Lionel's lionchief system

This one is not a LionChief+. Good smoke(puffer), decent sounds and chuff. It will run on DC or AC. It should be a good puller on AC.

I am not sure if they have the sounds correct. It's a good looking engine.

The LC system is nice. Hand someone the remote and they can run a train.

if the pilot truck starts picking switch points and derailing, just widen the wheel gauging a little.

Although I have Legacy and DCS, I bought my first LC+ locomotive, the Camelback.  It's a pretty nice little locomotive, and is surprisingly well detailed and runs great.  The LC+ is a significant step up from the LC stuff, they have better sounds, electrocoupler, fan driven smoke, and cruise control.  I think my biggest gripe is they put a nice looking backup light on it and didn't actually light it.

For me, it was about running the trains, not trying to figure out how to run them. I have two lionchief sets. And just getting into it recently, I'm very happy with the simplicity and quality of liochief. I do look forward to buying a lionchief plus soon. Lionel hit a homerun here with this product line. And I believe there's more to come with the development of lionchief plus in the future. I'm a Lionel happy customer for life.

Definitely consider Lion Chief Plus. You can run trains via the remote OR conventionally.

For the price point, very nice looking trains, decent sounds, excellent speed control and smoke. And they are now offered in a variety of steam locos and diesels. The first of the Rectifier Electrics due in December.

I have a LC RTR steamer, a LC+ GP7 diesel, and a LC+Mikado steamer.   There have been a few issues.  The GP7 lost one of the cab screws, and then proceeded to pick it up in the drive mechanism ...  It was just a couple days old, sent back to retialer, and replaced with a new one.  The LC+ Mikado, well, let's just say it was haunted.   After several trips back to the mothership it was replaced with a new one, and it has been flawless.  I would like to say the earned grade has been an A, but B+ is probably more accurate.  Both retailer and then LIonel made it right, though.

I love the simplicity.  Each has enough detail and features for me.  They have enough power.  When I got back into O scale in December I thought about doing Legacy or DCS, but the extra costs of the equipment, complications of setting up and running, etc., just didn't seem worth it to me at the time.  Maybe down the road...  Most importantly, my three year old grandson can grab a throttle and just have fun running the trains with me.

So, I am hoping Santa might find a way to deliver one of the LC+ Santa Fe FT sets to me this Christmas.   Pretty sure a Thomas the train will be there for my little co-engineer.

Wow! What a GREAT Christmas in your home!!

The big product and price gap between a starter set loco and a full-featured Legacy loco has been a sore spot for me since I got back into the hobby. It steered me away from Lionel and toward Williams for a good while. Where the heck were the $200-$300 locomotives?

The LC+ engines I've purchased make me feel like someone at Lionel finally decided to address that gap, and they've done so quite successfully, from my perspective.  I had anticipated tossing the remote aside and running them conventionally, but I actually really enjoy it.  No complaints here!

Is there a Lion Chief+ Polar Express set?

One great advantage of the LionChief and LionChief Plus locos is that they can operate in both command and conventional environments with independent control of a loco, no additional equipment needed.  In essence they are command control locos that are relatively easy to operate in a conventional environment, with no extra equipment, since they come with the remote.  They are also fully compatible with all other command control layouts. 

You can buy two sets or locos and have two independently controlled locos on the same layout without sinking $300 into an additional command system. This is the entry level and transition to middle and higher end three rail system that the hobby has been waiting for, and fills a major gap in the products available.  It is going to turn out to be a marketing success of great proportions in the long run because it fills a need, and provides great balance between functionality and cost in a way that nothing else in the hobby does.  I've had TMCC since 1995 or so, and tried DCS, but my last four purchases have been LionChief Plus locos, and I've donated a half dozen LionChief sets to local charities.  For a lot of us, as mentioned above, this is all we need, most of the time.

