Lionel Thumb Tack Couplers

I couldn't agree with you more on all counts!

Me too. Bad decision from Mike R.

Rod Miller

I'm spoiled by Lionel's great PS series hidden un-couplers. I wont go backwards in time with this ugly old PW Disc concept with these higher priced cars. 

Looks like MTH will get my freight car $$$. 

                                                         Latest MTH coupler design

I think the new couplers are a giant step backwards. Lionel's scale cars were, IMHO, almost perfect before the change. I will not buy any of the new ones.

Hal

I concur 100% - no more purchases until they resolve the coupler situation in OUR FAVOR.

Maybe I'm a little confused about what you guys like and what you don't.

As an operator who will be doing a lot of switching, and hosting others to run the railroad, simple consistent activation is the key. I have cars of all styles of coupler. They may be a little ugly, but the best for my money are the ones with visible tabs that you press down. These are found on the new Lionscale cars.

The hidden tabs are hard to see, and difficult to activate. I may have to paint the tabs a bright color so the guys can find them.

Most of the operators will be coming from the HO world, where Kadees rule. Converting my fleet is not an option. I'm going to have to teach these old dogs a new trick, but I'm going to have to teach myself first.

The change was done to satisfy the 4 or 5 two rail guys.

I won't buy any of the new rolling stock either with these trucks. Step backwards as others have said. 

base11 posted:

I just picked up my first scale Lionel car with the new thumb tack couplers.  It was the Perl Marquette caboose.  I have other similar cabooses, but all have the hidden tab coupler.  Although I am not fond of the thumb tack look, that is not the major reason I don't like these.  To my surprise, the couplers are part of the wheel set.  For whatever reason, I thought the couplers would still move side to side independent of the wheel set.  For that reason, I will not purchase anymore cars with these couplers.  I like to do switching moves, and I find that the solid coupler to wheel set design is more prone to derailments.  What are everyones thoughts on these new couplers?

"To my surprise, the couplers are part of the wheel set.  For whatever reason, I thought the couplers would still move side to side independent of the wheel set."

That seems to be the opposite of the Kinetic Coupler design. Since the coupler no longer moves independent of the truck does that increase the possibility of derailments? Have a Mill gondola coming, gonna be upset if at this price point it looks and operates badly.

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

Maybe I'm a little confused about what you guys like and what you don't.

As an operator who will be doing a lot of switching, and hosting others to run the railroad, simple consistent activation is the key. I have cars of all styles of coupler. They may be a little ugly, but the best for my money are the ones with visible tabs that you press down. These are found on the new Lionscale cars.

The hidden tabs are hard to see, and difficult to activate. I may have to paint the tabs a bright color so the guys can find them.

Most of the operators will be coming from the HO world, where Kadees rule. Converting my fleet is not an option. I'm going to have to teach these old dogs a new trick, but I'm going to have to teach myself first.

The hidden tab couplers look so much better, and if you are having HO guys over as you mention they are already accustomed to using a stick for uncoupling and could just use one to slide the tab back. Or add uncoupling tracks.

Surefire posted:

The change was done to satisfy the 4 or 5 two rail guys.

I won't buy any of the new rolling stock either with these trucks. Step backwards as others have said. 

This appears to be the feeling of many, it was done for the few scale coupler folks in the 3rail crowd. It may appear here there are many, in the overall market it seems they are very slim in number.

I bet the one Mom & Pop overseas supplier went out of business, moved on or raised the price.

So Lionel had to deviate from the better design. Like Weavers die cast spring T&C shortage we experienced for a long time, we are sometimes at the mercy of the foreign supplier. I'm guessing that's what happened.

On another note: all companies should supply air hoses on the couplers. Even RMT gave us that nice addition!

SIRT posted:

I bet the one Mom & Pop overseas supplier went out of business, moved on or raised the price.

So Lionel had to deviate from the better design. Like Weavers die cast spring T&C shortage we experienced for a long time, we are sometimes at the mercy of the foreign supplier. I'm guessing that's what happened.

On another note: all companies should supply air hoses on the couplers. Even RMT gave us that nice addition!

You can read this post as to why they were changed...

Mike Reagan explains Lionel Coupler Change.

I had emailed Dave Olson earlier this week on the subject and this was his response

Maybe some of the loudest critics of the thumbtack should get together and design a bolt-on hidden tab add-on for the Lionel trucks.  Looking at the design, it appears that you could replace the existing coupler shank with your own design that offered the hidden coupler tab.  Take that screw out and bolt on your "improved" coupler.

