Who is currently making scale length passenger cars without the tab? Most of my fleet is Golden Gate Depot and I just cut the tabs off. I only have one set of Lionel scale cars and I just cut them off as well.
I'm not sure about the Atlas cars though.
Charlie
Toy trains - thumbtack OK
Scale model trains - thumbtack does not belong
I will not buy any unit with a thumbtack
Doug
It’s not so much the couplers as the garbage trucks. This new truck looks like crap and if they’re gonna put the same junk on the passenger cars they can keep em and I have quite a few on order
Matt Makens posted:It’s not so much the couplers as the garbage trucks. This new truck looks like crap and if they’re gonna put the same junk on the passenger cars they can keep em and I have quite a few on order
Bad news. The inferior new thumb tack trucks and couplers are also on Lionel's new passenger cars. They look absolutely horrific, as I saw first hand at the York Show. Unfortunate, as the passenger cars themselves look terrific. The only good news is the Lionel dealers have plenty of old new stock to fill in the gaps to our collections, until Lionel comes to its senses. That is virtually certain to happen, as their sales take a nose dive.
I wish someone from Lionel would comment on these posts, but they appear to be like Nero, as Rome is burning.
irish rifle posted:
wish someone from Lionel would comment on these posts, but they appear to be like Nero, as Rome is burning.
They already did a few pages back.
MartyE posted:SIRT posted:I bet the one Mom & Pop overseas supplier went out of business, moved on or raised the price.
So Lionel had to deviate from the better design. Like Weavers die cast spring T&C shortage we experienced for a long time, we are sometimes at the mercy of the foreign supplier. I'm guessing that's what happened.
On another note: all companies should supply air hoses on the couplers. Even RMT gave us that nice addition!
You can read this post as to why they were changed...
Love Mike, but this is utter nonsense.
irish rifle posted:MartyE posted:SIRT posted:I bet the one Mom & Pop overseas supplier went out of business, moved on or raised the price.
So Lionel had to deviate from the better design. Like Weavers die cast spring T&C shortage we experienced for a long time, we are sometimes at the mercy of the foreign supplier. I'm guessing that's what happened.
On another note: all companies should supply air hoses on the couplers. Even RMT gave us that nice addition!
You can read this post as to why they were changed...
Love Mike, but this is utter nonsense.
I don’t disagree.
irish rifle posted:Love Mike, but this is utter nonsense.
If you read the entire thread Marty gave the link to , Mikes not the only one to blame:
"I designed the new LionScale trucks to match the height of the Weaver truck. So the cars are the same ride height. The trucks are a direct replacement."
Dave Olson
Engineering Manager
Lionel LLC
IMO Lionels best trucks are the ones offered on their steesided reefers for the last several years. Die cast, hidden uncoupling tabs, and sprung trucks that actually function. They practically roll around the layout by themselves.
And as far as ride height, here they are on a flatcar from 10 years ago:
RickO posted:irish rifle posted:Love Mike, but this is utter nonsense.
If you read the entire thread, Mikes not the only one to blame:
"I designed the new LionScale trucks to match the height of the Weaver truck. So the cars are the same ride height. The trucks are a direct replacement."
Dave Olson
Engineering Manager
Lionel LLC
Hi Dave:
Appreciate the response. My point, and I suspect the point of many other loyal Lionel buyers of their scale line, is not to assess blame. None of us is perfect and Mike is a great guy. We have all made more than our share of mistakes in our lifetimes. The point is that Lionel has made a major mistake by abandoning one of their greatest innovations over the years and one that they have rightly touted for many years as ground-breaking and best of class, namely, their die-cast sprung trucks and couplers with hidden uncoupling tabs, for cheap thumb tack trucks and couplers, thereby disenfranchising the vast majority of their buyers for the very few 3RS and 2R group who wish to switch the couplers to KD couplers.