I think it has been a big success for Lionel. I have DCS and Legacy and do not yet have any LC or LC+ items. The LC+ Camelback was tempting, but the train budget was exhausted (and still is this year).

I dipped into next year's budget.  I figure I'll surely totally bust it at York anyway!

One clarification from above:

Lion Chief = remote only

Lion Chief Plus = remote OR conventional control

Can you operate LC with the new "One Remote to Run Them" or is it only LC+?

And looks like no LC+ Polar Express is available?

Qualifying this with an "I think..." but I think the new remote will work with both LC and LC+. Again, with plain vanilla Lion Chief, it's remote control only. Lionel Chief Plus allows remote and conventional control via moving the selector switch on the bottom of the loco.

I think I've got it right.

Being a Legacy user and having a preference for having only one remote for everything (also why I won't buy DCS or any MTH locos), I'm not the target audience for the LC product. However, if someone I knew were making the jump into trains but didn't yet want to spring for the full Legacy system, then the LC+ would be the direction in which I'd steer them.

I do wish that they would have made it compatible with the TMCC and Legacy systems to really "future proof" any loco purchases.

If they made it TMCC/Legacy compatible, then it would be a TMCC of Legacy locomotive!

I think the point was an entry level locomotive that didn't require the extra equipment.  I certainly wouldn't have objected to it having TMCC capability, but I'm sure that would have run the cost up.

One thing I like about MTH is their entry level stuff is full DCS, they just created a low-end remote to control them.  Lionel could have gone that route and made these TMCC compatible.

Yes, that's my wish as well. MTH decided early on to go "all in" on DCS and pretty much provide the full package of capabilities with every loco. Even if many don't expand into the full DCS remote system, they don't have to worry about painting themselves into a corner when purchasing locos.

Somehow MTH found a way to make that happen and still make money. 

I see that Lionel is coming out with a 3-loco remote for LC and LC+.   I guess I really don't have much problem manipulating three remotes (and when you have two operators you need two remotes), but can see the utility in it.

As for the future, and while I am not an electronics expert, it wouldn't seem entirely impossible for Lionel (or even a third party) to come up with an inexpensive radio transmitter (needed to run the LC+) that could be tied to and controlled by the Legacy or earlier digital systems?   Perhaps not a wise marketing move because it might cut into higher-end locomotive sales, but it might also encourage LC+ folks to jump to the Legacy system as everything would now work seamlessly.

Legacy is better only because if you have 20 or 30 legacy engines you only need one remote. I really wouldn't like to have 20 or 30 remotes laying around for all my engines.

Bob

The jury is still out on whether MTH makes a lot of money on starter sets with full DCS.

Gunrunnerjohn

Do you have any experience with make volume louder on engines? I would like to make volume higher on my new flyer-chief P E set. Chugging seems to override announcements. Would a better speaker do it?

Bob

I thought their starter sets came with only the infra-red DCS remote commander (which can only run 1 loco at a time) rather than full blown DCS handheld & TIU, although the locos themselves are equipped with the same electronics. I think it makes sense rather than producing the same locos without sound or with crippled sound, just for the sets.

Bill in FtL

It might be possible to make them all louder, but I don't know that you can change the relationship of the volumes of announcements and chuffing sounds.  I don't know of any way to do that.

I said that MTH is making money. I didn't say "lots of money." 

Bill,

Yes, the starter sets come with the simple remote but the locos internals are pretty much the full DCS package so when the user decides to upgrade to the Full DCS remote system, his loco is ready and all of the additional features are accessible.

Or if he decides first to take the loco to a buddy's layout or club that runs DCS he can do so and it can operate on their layout using their DCS remotes.

Naturally, on the other end of the scale these locos can still be run in conventional mode with just a transformer if "old-school" is the taste of the day.

The control system compatibility all the way from railing through premier locos is something that they can sell against Lionel right now.

I think Lionel has put out a train system that anyone can use and have fun with.