I've seen that post. MTH can go 2 or 3r without compromise and look good too. Weavers LD T&C were just fine even with a half-moon tab design. I see Lionel's marketing strategy to accommodate the 2r market but from my observations as a sales standpoint, 2r is about dead. There would not be enough sales for 3RS either. They lost way more potential 3r sales by attempting to cater to a much smaller market. Too bad.

Another thing I suspect, based on a couple of the trucks I have seen, is that even though they do have real springs, the springs are just for looks and do not work. In other words, while it may look like sprung-functional trucks, as on older cars, these new car trucks are not functionally sprung.

Alex

I would have to disagree with the idea that 2 rail or 3RS for that matter is dead.  I think it has picked up many people, me included, who just aren't vocal about these types of things. I think Lionel did a fantastic job on these cars.  I'd say they are fine tuned for a scale oriented customer, not 027. Just my opinion. 

Jeff78rr posted:

I would have to disagree with the idea that 2 rail or 3RS for that matter is dead.  I think it has picked up many people, me included, who just aren't vocal about these types of things. I think Lionel did a fantastic job on these cars.  I'd say they are fine tuned for a scale oriented customer, not 027. Just my opinion. 

Mine also!!!

In my opinion they should've just done 2 rail and 3 rail offerings like Atlas O does. 

Maybe some of the loudest critics of the thumbtack should get together and design a bolt-on hidden tab add-on for the Lionel trucks.

Or people could simply stop buying the cars with thumbtack couplers. Lionel would eventually get the message. They do things like putting thumbtack couplers on these cars because they know their customer base will accept it and continue to buy the cars.

C W Burfle posted:

Maybe some of the loudest critics of the thumbtack should get together and design a bolt-on hidden tab add-on for the Lionel trucks.

Or people could simply stop buying the cars with thumbtack couplers. Lionel would eventually get the message. They do things like putting thumbtack couplers on these cars because they know their customer base will accept it and continue to buy the cars.

Look at this as a product development opportunity.  If enough people really feel that strongly about the thumbtack, it's a chance to have your own O-gauge enhancement product.

1 - "ugly old PW Disc" - OK, on a technicality, the "disc" (later an actual thumbtack) is a PW item, but they came along right at the end of PW - late 50's - so I don't include them as part of the "pure" PW design ethos.

2 - the "true" (the later, magnetic, post-coil) PW knuckle coupler has to be the best-performing and longest-lasting Hi-rail  coupler ever offered - and I have some of everything. You could buy an upgrade "kit" that will fit on almost anything with the same wheelbase - many of us have done it. Modern trucks? No problem. The axles are fixed to the wheels on these, but the upgrade tab-mount kit adds very little drag. No thumbtack on these PW couplers. I have even used them on a couple of 2-rail trucks when converting a car to Hi-rail.

3 - the new trucks typically have too-long shafts, are breakable, non-adjustable and, within true reason, cannot be fixed or adjusted. I have a couple of these trucks with missing and/or broken couplers; I intend to see if the PW coupler kit can be used on them. Haven't tried yet. There may be grinding.

4 - the thumbtack/armature coupler can be adjusted and even fixed, depending. The tack is not pretty, but my solution/suggestion has always been to keep all that, but design a new "tack", in black, that is tucked more up under the truck (K-line/RMT did this, pretty much).

5 - the action (vertical) of the armature release tab is superior to the horizontal tabs on the new trucks; easier to find (and make a tool for) and does not cause you to shove the car down the track while trying to find that blasted tab behind that blasted "air hose" (all my hoses are gone).

6 - the armature/thumbtack coupler - a sometimes flawed, superior, flexible design, second only to the PW magnetics, that has suffered from sloppy detail work, execution and appearance. K-line (except for the horizontal tab action), as usual, went a better route - they kept the thumbtack, sort of, but hid it. 

Look at this as a product development opportunity.  If enough people really feel that strongly about the thumbtack, it's a chance to have your own O-gauge enhancement product.

LOL, very true. And I believe that the basement hobbyist inventors and manufacturers  play an important role in our hobby. On the other hand, having to purchase aftermarket accessories to get a decent car would raise the price of an already expensive item.

I think the 480 series or NTC is where it is at.

C W Burfle posted:

LOL, very true. And I believe that the basement hobbyist inventors and manufacturers  play an important role in our hobby. On the other hand, having to purchase aftermarket accessories to get a decent car would raise the price of an already expensive item.