Many of us are significant Lionel customers and regrettably we will not buy any Lionel freight or passenger cars with these new inferior trucks and couplers. The good news is that there is still time to reverse this ill-advised decision. In addition, it is obvious that many of the top Lionel distributors were as shocked as your loyal buyers were, as this decision came out of nowhere, and was not based upon any market surveys or input from those distributors, as Ryan Kunkle of Lionel candidly admitted at the October York Show. This was also very obvious from the comments of the top Lionel dealers at the Show. Check this thread and speak to your distributors, and you will see that what I am saying is accurate.
Please speak to senior management at Lionel and express our concerns. As loyal Lionel customers, we express these concerns with the best interests of Lionel in mind. Hopefully, this terrible decision will be reversed very soon. Otherwise, you can expect Lionel sales to plummet. Thanks.
irish rifle posted:RickO posted:irish rifle posted:Love Mike, but this is utter nonsense.
If you read the entire thread, Mikes not the only one to blame:
"I designed the new LionScale trucks to match the height of the Weaver truck. So the cars are the same ride height. The trucks are a direct replacement."
Dave Olson
Engineering Manager
Lionel LLC
Hi Dave:
Appreciate the response. My point, and I suspect the point of many other loyal Lionel buyers of their scale line, is not to assess blame. None of us is perfect and Mike is a great guy. We have all made more than our share of mistakes in our lifetimes. The point is that Lionel has made a major mistake by abandoning one of their greatest innovations over the years and one that they have rightly touted for many years as ground-breaking and best of class, namely, their die-cast sprung couplers with hidden uncoupling tabs, for cheap thumb tack trucks and couplers, thereby disenfranchising the vast majority of their buyers for the very few 3RS and 2R group who wish to switch the couplers to KD couplers.
Many of us are significant Lionel customers and regrettably we will not buy any Lionel freight or passenger cars with these new inferior trucks and couplers. The good news is that there is still time to reverse this ill-advised decision. In addition, it is obvious that many of the top Lionel distributors were as shocked as your loyal buyers were, as this decision came out of nowhere, and was not based upon any market surveys or input from those distributors, as Ryan Kunkle of Lionel candidly admitted at the October York Show. This was also very obvious from the comments of the top Lionel dealers at the Show. Check this thread and speak to your distributors, and you will see that what I am saying is accurate.
Please speak to senior management at Lionel and express our concerns. As loyal Lionel customers, we express these concerns with the best interests of Lionel in mind. Hopefully, this terrible decision will be reversed very soon. Otherwise, you can expect Lionel sales to plummet. Thanks.
You nailed it dude! Keep the pressure on Lionel - Olsen & Company have good intentions, but they seem to be out of touch with reality on this issue - as the really screwed the pouch "BIG TIME" on this issue. When reality strikes home - hope they have their resumes up to dated.
I can't wait to see what's on the milk cars. The delay is probably so they can put the finishing touches on screwing those trucks up as well! I'm not as PO'd about the tack as I am about the lack of articulation. I've replaced all the older non articulated trucks on my older scale rolling stock to the articulated trucks for better operations.
This is all about increasing profits by producing a cheapened product! Time will tell how this works for them. New old stock for this consumer until they come to their senses!
To me the tack isn't a huge problem. 30 seconds with a Dremel will take care of that. I do miss the articulation. My question is why people are willing to overlook MTH not having rotating bearing caps but not the Lionel issues.
Starting to see missing plastic bolster washers on these new cars. Some have only one. Without them the trucks or car will rock. Lionel needs to review production quality going forward.
So if your cars shake, rattle n roll, you might want to pull the trucks and perform a quick check.
On three of the four loops on my layout, there are Lionel ("trestle type") serious grades. My consists are usually about 10 cars + engine in length. On some rolling stock I had to glue the claws in place or use 1/8" W strips of electrical tape or they would continually uncouple. The most serious problems were with the old style MPC plastic trucks.The metal ones seem to hold a bit better. I never thought that the thumbtack coupler was a good design, especially so, when you relied on a plastic tab for the spring action to keep it closed.
Dennis LaGrua posted:On three of the four loops on my layout, there are Lionel ("trestle type") serious grades. My consists are usually about 10 cars + engine in length. On some rolling stock I had to glue the claws in place or use 1/8" W strips of electrical tape or they would continually uncouple. The most serious problems were with the old style MPC plastic trucks.The metal ones seem to hold a bit better. I never thought that the thumbtack coupler was a good design, especially so, when you relied on a plastic tab for the spring action to keep it closed.
