Lionel Signature Catalog 2020 Online now! Whadaya like?

Landsteiner posted:

"I like the Area 51 set, the Budweieser set, and the Thomas Kinkade set - but I can't run them on my Legacy layout. "

That's not correct.  You cannot use your Legacy system to control LionChief locos (although you can with LC 2.0+), but the way you run LionChief locos on your Legacy layout is simple.  You put the train on the track, and you control it with the included LionChief remote, the universal remote or the Lionel app on your smart phone or tablet.  LionChief locos from sets or separate sale run perfectly well on Legacy layouts as long as you put voltage (probably a minimum of about 12 volts, up to 18 volts) on the track.  Hope this helps.

True you can but that's not the point of mine (and other peoples) issue with LC stuff, if you can't directly run it with legacy. 

The match of Amtrak 4316 and 249 is interesting. The 4316, ex PC 4316, was painted to show the new system in a one-off scheme for the Broadway Limited. It was painted in this scheme by mid 1971 and repainted in the standard "Bloody Nose" by late 71, according to an internet search. The 249 kept the SCL / AMTRAK patch scheme through 1973, according to photos online. Makes for trying to make a believable early passenger train interesting, except for using a myriad of different railroads - "Kodachrome" era. 

http://www.rrpicturearchives.n...ture.aspx?id=2067688

http://www.rrpicturearchives.n...ture.aspx?id=5188768

i really want the Area 51 set and star trek set and for a more realistic train i really like the Alaska freight and baldwin set too bad i don't have money for any of these

A few observations, for what they're worth  :

The 120th Deluxe LC+2 Santa Fe freight set -- $1,000?! Whoa. Surprising that, for that price, the operating cars aren't remote controlled! 

Daylight Heavyweight passenger cars -- They're shown in the catalog with different Daylight colors than the engines. Will they be produced that way? Who knows? Lionel made Daylight scale heavyweights previously, with correct colors, which still show up. That's what I'd hunt for. (Although the 18" aluminum Daylight cars Lionel did a number of years ago are still the best Daylight passenger cars - just IMHO.)  Given Lionel's recent checkered record of color control, who knows what new engine is going to match what cars (and vice versa). 

The same color question applies to the Daylight Auxilary Water Tender. I might be interested, but won't preorder without some assurance that it will match the colors of my earlier #11127 GS-4 engine/tender. Ditto with the Vision Daylight baggage car.

LC+2 Union Pacific F-3 -- Shown in the catalog with black trucks and black fuel tank. Hope that gets changed. Also, if I were interested in the LC+2 Pennsy F-3, I'd look at the Neil Young version - more detail (including roof antennas) and Legacy, for about the same money.

Budweiser boxcar with letters that say "Not For Sipping" -- That's for sure. You've got to chug that stuff!  

BNSF Tier 4 set -- Anyone else notice there's a female engineer on the soundset? The new "Girl's Train!"

Nice to see a Southern Pacific Lark passenger train in the catalogue.  But it is missing the 3-unit articulated diner and the RPO.  Also, the baggage car is nothing like the original rebuilt heavyweight car.  Those major defects make it a deal breaker IMO.

Hoping there are no quality issues, the items below are what I like from the 2020 catalog. There are a few things I passed on from last year’s catalog that I will wait for reviews when delivered to decide. 

Reading T-1 #2100 - I already have a MTH Proto 2 T-1, but I like the whistle steam. 

PRR B6sb 

NYC E8

Southern Pacific Trainmaster

Reading Heavyweight passenger cars (6) - I’ve been wanting a nice set of Reading heavyweight cars to go with my T-1.  As they are new tooling I’m sure they’ll be nice. 

BNSF & Conrail 57’ Mechanical reefers

Blue Coal 2 bay hoper 3 pack - These will go nicely with my Weaver cars to make a longer Blue Coal unit train. 

Conrail & UP Rotary Gondola 4 packs  - Need more rotary gondolas. 

Budweiser set or cars - We have the Department 56 Budweiser brewery with the accessory Clydesdale horses. This would be cool to have this set servicing the brewery. But since I’m not into the fantasy trains I may just get an add on box car or two in a siding. On the fence for this one. 

PRR, Bethlehem Steel & UP Ore car 6 car sets

Various Christmas cars - To add to my Christmas trains. Not sure which ones but I like the flat cars with Pup trailers. 

These are just what I like from the catalog. As I said, just dreaming there would be no quality issues. But the only definite preorder will be the Reading heavyweight cars. 

As usual future purchases may depend on what all you guys talk me into, or out of. 

Wasn't Blue Coal offered back in the '90s?