True, but they do function as they are, so many folks would just use them.  You can also buy Menard's cars, they have hidden couplers.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Maybe some of the loudest critics of the thumbtack should get together and design a bolt-on hidden tab add-on for the Lionel trucks.  Looking at the design, it appears that you could replace the existing coupler shank with your own design that offered the hidden coupler tab.  Take that screw out and bolt on your "improved" coupler.

Yeah John, I really like those new Lionscale trucks. Two railers and Kadee lovers can just take the lobster claw off with that single screw. The only flaw I've found with those is the retaining rim where the screw fastens to the car. That rim is kind of fragile. I had a few break out during shipping, before Lionel fixed their packaging.

BobbyD posted:

The hidden tab couplers look so much better, and if you are having HO guys over as you mention they are already accustomed to using a stick for uncoupling and could just use one to slide the tab back. Or add uncoupling tracks.

I tried that stick thing, but when you can't see the tiny tab, it makes things difficult. Doesn't help that the brake hoses are in the way. Like I said, I think I'll paint them a bright color. That should remove most of the frustration.

Like I said before. The 3RS guys had no problem cutting the lobster claws off. Lionel could have modified the car body to accept the KD for 3RS as they have. They don't like the lobster look and guess what. 99% of the regular customers don't like the horrible distracting thumb tack.

Rod Miller

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Maybe some of the loudest critics of the thumbtack should get together and design a bolt-on hidden tab add-on for the Lionel trucks.  Looking at the design, it appears that you could replace the existing coupler shank with your own design that offered the hidden coupler tab.  Take that screw out and bolt on your "improved" coupler.

Why should we. We'll just buy MTH.

Rod Miller

romiller49 posted:

Like I said before. The 3RS guys had no problem cutting the lobster claws off. Lionel could have modified the car body to accept the KD for 3RS as they have. They don't like the lobster look and guess what. 99% of the regular customers don't like the horrible distracting thumb tack.

Rod Miller

For what it's worth, I really don't think that "99% of the regular customers don't like the horrible distracting thumb tack", as 99% of the Lionel customers do NOT participate on this OGR Forum, and have no idea that something changed!

SIRT posted:

I'm spoiled by Lionel's great PS series hidden un-couplers. I wont go backwards in time with this ugly old PW Disc concept with these higher priced cars. 

Looks like MTH will get my freight car $$$.

I agree. The PS series was the best.

Lionel went from the hidden armature plates on the higher quality PW pieces, to more use of thumbtacks overall as the business dwindled toward the end of that era. To me, the "new" version represents a return to low quality. I'm won't be buying any.

Dave

I didn't know there were so many rivet counters here.

because these are "toy trains"  the trucks are just fine.

if I don't like them I will just cut the tack off.

easy!

Hot Water posted:

romiller49 posted:

Like I said before. The 3RS guys had no problem cutting the lobster claws off. Lionel could have modified the car body to accept the KD for 3RS as they have. They don't like the lobster look and guess what. 99% of the regular customers don't like the horrible distracting thumb tack.

Rod Miller

For what it's worth, I really don't think that "99% of the regular customers don't like the horrible distracting thumb tack", as 99% of the Lionel customers do NOT participate on this OGR Forum, and have no idea that something changed!

I was under the impression that this forum represented 100% of the O gauge market. I stand corrected.

Rod Miller

   The tack, or lack of it, would not phase my choice on a car I really wanted, and to compare coil couplers to manual is hardly fair.

Hidden tacks, and the plate type are harder to bullseye over a uncoupling track, but do look much better. Klines plate is a pita though; no shank tab and getting a finger to the vertical tab forward of the axle, just below the shank, to push it back, isnt easy. The hand of god here doesn't carry a stick. Id rather have dummies than keep track of where the stick is.  Plus you sort of need an L shape in spots (kline)

The vertical uncouplinng action on tabs are my favorite; tack or plate, because the cars pretty much stay put. But the actual coupling of the horizontal slide tab is better. I.e., I'd rather have a good tab than anything, losing remote uncoupling isnt a deal breaker for me.  I did like the airhose than acted as a tab. That was pretty cool. (Whose?)

The attempt to satisfy the scale folks is something I'm all for, but it should have been focused on easing the kd installs on the body imo. I think that is where most of the work lies anyhow.(?) But if the body tooling was done, this may have been the best option for the comprimise overall. 

I have no body mounted couplers, or even any mounted between truck and ca. But articulated shanks are less prone to derail, though they can be a pita to couple if they have poor centering.

Where the truck mounts do shine is short shank coupling in curves.