Unfortunate, but not surprising at all. I won't have any problem with the new Lionel freight cars with the inferior trucks and thumb tack couplers, as I won't buy any. I will continue to fill out my Lionel collection with old new stock. When Lionel reverses this disastrous decision, which is inevitable as their business will certainly sink because of it, I will return to buying. I will be sending the President of Lionel my letter over the Christmas Holidays regarding this subject.
Fellow Forum Members - As I promised, I sent the letter below on December 31, 2017 to Lionel President Howard Hitchcock through the Lionel Gateway concerning Lionel's decision to abandon its industry-leading die-cast sprung trucks and couplers with hidden uncoupling tabs on its scale freight and passenger cars and replace them with inferior trucks and thumb tack couplers. In the letter, I quoted many of you without naming you or your screen names. Thank you for your terrific insights! I followed up with Mr. Hitchcock through the Gateway on February 3, 2018. To date, I have received no reply from Mr. Hitchcock, or anyone else at Lionel, not even the courtesy of an acknowledgement of receipt of my letter. To say the least, this is extremely disappointing and does not represent good customer service.
Mr. Howard Hitchcock
President, Lionel LLC
6301 Performance Drive
Concord, NC 28027
December 31, 2017
Dear Mr. Hitchcock:
I hope this finds you well and I wish you and the entire Lionel team a Happy New Year!
I have been a collector and operator of Lionel Trains for many years. I have spent many thousands of dollars on Lionel products over the years and plan to buy more Lionel products in the future. Indeed, I believe that I have been one of your most loyal customers.
Among my most prized possessions is my collection of Lionel PS-1 Boxcars. Indeed, I have purchased virtually every one Lionel has manufactured up to now. I also have most of the PS-4 Flatcars with PiggybackTrailers. I have also purchased hundreds of other Lionel Standard O Freight Cars and approximately 50 Lionel Standard O engines, including three versions of the Vision Line GG-1.
When you were named President of Lionel on April 18, 2014, you stated:
“The potential for growth and opportunity that have been a part of Lionel’s 114-year history is stronger than ever and being responsible for the continuance of that legacy is a role both Chris [Elrod] and I take very seriously.”
Great quote! It is for this reason that I am writing you today, as I wanted you to be aware of a recent decision that Lionel made, which I believe has placed your plans for growth in serious jeopardy.
For many years, going back at least to the early 2000s, for its Standard O Rolling Stock, Lionel has utilizing die-cast metal sprung trucks with hidden uncoupling tabs. These trucks and couplers have been touted by Lionel time and time again over the years, and rightly so, for their functional value and excellent appearance.
A couple of examples follow. In the Lionel Classic Trains Volume 1 2003 Catalog, on page 64, in describing the PS-5 Gondolas, Lionel stated: “The realistic die-cast operating couplers work smoothly magnetically and manually without a hanging ‘trigger-disc’ for a more prototypical appearance (emphasis added).” I could not have said it better. In the Lionel 2005 Train Catalog Volume 1, on page 80, in describing its Standard O Freight Cars, Lionel stated that such cars included: “Die-cast metal sprung trucks for improved tracking, especially through switches.” Again, spot on.
The Lionel Standard O Passenger Cars were equipped similarly for many years as well. For example, in the Lionel 2008 Train Catalog Volume 2, on page 84, in describing the Union Pacific 18” Aluminum Passenger Cars, Lionel indicated that the features included: “Die-cast metal sprung trucks with rotating bearing caps and operating couplers with hidden uncoupling tab[s].”
Recently, Lionel decided to abandon its industry-leading position and to migrate to vastly inferior trucks and ugly thumb-tack couplers for its Standard O Freight and Passenger cars. This was done with little fanfare and less than full transparency in your new Catalogs.
This decision caught virtually everyone by surprise. The majority of my colleagues who attended the October 2017 York Show were unaware of this change. What I found even more surprising, however, was that many of your top distributors who attended the Show were not aware of this decision either. Your distributors were rightly concerned about the potential resulting loss of business. This was a stunning decision, and a major step backwards for Lionel, in my opinion and the opinion of many others.