"True you can but that's not the point of mine (and other peoples) issue with LC stuff, if you can't directly run it with legacy."

Look at  it this way, if you buy the Area 51 LionChief set, you not only get the loco, cars and track, you get a "free" remote that another member of your family or a friend can use to operate the train on your Legacy layout.  Same for every single LC loco or set. 

Now maybe you don't want more remotes.  You'll have to wait for Lionel or someone else to develop a Legacy/TMCC to LionChief bridge, which at least two people are working on creating, to my knowledge. 

Meanwhile, at least Lionel doesn't require you to provide your own remote when they sell you a set. 

Progress isn't free and this is the price of keeping Lionel's sets and LC separate sale locos relatively economical.  You can get the new LC locos for under $200 from Charles Ro.  Sets as little as $149 (Thomas).  LionChief is much, much cheaper to put in sets than Legacy would be, perhaps by ten fold.  Just the reality of providing locos appealing to beginners and those who are not primarily toy train hobbyists at lower cost.  Adding Legacy would add at least $100 to the cost of each set or loco, roughly speaking.

Since I am late to this discussion will add this question about the Southern Railway Train Masters.  Dose anyone know for certain that the pilot decks are the correct prototypical heights (for Southern)?

Ron

WBC posted:

Here is a prototype picture with the white pilot. 

https://www.railarchive.net/ra...am/images/sp4436.jpg

Looks silver to me!

PRRronbh posted:

Since I am late to this discussion will add this question about the Southern Railway Train Masters.  Dose anyone know for certain that the pilot decks are the correct prototypical heights (for Southern)?

Ron

If they are the FM TM unit tools from the CCII they will have the high ends. Not sure if the tool does the lowered ends.

I didn't see these mentioned! I may get them. 

I have this on order with TrainWorld. I’ve been waiting for another road name other then Hogwarts. Wish it was Lionchief “plus” with Cruise control but it will do. 

josef posted:

The 0-6-0T. But surprise they added artist drawn smoke  when it won't have smoke. Wonder how many will think it's also a smoker?

if you look at the lion chiefs 2.0 they have smoke and it says it has the lion chief 2.0 features

MartyE posted:

This is one of the highlights IMO.  If this set doesn't sell well I have no answers.

This set, or the 4-4-2 steamer on pgs. 10-11, the "Lionel Lines LionChief set.  Or a Polar Express set.  If anyone asks me, I'd recommend one of these 3 sets, as I think they are a good value, best "Bang for the Buck", type of sets.

Outside of them, I can't really say there's anything that really interests me.  Since I'm kinda' in between the "beginner" and "expert" stages of O-gauge model railroading, nothing else piques MY desires in either desirability or affordability.

Now if they offered something in PROTOTYPICAL Rock Island (not just a Santa Fe prototype with R.I. lettering, or R.I. fantasy schemes, etc.), it might be a different story......................

The Boston and Maine set for sure! Excited to see the new passenger cars and milk car! Hopefully they get the B&M colors right. I’m going to give them the benefit of the doubt and preorder. Also really like the 0-6-0T Granite Quarry Set from the last catalog.

I noticed that the SD 40's have the kinematic pilots. I had one and returned it, very disappointed.

Slow to catch on....just noticed the Fake News Stand. Very funny. 

Chris Lonero posted:

I have this on order with TrainWorld. I’ve been waiting for another road name other then Hogwarts. Wish it was Lionchief “plus” with Cruise control but it will do. 

 

Still confused if LionChief can be used with other remotes and or conventional?  I believe there is a universal remote one can use?  I would prefer all the flexible for all power sources.  Why limit a sets adaptability?

Mike W. posted:

Chris Lonero posted:

I have this on order with TrainWorld. I’ve been waiting for another road name other then Hogwarts. Wish it was Lionchief “plus” with Cruise control but it will do. 

 

Still confused if LionChief can be used with other remotes and or conventional?  I believe there is a universal remote one can use?  I would prefer all the flexible for all power sources.  Why limit a sets adaptability?

Only bluetooth, universal remote or set remote with train sets. A huge let down and something that needs to be fixed. 

Billsrr posted:

I noticed that the SD 40's have the kinematic pilots. I had one and returned it, very disappointed.

   Disappointed because you returned it, or disappointed because it had kinematic pilots?  

Shawn_Chronister posted:

josef posted:

The 0-6-0T. But surprise they added artist drawn smoke  when it won't have smoke. Wonder how many will think it's also a smoker?

if you look at the lion chiefs 2.0 they have smoke and it says it has the lion chief 2.0 features

Yup. The catalog description says fan-driven smoke. Also, the OP (Josef) should read the current thread about the 0-6-0, where Dave from Lionel says the following:

This engine was delayed a bit due to new tooling and new tech. We're making new tooling for the electrocouplers and the smoke unit as well as the PCB design."