This in turn may help bring more first time operators and that would help grow the hobby. It's an easy system to use, the engines are really good looking, pull well, have sound and the cost is a fair one.

Good job Lionel!

When I built and described the first pre LC remote direct to loco wireless control system (TTOS's The Bulletin July 2011), I did not anticipate that Lionel's eventual version would be so overwhemingly accepted, but it is gratifying.

How about a contest to see who can predict when a battery powered LC will be announced?

Thanks GRJ. Think I will try a speaker first. There is no electronics in the tender that I can see. I'll take it apart tonight and check it out.

Bob

Speaking of Lion Chief Plus, was running my newest LC+ loco last night -- one of the NW-2 switchers --- and have to say this thing smokes like a fiend!

Really looks great when you get those twin stacks puffing away.

Pardon a long post, but I think many who are experienced in the hobby do not realize the rationale or fully get the intent and appeal of LionChief. I believe the opinions being offered in the negative are those of hobbyists who already are using command control (TMCC, Legacy, DCS).  This is not the market for whom LionChief and LionChief Plus are intended, although I have used TMCC for 20 years and my last four locomotive purchases are all LionChief Plus.

Howard Hitchcock and other Lionel personnel have made it quite clear that the high end of the hobby is a shrinking or fixed number of individuals and they perceive a need to make headway with younger customers and those who are new to the hobby.  LionChief and LionChief Plus are intended for them, in the main.

From a marketing standpoint it's quite simple.  Lionel owns perhaps 90% of the starter set market.  They will continue to do so for two simple reasons. Brand recognition is certainly one.  The second is that their cheapest sets can be had for street prices in the $100-200 range, and these sets are effectively command control because LionChief is digital, independent control of a loco.  Their competitors make sets that are mostly at street prices $100-200 more and while you may get a command control loco, you do not get an actual command control "system."  If you purchase another set from MTH or a separate sale MTH loco, you need to spring for $300 for DCS  to independently control those two or more locos. With LionChief or LionChief Plus you already have the command control built it, you get a command control handheld remote with the set or loco. 

So do the math, you can buy two LionChief sets or, for a little more money, a LionChief set and a LionChief Plus loco,  for perhaps $300-400 and have independent control of your locos with no further purchases.  Alternatively you can buy an MTH set for $250+, buy another loco or set for $250+, then sink another $300 into your DCS  for a total investment of $800, twice as much or more as the Lionel setup. 

Sure, this is oversimplification and you get different quality equipment, as well you should for twice the price. 

But which approach is more appealing to novices and typical families? Lionel is betting that half the price, half the hassle and actually packaging all the needed command equipment with each sale is a better bet.  I think they are absolutely correct.

The number of folks who buy a set and then spend thousands on the hobby is a tiny percentage of those who buy sets.  LionChief makes eminently more sense as a marketing strategy to beginners than jacking the price up to cover full command control (but only in the loco, not the remote). With MTH you get a command control loco, but you do not get a command control system.  With LionChief you get both. The loco is command control by any reasonable definition.  The remote is also a command control remote, unlike the MTH remote in its sets.  LionChief Plus complements that strategy.  The loco is command equipped and you get the command remote with the loco. 

For the serious hobbyists who is still using conventional, who form the majority of hobbyists, LionChief Plus is much more affordable and simple to integrate into their layout than any competitors' product.  Only those who are already completely invested in TMCC, Legacy or DCS would believe otherwise . 

And the soon to be available LionChief multi-loco remote mitigates the objection to having multiple remotes.  Most serious command control users already have more than one remote.  Now you can buy an additional remote for $50 for LionChief and LionChief Plus, not one that is twice as expensive with TMCC, Legacy or DCS.

2.4 GHz digital spread spectrum radio control (which is what LionChief is) is inexpensive because it uses non-proprietary, off the shelf transmitters and receivers.  It is used extensively in other toys and hobbies.  It isn't LionChief that is the closed system, it is Legacy and DCS. Somebody at Lionel has figured all that out long before I did .

