealings on that project back in 2011.  Was it priced in error?  Possible... but highly unlikely.  I'm more inclined to believe the S-3 was bundled into a set of factory production runs with other products at the time.  And for some strange reason, the cost to produce the original S-3 was lower than other similar products of the day. 

Do companies sometimes release products that do NOT generate huge profits directly?  Yes, but those cases are extremely rare -- flops notwithstanding.  And when it does happen by design, it's often done with a cutting edge "statement product" where a company wants to establish itself in an otherwise competitive yet lucrative marketplace.  For example, back in the 1990's Sony wanted to make a statement in the aftermarket car-sound community.  So they released their XES Mobile ES series of car sound components (head units, signal processors, cross-overs, amplifiers, CD changers, etc...).  The XES line-up was built with NASA-like components.  And when you drove or rode in a car with an XES system installed, it was like being right there in the recording studio with the artist.  An XES system often set car enthusiasts back $5K or more easy (including custom installation)... which was a good chunk of change back in the 1990's.  Industry insiders often admitted Sony probably didn't make tons of profit from the XES systems alone, BUT it established Sony's Mobile ES brand as a top contender among serious autosound enthusiasts and ushered in MANY good years for Sony's regular Mobile ES line-up (i.e., the non-XES components).

Was Lionel's original S-3 this kind of big "statement product" introducing new, exciting technology?  I don't think so.  Hence, my belief that we as consumers were simply the lucky beneficiaries of Lionel getting a great deal from its factory for whatever conditions were in play at the time the S-3 was built.  More than likely, only Lionel's S-3 product manager at the time knows the real deal though.  Then again, Lionel's former CEO Jerry Calabrese might be able to shed some light as well.  It would certainly make for some interesting trivia!!!

Anyway, that's my story... and I'm sticking to it. 

David

The PRR Texas was in the same catalog, same features, minus the kinetic draw bar but for some strange reason was price more in line with Lionel pricing at the time. $1299. Yet the S-3 was priced at $899. More bang for the buck. 

I have little doubt the S-3 price point was incorrect given the pricing of other locomotives in that era but I don't suspect the sinister plot that some do. I feel the current offering of the S-3 price has been corrected based on again similar locomotives in the same catalog. Then again I have no inside information and don't pretend to know how to price a locomotive to keep a company in business. 

The double cost from last issue to now is in my mind reflects a correction plus a normal increase. My opinion. 

Speaking of the Lionel Milwaukee Road S3, I saw one on eBay this morning. At this point, I thing it is a very good price on an S3 compared to what the new on will cost. I know you can't post eBay links, but it was listed as:

Lionel Legacy 6-11229 Milwaukee Road S3 #261 Steam Engine Locomotive 4-8-4

The listing it at $862 right now.

Some one else has been trying to sell one for a few months now on there for $2300.

My other feeling is that unless Lionel and or MTH decide to invest in some new locomotive tooling soon the interest in our hobby will continue to suffer as it is doing now. My local train store owner said that this past year has been the worst he has had and he keeps a full stock of just about everything. I have made several suggestions as to locomotive models that have not been produced in three rail O gauge but no response from either of them.

ed new haven line posted:

My other feeling is that unless Lionel and or MTH decide to invest in some new locomotive tooling soon the interest in our hobby will continue to suffer as it is doing now. My local train store owner said that this past year has been the worst he has had and he keeps a full stock of just about everything. I have made several suggestions as to locomotive models that have not been produced in three rail O gauge but no response from either of them.

I know sales are slowing down due to a decrease in the number of buyers. My LHS used to have a dozen or so "consistent and reliable" O gauge customers. Now he's down to three.Two are not in good health and haven't purchased much this year. I am his remaining active O gauge customer and I've cut back on new item purchases this year. He's seeing a slowdown in model railroading overall. 

Consider that in dollar volume, Lionel's sales are likely predominately in sets, LionChief Plus locomotives and rolling stock.  High end locomotives probably are a significant but much smaller proportion of their sales.  In considering the medium to long term, sets and follow up sales of track, locomotives and rolling stock to new customers and/or beginners may be a much better return on investment, as well as priming the pump for the future. 

There's certainly no shortage of Lionel locomotive tooling the last five years, particularly compared with close to zero from Williams, Atlas and MTH.  3rd Rail is a much smaller volume brass importer, not catering to those who need rolling stock, track, transformers, etc.  Basically a boutique business, not a full line supplier.  Atlas hasn't exactly been a provider of new tooling and they cater almost exclusively to the established scale modeler, although they do make rolling stock and track, unlike 3rd Rail. 