Not only will it have smoke, it will have an improved smoke unit. 

Why are the Berkshire LionChief options made from that new tooling and not the Classic PW tooling as used on previous LC+ Berks?

Trainlover9943 posted:

Mike W. posted:

Chris Lonero posted:

I have this on order with TrainWorld. I’ve been waiting for another road name other then Hogwarts. Wish it was Lionchief “plus” with Cruise control but it will do. 

 

Still confused if LionChief can be used with other remotes and or conventional?  I believe there is a universal remote one can use?  I would prefer all the flexible for all power sources.  Why limit a sets adaptability?

Only bluetooth, universal remote or set remote with train sets. A huge let down and something that needs to be fixed. 

Yeah, IMO this is as bad as the early MPC DC-Only sets.  

MikeH posted:

Mike W. posted:

Does Beer still move by rail?  The beer cars made me think of this.

Those beer cars were for shipping barrels of beer.  Prior to prohibition, over 80% of beer in the US was sold on draught at taverns.  Even industry giants like Pabst, Schlitz, Ballantine, and Anheuser-Busch had just one big brewery.  They had to ship those barrels all over the nation.

After Prohibition, draught beer consumption began to decline as the major brewers improved their bottling and then canning processes.  Packaged beer is pasteurized and doesn't require refrigerated railcars. 

Also after WWII, I know that our local brewery, Anheuser-Busch, brought the mountain to Mohammed: they opened breweries in Newark, NJ and Los Angeles, CA.  So between the local breweries and better packaging, the beer cars became unnecessary.

And they built one in Houston.

Craignor posted:

I like this set, but what’s with the white cow catcher?

Or is the color really aluminum?

The two Amtrak E units were very early repaints.  One could run almost any passenger car behind them.  Maybe there will be some early Amtrak passenger cars in the 2020-2 Cat.

I like the visionline Gs series stuff but what are the guarantee that they will have the correct sounds or correct painting? My dealer charges deposit and I can't cancel pre order and get the deposit refunded if Lionel gets something wrong

Dominic Mazoch posted:

MikeH posted:

Mike W. posted:

Does Beer still move by rail?  The beer cars made me think of this.

Those beer cars were for shipping barrels of beer.  Prior to prohibition, over 80% of beer in the US was sold on draught at taverns.  Even industry giants like Pabst, Schlitz, Ballantine, and Anheuser-Busch had just one big brewery.  They had to ship those barrels all over the nation.

After Prohibition, draught beer consumption began to decline as the major brewers improved their bottling and then canning processes.  Packaged beer is pasteurized and doesn't require refrigerated railcars. 

Also after WWII, I know that our local brewery, Anheuser-Busch, brought the mountain to Mohammed: they opened breweries in Newark, NJ and Los Angeles, CA.  So between the local breweries and better packaging, the beer cars became unnecessary.

And they built one in Houston.

Not altogether true. Railroads still haul beer in some areas. Here's one example.

"Unbeknownst to most commuters and residents, a railway has dutifully delivered New York City’s beer supplies for more than 20 years. The hidden freight train is so essential to the city’s beer consumption, in fact, that New York & Atlantic Railway president James Bonner nicknamed it the “pizza-and-beer railroad.”

Headquartered in Glendale, Queens, the New York & Atlantic Railway services Nassau and Suffolk Counties on Long Island, as well as Brooklyn and Queens. It operates via the Long Island Railroad (LIRR), the country’s densest passenger system, connecting to other railways including the BRT, CP, CSXT, NS, NYNJ, and P&W.

High on its list of deliveries are flour and beer. According to The New York Times’s Corey Kilgannon, things get especially busy during peak beer-drinking occasions like the Super Bowl and St. Patrick’s Day. At those times, up to 30 rail cars transport 3,500 cases of beer each, some of it coming “all the way from Mexico” with Corona and Modelo Especial." 

I don't know the extent to which US breweries use rail to transport beer (although they have used glass-lined tank cars to transport slurry between breweries), but Mexico's beer travels by train.  I posted another article at the Forum Real Trains site about Mexican beer being transported by the UP - pretty interesting information.

Mike W. posted:

Trainlover9943 posted:

Mike W. posted:

Chris Lonero posted:

I have this on order with TrainWorld. I’ve been waiting for another road name other then Hogwarts. Wish it was Lionchief “plus” with Cruise control but it will do. 

 

Still confused if LionChief can be used with other remotes and or conventional?  I believe there is a universal remote one can use?  I would prefer all the flexible for all power sources.  Why limit a sets adaptability?

