Lionel Smoke fluid Loader/Use

   I'm with Mr. Schmeelk. Just visually though, as I don't have one here, but appears to have some thought applied to it -vs--being a "get-er-done" job.

jim pastorius posted:

Too bad Frank Petit wasn't around to design this thing !!

 .....Frank was the name of the man my Grandfather talked to from Lionel all the time. Same guy?? I think he was the one looked for, and found, my "X" set if you caught the post. Designer, huh...I often wish we had kept that outdated Rolodex another fifteen years past its prime... Trains were still boxed then, wasn't thinking about the train folks, & most listed had passed on, or we didn't know them.

    I never came across a name for the fitting of tube that way. We would just say "shrink tube clamp" butted, seated, or on a nipple/ barb. They had been creeping into coin-op and HVAC since the 80's as a light duty option. With good  tube, trimming, and fitment, it shouldn't be a regularly returning issue. When first encountered, it can be frustrating, like many new things, you get used to it. Auto companies use the method too.

  On tubing, "FUEL" should be stated for the best chance at getting a tube that wont melt or become brittle. A Menards/H.Depot/Lowes should have something for weed wackers that fits. But as mentioned earlier on, the foreign suppliers sometimes worry more about getting a tube into a blister pack , than getting the right tube into a blister pack. (we can only blame ourselves America).

  Silicone should be ok , but you may find it to be squirmy to work with. The frosted tube used; it looks like silicone to me. I did run across batches of Sil.tube that "split" suddenly under stress of harder curves. Normally thicker walled than other types for the ID used, its not as prone to kinking* (if it does, its usually stops flow 100%) My only issue was a situational one with an oversized nipple; silicone splits sooner when the ID is stretched open too far. *medical/dental equipment used it a lot.

  For the 90º elbow an RC oriented hobby store should carry either brass and/or plastic "mini"-elbows rated for fuel use.  The "Parker Store" are another possible source if near you. An industrial fitting specialty company with a very wide variety of connectors large and small. Sometimes pricey, but normally competitive for the quality handed to you IMO. [shop with time to look around at the variety, and newest plumbing ideas. Always a new surprise]

Other robotic and pneumatic supply houses may prove fruitful too.

   I'm not sure of the present stance on this by Lionel today, but the old PW Lionel & MPC-L stated in print, to use Naptha (Zippo style lighter fluid for a little can, vs quart or gallon labeled Naptha) for cleaning their plastics.

I used it on all my toys as a kid. I don't remember totally ruining anything but a very dirty, light blue gondola. It has some weaker lettering today (be careful, and test,"Paint Warning", it will remove some paints/inks  [given time to, maybe even loosen a modern glue?]. That said, to give you a general idea of how weak/strong it is,  in my experience, paint doesn't suddenly start running down the sides, but after a few seconds, can begin to be rubbed off. Left alone to dry again, the paints resets. (After it dried well, a fast wipe with Naptha removed the light paint smears, without time for penetrating and disturbing the main lettering again).

   My Grandfathers bench had a sealed can for Naptha rags, and it's odor was faintly in the air from near daily use, either filling the Zippo he carried, or cleaning a Lionel train car. Add that to Lucky Strike, coffee, ozone and smoke pellet scent, and your there...I mean here....here, but then. ?...you know. 

Lionel2341 posted:

I would stand it up vertical with the tank pointing down on a old towel or paper towel to soak up any smoke fluid, then use some 409 or something like that to clean up.

Ernie

 I'm not sure if it was 409 or fantastic, but one of the two gave me about 40ft of "frosted plexiglass" years ago. I test all first today.

 I'd say no to Simple Green too as it apparently melts F.track roadbed after a bit..

That's been posted plenty, but there are new folk every day who don't know.

SD60M posted:

Maybe it is in one of those threads or common sense to most of you...but, why is that switch even included with the accessory if it seems it must be slid in one certain direction for the thing to work properly?  I can understand an "off" position...but, what for what is the "reverse" position used?

I probably missed that somewhere...I am prepared to be ridiculed and chastised.

It's probably part of the pump which was already a product on it's own.

Adriatic posted:

Lionel2341 posted:

I would stand it up vertical with the tank pointing down on a old towel or paper towel to soak up any smoke fluid, then use some 409 or something like that to clean up.

Ernie

 I'm not sure if it was 409 or fantastic, but one of the two gave me about 40ft of "frosted plexiglass" years ago. I test all first today.

 I'd say no to Simple Green too as it apparently melts F.track roadbed after a bit..

That's been posted plenty, but there are new folk every day who don't know.

I decided not to use anything except just paper towel. I also have a product called Plexus which is a plastic cleaner and shine up, which doesn't seem to hurt paint or plastic. I carefully shined it up a little with a little of that on a towel.