I think the LionChief control system is a very good control system, especially for starter sets. It's much easier and more fun to run an LC set than having to be at the transformer. It's very easy to set up and use the system. Anyone can figure it out in about 15 seconds. I don't have any LC locos but I do have 2 LC+ locos and they are very nice. I also have 2 Railking locos with PS 3.0 and a DCS system. DCS gives control over much more than LC and LC+ but is more difficult to learn and costs about $300. The DCS Commander is about half that price but has some limitations. 

My conclusion: LC+ is a very good value. It provides a good loco at a good price. It has a lot of good features but is not equal to DCS, but costs much less. I don't have TMCC or Legacy so I can't compare but they are probably similar to DCS. If you understand what you are getting with LC or LC+ and that is what you want it's a very good deal. If you expect it to be the same as DCS or Legacy you'll be disappointed. 

I was with you until this statement.  Just because they use a similar technology to other products, that doesn't make it an "open" system.  Apple iPhone uses all the same interfaces as other phone makers, but that doesn't make them an open system by any stretch of the imagination.

I was not speaking negatively of LC/LC+, we're just discussing the options. 

Fair enough.  A potentially open system since the hardware isn't proprietary. 

I didn't take your comments as negative, by the way.  But there's been quite a bit of rather negative stuff from the more experienced hobbyists, as I note in my post above. By and large, the negativity is a matter of preference, or not actually understanding the capabilities and intent of the technology, and how it can fit with existing layouts/systems.  Hence my overly long disquisition .

I think it's pretty neat.  I confess I wish they had added about $10 to the price and included TMCC capability, that would have been really cool.  You'd have the best of both worlds.

I understand why they developed the line, and from the sales at Henning's I've seen, clearly it's a popular option.

I dont think TMCC is on the 2.4ghz spread spectrum, so the make it work with both would be some work if its possible at all.  The 2.4ghz is heavily used in the RC market for both air and ground RC control.  The transmitter and receiver are "bonded" digitaly so glitching is a thing of the past when compared to the older AM and FM control of RC cars ect.  I agree with the fact that Lionel was smart to come up this this control system from my research since I posted the question.  Most entry level modelers do not, I repeat that they do not need full TMCC or DCS. I know that even when I had my large layout, TMCC was massive overkill.  But a simple handheld to control the main sounds would have been perfect.  In my opinion, there are way to many bells and whistles in many of the new engines, and this ads to the price for each engine.  But a almost perfect(to UK standards for O gauge) model of a popular mixed use engine, with a price of just under $200 when a set gets broken up is very affordable, and the whole set can be had under $400 for the smart shopper.  The PE sets have been huge sellers and still are according to local hobby shops and Lionel just keeps adding more goodies to the whole PE line up.  Now if we could just get Lionel to offer a few UK freight wagons to go with the Hall class engines, or a proper Hi-rail version of the Thomas the Tank engines like Diesel the shunting engine ect. Lionel is smart to see the high doller collector end of the market is ending for awhile, Those that can afford the high end models are fewer and fewer in number each passing year.  Those coming up thru the ranks from the entry level cannot afford those models yet, and may never with the way the job market is.  Those high doller engines will always be out of my reach, but pretty much anything in the Lionchief line is.  I could buy 1 to 2 sets each year if I wanted to.  I should have the Albert Hall tomorrow, so since the buyer backed out, I will get it out and see what I think of the LC system. Guess I am gonna have to go find some coaches for it now.  Mike

TMCC isn't even close to 2.4ghz, that's very true.  However, the TMCC receiver components are only a few bucks at most, and can be very small.  The TMCC receiver for many of the operating cars is around 1/2" x 1/2" x 1.5" total size.  That's the complete package, including power components, receiver, and even some light or I/O drivers.  If they can cram six or seven transmitters and receivers into my cell phone, they can stuff two receivers into something as large as an O-gauge locomotive.