Only bluetooth, universal remote or set remote with train sets. A huge let down and something that needs to be fixed. 

Yeah, IMO this is as bad as the early MPC DC-Only sets.  

Not really a deal breaker for me as I’ll probably just use my phone with blue tooth. Not a whole lot of options out there for 3 rail British locomotives especially under $1000 dollars. 

Mike W. posted:

Why are the Berkshire LionChief options made from that new tooling and not the Classic PW tooling as used on previous LC+ Berks?

Interesting question and follow-up for clarification. Based on the photos in the 2019 and 2020 catalogs, I think the LC+2 looks like Lionel's O27 Jr. Berk (like the traditional-sized PE).  On the plus side, I think it's closer match to the real Berk that the LC+ and classic PW Berk. On the minus side, to me, a Berk should be the biggest steamer on a pike not counting articulateds.  For semi-scalers, the Jr. Berk is smaller than even most Pacifics. For that reason, I went to DCS and picked up a Rail King which is 10-15% bigger than the Lionel Jr.

I'd REALLY like to know if the LC+2 is new tooling. Says 20" in the catalog which wouldn't interest me. 

I wonder why prices are so high?

Dave,

I'd like to jump in with everyone else who've asked that the LionChief Plus 2.0 system become The Standard in all Traditionally sized equipment.  I understand some things (like the starter set 2-4-2/4-4-2) can't have cruise... but I'm pretty sure you'd sell a ton more sets and separate sale steam and diesel engines if they had cruise.

Jon

I tend to agree with having LC+2.0 in all future Lionel releases but not knowing the cost I guess could make it prohibitive. Keeping the sets affordable is probably important to Lionel so there is that. 

I applaud the engineering folks for making LC+2.0 available now in most of the separate sale engines.  It does open up a lot more choices, it would be cool if they could go the extra step into sets.  

There are some separate sale engines that really need the Plus 2.0 system: 0-8-0's for instance.

Jon

"I wonder why prices are so high?"

Best guess is some combination decreasing volume of sales per item, increasing complexity of product and increasing costs of production (labor in China, transport to USA, inflation).  Everything else (housing, healthcare, gas and milk) with the exception of personal computers has also gone up in price strikingly during the last 30-50 years too.

Perusing my copy of the catalog have another question.  The "Reciprocating Cylinder Steam" effect dose it cut off soon after initial movement or stay on continuously?   If on continuously the engineer forgot to shut-off the Cylinder Cocks.  Or the engine is in need of bad maintenance with four leaking cylinder heads.

Now I have only gotten to drive a little 0-6-0 tea-kettle for about an hour.  But was taught to shut off the Cylinder Cocks soon after starting to roll within a couple of revolutions.  And they remained off until I came to a full stop parking the engine then opening them.

Ron

PRRronbh posted:

Perusing my copy of the catalog have another question.  The "Reciprocating Cylinder Steam" effect dose it cut off soon after initial movement or stay on continuously?   If on continuously the engineer forgot to shut-off the Cylinder Cocks.  Or the engine is in need of bad maintenance with four leaking cylinder heads.

Now I have only gotten to drive a little 0-6-0 tea-kettle for about an hour.  But was taught to shut off the Cylinder Cocks soon after starting to roll within a couple of revolutions.  And they remained off until I came to a full stop parking the engine then opening them.

Ron

No, the "Reciprocating Cylinder Steam" is the same as the older cylinder steam effect on the 2-10-4. This means that the engine, when starting, will put out the steam for 15 seconds and then stop. On the older version, you were able to activate this feature while the engine was not in motion but this may not be possible since the new ones have a real piston inside the cylinder.  

Trainmaster04 posted:

PRRronbh posted:

Perusing my copy of the catalog have another question.  The "Reciprocating Cylinder Steam" effect dose it cut off soon after initial movement or stay on continuously?   If on continuously the engineer forgot to shut-off the Cylinder Cocks.  Or the engine is in need of bad maintenance with four leaking cylinder heads.

Now I have only gotten to drive a little 0-6-0 tea-kettle for about an hour.  But was taught to shut off the Cylinder Cocks soon after starting to roll within a couple of revolutions.  And they remained off until I came to a full stop parking the engine then opening them.

Ron

No, the "Reciprocating Cylinder Steam" is the same as the older cylinder steam effect on the 2-10-4. This means that the engine, when starting, will put out the steam for 15 seconds and then stop. On the older version, you were able to activate this feature while the engine was not in motion but this may not be possible since the new ones have a real piston inside the cylinder.  

  

Did I miss this being covered in the catalog?  I so where?

Ron

It was in the Notch 6 podcast.

Jon