Easily breakable "hardware" is what will detour my choices on pricier items overall too. I think I'll be avoiding that truck unless the cost of new trucks for a car, plus the car, seems reasonable.

I wouldn't opposed to cars with no couplers/trucks if the price reflected it. They are just miscellaneous hardware to me, I look at the sides/tops of cars. (Even scale, underside detail is 100% wasted on me if I cant see it from a normal viewing position. Knowing those little details are there and others that might be seen are ommited seems kinda redundant unless you model wrecks)

Everyone has to make their own decision on what they are willing to live with.  For me, I have always liked the Lionel cars, but not with the new couplers. for me , it will be MTH unless Lionel goes back to the hidden tab coupler.

To me, and despite Mike R's explanation/rationalization in that old thread, Lionel did not need to make the change to a "one-size fits all" approach to its truck and coupler design for all of its scale-sized cars.  

Instead, Lionel should have purchased the tooling and/or production rights (word on the street it's still available) to the tried-and-true Weaver 3-rail die-cast sprung trucks with half-moon disc uncoupling tabs and the die-cast 2-rail trucks.

Then, they could have continued to offer the "Weaver" 3-rail trucks & couplers on the not-as-detailed LionScale cars.  It's what former Weaver 3-rail customers were accustomed to anyway!  As for the 3-rail scale folks wanting to add Kadees, they would simply remove the claw coupler while keeping the die-cast truck...just like they've always done.

And they could have continued to offer their own line of highly-detailed scale cars with their really nice hidden-tab trucks/couplers--with zero risk of confusing assembly line workers regarding which truck/coupler combo (Lionel or Weaver) they needed to use on which cars since since the two lines of cars were built in separate locations--the former Weaver (now LionScale) in the USA, and the Lionel scale cars overseas.

Sometimes (yes, just sometimes ) there's no need to change a good thing!

And the real icing on the cake (read money-maker) would have been Lionel's aftermarket/separate-sale opportunities for both the "Weaver" die-cast 3-rail trucks & couplers and the die-cast 2-rail trucks for those of us looking to upgrade the thousands (maybe even hundreds of thousands!) of Weaver freight cars currently owned/operated with the original Weaver plastic trucks (& couplers on 3-rail cars).  

We all know how scarce the Weaver die-cast trucks have become.  To this day I'm hoarding as many as I can get my hands on for use in my Weaver freight car upgrades and 3-rail scale conversions.  Love them!

CNJ #1601 posted:

To me, and despite Mike R's explanation/rationalization, Lionel did not need to make the change to a "one-size fits all" approach to its truck and coupler design for all of its scale cars.  

in your opinion

Instead, Lionel should have purchased the tooling and/or production rights to the tried-and-true Weaver 3-rail die-cast trucks with half-moon disc uncoupling tabs and the die-cast 2-rail trucks.

maybe they tried and failed

, Lionel could have easily continued to offer the "Weaver" 3-rail trucks & couplers on the LionScale cars,

again in your opinion

bigdodgetrain posted:

CNJ #1601 posted:

To me, and despite Mike R's explanation/rationalization, Lionel did not need to make the change to a "one-size fits all" approach to its truck and coupler design for all of its scale cars.  

in your opinion

, Lionel could have easily continued to offer the "Weaver" 3-rail trucks & couplers on the LionScale cars,

again in your opinion

No kidding!!  Of course my opinions are "in my opinion" because, well, they are my opinions!!  Everything after "To me" was my opinion, but thanks for stating the obvious as I'm not sure other Forum members would have figured out that my comments were my opinions.

Seriously, do we really need to preface every reply to a thread on a model railroading forum with a "the following comments are just my opinion" statement?? 

Kinda rediculous. "Let's equip the cars with thumb tack couplers so folks can remove them more easily" anyway.

It would have made almost as much sense to offer the cars with no couplers at all.

Thumb tacks are hideous my opinion based on the fact they look terrible.

The only thumb tack equipped rolling stock I ever owned were some MTH passengers cars. They were sold off and replaced with k line equivalents with hidden uncoupler mechanisms.

The "harder to bullseye " isn't really a factor if you creep your train across the uncoupler while holding the button down. When the coupler passes over it, it will open.

Not a fan of the thumb tac. To me it looks cheap and is a move back in time, but for some strange reason it costs more. 

I also received the Lionel PM & C&O cabooses. I'm not a fan either of the thumb tac. Looks terrible. Definitely 2 steps backwards. I also pick up a MTH PM caboose that was just released. See photos below.

New MTH PM caboose just released this week