This dearth of new tooling from everyone but Lionel tells us a lot about the market for higher end products at present.  In fact, I'm a bit surprised Lionel continues to cater to the high end as well as they do in this market, with lots of new tooling of various sorts over the last five-ten years. They have obviously found a way to make a profit on runs of 200-500 items, whereas they never did this before, with rare exception. Anything under 1,000 was a non-starter in the past according to some sources.  I don't personally find this a problem since I'm not buyer of high end locomotives these days.  But I don't see the situation as being particularly dire, given the plethora of newly tooled stuff in the recent past.

ed new haven line posted:

I am not complaining that is but it has been several years either Lionel or for that matter MTH has introduced a totally new locomotive model.

@ed new haven line Normally I do not get involved in these kinds of topics, but your premise is blatantly not true. Lionel has produced an all new tooling NW2 and several SD-40-something variations that are new to the line. While not all new "tooling", the recent addition of a brass hybrid locomotive shows lionel has new options to create unique models. Additionally there was new tooling for body shells for two traditional sized Geep diesel variations, a level of attention to detail not usually given to traditional seized models. Most o gauge firms wouldn't differentiate between different low hood geep models for what is essentially a minor variation when it isn't a super detailed model to begin with.

MTH also introduced new tooling for two 44-tonner variations.

I look at it this way.    If you are not happy with their offerings, don't buy them.   Let the stock sit on the shelves.    Lionel and MTH will then do research studies and realize they need to offer new products.    As mentioned in other post there have been a few new tooling items but not much it seems.

If'n you poor folks want to truly experience what nothing new is like, you really should try S Scale...

Rusty (30+ years in S)

I want it all and I want it now!! 

Lionel's 2017 Volume 2 Catalog, again no new locomotive models.  Good!

 MTH will have to put out something that they didn't copy from Lionel this time around!

 Awww come on!  The Reading T1 from last year was all new......except for the trailing truck.......I think.....

Just for Your thinking, HONDA, Japanese/American, has Accord Model changes, re-design every 5 years, Civic, CRV, Fit, the same; HONDA Pilot, Odyssey, Ridgeline, and HRV on 6 year Model changes...Everyone looks forward to these changes with high enthusiasm, and that's how we, Toy Train Enthusiast, look at VisionLine Engines and cars, with High Enthusiasm.... Now, HONDA changes each model, every year, with different electronic packages, although the exterior stays almost the same. So, Lionel may bring back similar engines, but the inside electronics are upgraded. I say, new models are really expensive....We should be Happy....Thank You Lionel, you are Leading the Way....nuff sayd.

I thought the new catalog had allot of great items, not allot of new items. No mfg. can offer new items every year.

Tooling is very expensive but yet with every catalog there are people who complain and moan over the lack of new items in the catalog. As stated above there have been new items catalogued in the past few years. 

I just ditto R. Halls..the hobby seems to have gone from boom to bust in the short time l returned to it, during the Weaver, K-Line, and Williams expansion. I whine after the smaller stuff, but have little hope that other than bigger ticket redos, from the most popular railroads in the most popular areas will be forthcoming. Any smaller road steam era cars in this catalog? I sent in my order for one of the new Upper Michigan cars from the club.

Here's a thought.....maybe the manufactures have given up on tooling NEW items and are working on the delivery of the past catalogs items........LOL

Maybe next year will bring some new Lionmaster Big Boys.

Rusty Traque posted:

If'n you poor folks want to truly experience what nothing new is like, you really should try S Scale...

Rusty (30+ years in S)

Or O-gauge Marx.  

With the cost of new tooling and the unrest overseas, I'd be very reluctant to invest large amounts of money over there right now.

Maybe eBay is altering the enthusiasm for new $2000 locomotives?

I may be in the minority, which is just fine, but when a new catalog is about to come out my excitement stems from "Will there be a model of a locomotive I saw frequently in my hometown?" - or whatever model you hope to find from wherever, in your favorite railroad scheme.  Does not matter as much to me if it's an existing model or new tooling.  It's about good memories brought back to life.

I have to echo and agree with what IC fan said above.

Especially in regards to early diesel production, there are many road names/color schemes that have not been done.

In Lionel’s case, (and 3^rd rail recently) the model of the EMD E6 was older, but was never done in “my” road name. This year both have announced models in C&NW and IC, both I want, but can’t afford.

In my mind, these offerings are far more important than new tooling.

Charlie