I laughed when I watched  the video of refueling a steam engine through the stack.  Oil or coal-an interesting thought. Maybe simulate filling the sand dome ??

cjack posted:

SD60M posted:

Maybe it is in one of those threads or common sense to most of you...but, why is that switch even included with the accessory if it seems it must be slid in one certain direction for the thing to work properly?  I can understand an "off" position...but, what for what is the "reverse" position used?

I probably missed that somewhere...I am prepared to be ridiculed and chastised.

It's probably part of the pump which was already a product on it's own.

Correct. Off the shelf so to speak

jim pastorius posted:

I laughed when I watched  the video of refueling a steam engine through the stack.  Oil or coal-an interesting thought. Maybe simulate filling the sand dome ??

 I know what you mean I laughed when they were sitting on 3 rail track while dropping smoke fluid in the stack with a large hand and a eyedropper in the past. 

For all you pundit's my original design was not done this way. Secondly the switch helps to unload the pump and fluid back into the tank when the loader is not used for some time.

Lionel was free to make changes to my design as they wished to facilitate production. They produced my design @ 99% I originally used 5/32 hose from pump to boom and a reduction barb from tank to pump. However my "Quick Fix" works well.

Ernie

Someone said "missing screws". What missing screws? I have all mine .

Yes, but they are loose !!

cjack posted:

Someone said "missing screws". What missing screws? I have all mine .

Missing holes for mounting. Not screws.

My guess is that Lionel made use of an existing pump.

Bill Schmeelk posted:

My guess is that Lionel made use of an existing pump.

Correct, it's the same one I used in my Prototype.

You wouldn't need much of a pump for 10-20 drops of smoke fluid.

jim pastorius posted:

You wouldn't need much of a pump for 10-20 drops of smoke fluid.

Yes, but you need one that will last the life of the accessories.

This is how I did one of my Prototypes.

I used a reduction Barb for hose transition.

Just curious-what type of pump is it ??  Centrifigul ?  Gear ?  Tube ?   Relatively occasional, interrmittent use.

For me, an important part of the design of this accessory is that it dispenses the fluid in drops. When I first heard of the accessory I could just picture locos being christened with a flood of fluid. The roughly 2 drops per second makes it easy to put the desired number of  drops into the loco. I also like the fine control you have of the loader arm. It takes about 9 revolutions of the CAB knob to move the full 90 degrees - making it easy to properly line up the arm with the stack.

Lionel2341 posted:

cjack posted:

Someone said "missing screws". What missing screws? I have all mine .

Missing holes for mounting. Not screws.

Oh. I noticed it's easy to misalign it by having it slide if you touched it to go to program or whatever. Maybe drill two holes on centered on the two ends. Carefully not to drill thru a wire by the program switch or power

Lionel2341 posted:

This is how I did one of my Prototypes.

I used a reduction Barb for hose transition.

I tried that with the 1/8 inch ID a little long and then the stock silicone hose, but bending the 1/8 inch ID hose was too extreme with the real wall in place. So I did the less than 1/2 inch couplers instead and let the stock silicone hose do the bend. What we really need to feel comfortable is a couple right angle 1/8 inch ID silicone elbows. BUT this is dry so far and working. When my original whittled down hose broke, it syphened out an ounce of Lionel Premium Smoke Fluid onto the Loader floor, etc. That's a half a bottle! And that's a mess I don't want to repeat...

Lionel said if I'm not happy with my cleanup, they would send me a new one. I'm happy and like to be conservative of other's resources, so I would probably clean it up again, but maybe completely disassemble it next time and do something super secure as to the hoses.

Hobby town has the tubing.   Picked up a package of Tygon Tubing 3' 1/8" id for about $6.00. Looked for elbows but no luck. They have the tubing behind the counter you can buy by the foot also.

I found the Tygon a bit stiff for bending, but the Silicone is a bit squishy...so the elbow would be great!

Also the smoke unit pump has a little bit large mounting screw holes. So loosening the screws and pushing it forward can get you another 1/32 inch of clearance.

Ah good to know about moving the pump a bit.

I'm sorry to say the detailed descriptions of issues here caused me to decide to return mine for a store credit at my LHS.  I didn't get as far as trying it with fluid or doing the mod adding the silicone hose.  It just didn't seem worth the hassle to me.  After waiting 4+ years for this, I'm a bit disappointed.

I wish everyone who keeps theirs lots of luck with it.  I'll have to survive with just the original TAS unit I had from years ago.

-Dave

you might be able to use some drip type sprinkler fittings,  they may make a 90 degree, or maybe an auto vacuum  fitting, some of those smog fittings are small.

I don't have this accessory, but have been following this thread with interest.