Its not the matter of fitting them in, its making 2 totaly different systems work together, its like trying to merge TMCC and DCS, doesnt always work to well.  Heck, even in the DCC world I have had decoders not want to work on one brand of DCC but work fine on another.  So even in a system where everything is supposed to work together, it doesnt and just causes undo stress for the owner.  Lionel took the smart way and put a simple system in, that anyone can understand and should in theory have less problems if kept that way.  The more "stuff" you put in the system, the greater chances of issues.  If by keeping this control system its own system insures that trains are running on Christmas morning or any day for that matter, that is paramount to the new folks in the hobby at this time.  You and I are farther down that path and can look at from a different view point.  But when viewed by the total newcomer that will most likely never need the ablities of DCS or TMCC, it becomes a very valuable selling point. Espicaly as they will understand the value the 2.4ghz as that is what every RC car, plane thier kids have already use.  If we dont simplify the hobby and get families into the hobby, we are signing our own death warrent to the hobby.  Parents or young familys are not going to have the money to buy those high end engines, or the TMCC/DCS system.  Most might only have 1 or two sets, thats the face of the younger side of the hobby.  The hobby is evolving fast, what can be done via 2.4ghz is amazing and with much greater speed than TMCC.  It might be that the next generation of TMCC will be on this frequency and this is just Lionel setting the foundation for things to come.  Only thier engineers know this.  If by developing this system Lionel pushes the hobby forward and sells tons of sets, then we should all embrace it, promote it and if and when the newbies are ready, they will ask "what do I do next"  Then we show them TMCC or DCS or whatever follows in the future.  To me TMCC is dated, DCS is getting there, control via 2.4ghz or thru a smart phone app is the future.  My friends whole huge HO scale layout is run with smart phones for throttles, an Ipad for a dispatchers screen, all linked to a Digitrax DCC system.  

Hi Mike

     I am a big fan of LionChief Plus

This is a NYC from my layout.

Gary

• Cheers from The Detroit and Mackinac Railway

Some great comments here. I have 6 of the LionChief basic engines or in sets. The engines are basic run OK and the kids love controlling them. Overall they are a good product simple to run for the family. Be ware the remote dial can easily be broken if the knob is turned to far by a kid wanting warp speed. The LionChief engines have a real delay from when you turn the dial to when the engine responds. This is a safety factor to keep the kids from wearing out an engine turning the dial back and forth.

I have an extensive layout and collection of DCS and TMCC engines.

I thought I would try a LionChief + steam engine. I bought it on a special sale from one of the bigger OGR forum sponsors store with a competitive price and by the time I paid the discounted price on sale and shipping, taxes and exchange rate (north of the border) I was into the engine for $550

The engine is semi scale not well detailed, the sound is tinny and rattles limited sounds. The steam sounds are repetitive. Smoke is OK and it pulls well a long string of cars.

This engine (and Lionechief engines) do not make it through many of the longer turnouts on my layout that everything else runs through.

While I think the LionChief engines are a good value I do not think the LionChief _ engines are very good value.

They are semi scale diesels have rugged looking railings.

And sounds are limited and not very good quality.

By comparison you can find MTH RailKing engines at similar or better prices both steam and diesel. In general they are far better detailed, nice more scale looking hand rails and have a far Superior sound system on board. yes you have to buy a set or the add on controller to run the basic remote system and fork out a few bucks if you are going to the full DCS system.

But do you really need the handheld for the most part most small railways are as easy to operate with a transformer.

If you are getting big enough to be running many trains at once then LionChief is an advantage with the handheld included and able to control each engine. A Multi engine layout in DCS you would need the full DCS system. But overall you are getting a lot more digital options both sound and control.

Overall LionChief good value for the $

LionChief + I would go with MTH Railking instead for a better overall train for the $