For the 90 degree elbow I found:

http://www.pneumadyne.com/elbo...OjQ6ImdyaWQiO2k6MDt9

Oman posted:

I don't have this accessory, but have been following this thread with interest.

For the 90 degree elbow I found:

http://www.pneumadyne.com/elbo...OjQ6ImdyaWQiO2k6MDt9

 

  I've used their equipment, good stuff. Bimba(pneumadyne) makes some tiny little actuation cylinders too.

Seems a bit hasty to wait so long, and give up over an evening upgrade. But then again, you do have one already.

    Fixing things like this, especially new, can be frustrating sure, but normally gives me greater piece of mind in the long run. I guess its because I like to" know my machine". Not for everyone, fun to me.

I'll be posting a photo on how my original was done. I'll be applying it to the new unit for those who want to make it bullet proof. It involves 5/32 ID silicon hose and a transition barb. However the simple fix works well.

Ernie

Dave45681 posted:

I'm sorry to say the detailed descriptions of issues here caused me to decide to return mine for a store credit at my LHS.  I didn't get as far as trying it with fluid or doing the mod adding the silicone hose.  It just didn't seem worth the hassle to me.  After waiting 4+ years for this, I'm a bit disappointed.

I wish everyone who keeps theirs lots of luck with it.  I'll have to survive with just the original TAS unit I had from years ago.

-Dave

Yes, another case of the name goes on before the quality goes in.

I'm more if a work on it rather than use it person. So Lionel's working to my advantage.

cjack posted:

I'm more if a work on it rather than use it person. So Lionel's working to my advantage.

I'm fine with tinkering once I've run something  a bit if it needs maintenance due to wear.  I've just reached the point where I'm not OK with it when something right out of the box needs a retrofit in order to not fail what I would consider a major requirement (not leaking fluid in this case). 

It sure sounds like if the retrofit is not done, the question becomes when, not if the unit would leak.  I realize bad news travels faster than good, so maybe there are some satisfied users out there who will never experience an issue if they use the unit as delivered.  The above discussion makes it seem like it's highly recommended to do the upgrade, however.

We all have our own expectations and levels of what we are willing to accept on new items.  Unfortunately I reached my threshold on this item.

-Dave

   You aren't wrong  Having two would have been cool that's all.

  Even PW wasn't without its issues. So many tweaks and tricks on early runs we discuss them every day. Factoring in command, about where I'd expect price wise (would have liked to see a corded control lol )

Bill Schmeelk posted:

I wouldn't blame the designer. I think the design is actually quite good. I would put the blame on a poor execution of the design. Generally it is well executed, but the missing screw holes and poor connection to the pump are not the designer's fault.

这种产品很烂 This is the only way to put it!

shawn posted:

Bill Schmeelk posted:

I wouldn't blame the designer. I think the design is actually quite good. I would put the blame on a poor execution of the design. Generally it is well executed, but the missing screw holes and poor connection to the pump are not the designer's fault.

这种产品很烂 This is the only way to put it!

Thanks Bill, I had no input to the final design or production.

Ernie

This is the way my Prototype was done. The 5/32 ID hose ran from the pump directly to the boom. the feed hose had a reduction barb that went from 5/32 to 1/8. A small tyrap was used to lightly anchor the hose to the boom. this made it pretty much bullet proof. If any of you decide to retro your unit in this way make sure you route the 5/32 hose as shown in the photo. 

Ernie

PS ignore the piece of wood and the hose looks bigger than it really is in the photo.

Did you use a tyrap at the pump also?

I decided to switch to 1/8 inch ID hose of couplers about 3 or 4 inches long. It fits really tight on the pump and I push about an inch of the original silicone hose into it on the other end. So it's really satisfyingly tight as to fluid. However, the 90 degree bend collapses pretty much at the rear wall of the house. But, fluid flows readily thru it. The bends push strongly on the wall.

The limiting factor with all these solutions is the bend at the wall. If the wall were one inch farther out, all the bend issues would go away. I need to fashion an addition of a tool box to the back of the wall. Lionel could sell those as an accessory for $25 each .

cjack posted:

I decided to switch to 1/8 inch ID hose of couplers about 3 or 4 inches long. It fits really tight on the pump and I push about an inch of the original silicone hose into it on the other end. So it's really satisfyingly tight as to fluid. However, the 90 degree bend collapses pretty much at the rear wall of the house. But, fluid flows readily thru it. The bends push strongly on the wall.

The limiting factor with all these solutions is the bend at the wall. If the wall were one inch farther out, all the bend issues would go away. I need to fashion an addition of a tool box to the back of the wall. Lionel could sell those as an accessory for $25 each .

Great idea!

-Pete

I like the hose going over the fitting with the tyrap  that Ernie has done. One solid hose over the fittings with tyrap as a clamp seems like a good way to go.