Exactly why this decision was made is shrouded in mystery. At the October 2017 York Show, I spoke to a young Lionel employee named Ryan Kunkle. Unfortunately, Ryan was very defensive about the decision to migrate to the inferior trucks and couplers and the rationale for it. All he could say was that it was done to accommodate 3RS and 2R collectors and operators, so they could change the couplers more easily, who he acknowledged constituted the very small minority of Lionel customers.
In terms of the potential impact on the vast majority of Lionel customers like myself and many others who loved the Lionel die-cast sprung trucks and couplers with the hidden uncoupling tabs that had been the Lionel standard for many years, what he specifically stated was: “If you don't buy any more Lionel freight or passenger cars, someone else will.” While I’m sure Ryan is a fine young man, that was a terrible attitude to demonstrate to any customer, and far worse to a longstanding and loyal customer like myself.
In response to another question I asked, Ryan admitted that Lionel had not done any market research or conducted any surveys of their customer base or distributors before making this decision. While I admire Ryan’s candor, as someone who has worked with marketing and sales organizations my entire career, the failure to conduct any due diligence before making such a significant change to a longstanding and highly successful business model, and the failure to recognize the significant risk of potentially disenfranchising the overwhelming majority of Lionel's loyal customer base and distributors was absolutely shocking.
Clearly, Lionel has made a major mistake by abandoning one of its greatest innovations over the years and one that the company has rightly touted for many years as ground-breaking and best in class, namely, its die-cast sprung trucks and couplers with hidden uncoupling tabs, and replacing them with inferior and ugly thumb tack trucks and couplers. This has disenfranchised the vast majority of the company’s distributors and customers for the very few 3RS and 2R group who wish to switch the couplers to Kadee couplers. This makes absolutely no sense.
Candidly, I suspect that the real reason Lionel made this move was to save money by switching to these new inferior and less functional trucks and couplers. However, if cost was the issue, the far better approach would have been to simply increase the price of the Standard O Freight and Passenger cars. Customers will always pay a little more for quality. Another approach would have been to limit this change to the Lion Scale line of products only.
Unfortunately, bur predictably, many of the individuals who I spoke to at the York Show, and many others who participate on the O Gauge Forum, have indicated that they will not buy any Lionel freight or passenger cars that contain these new inferior trucks and couplers. Count me as one of those. Believe me, I would love to purchase some of the new Lionel PS-1 Boxcars, PS-4 TOFCs with the 40 foot trailers, and passenger cars, but that will never happen unless Lionel reverses course and manufacturers them with die-cast sprung couplers with hidden uncoupling tabs.
I thought it might be worthwhile to include for your review a sample of the comments that appear on the O Gauge Forum on the thread: “Lionel Thumb Tack Couplers.” They are eye-opening.
“Kinda ridiculous. ‘Let's equip the cars with thumb tack couplers so folks can remove them more easily anyway.”
“I was just at Nicholas Smith trains this past week and saw the cars with the new trucks. Ugly, ugly, ugly. Most of the truck is now plastic! Only the bolt on sides are die-cast, as is the coupler itself. As others have mentioned, it is no longer a sprung truck. The springs are in a fixed holder and are just for show. No more Lionel car purchases for me.”
“It’s not so much the couplers as the garbage trucks. This new truck looks like crap and if they’re gonna put the same junk on the passenger cars they can keep em and I have quite a few on order.”
“IMO Lionel’s best trucks are the ones offered on their steel-sided reefers for the last several years. Die cast, hidden uncoupling tabs, and sprung trucks that actually function. They practically roll around the layout by themselves.”
“The new Lionel thumb tack couplers are incredibly UGLY and represent a major step backwards for Lionel. Agree also that the decision to accommodate the 3RS and 2R group, while disenfranchising the vast majority of Lionel buyers, makes absolutely no sense. Indeed, it is one of the worst decisions I have ever seen in the model train industry (it reminds me of Coca-Cola's decision a number of years ago to change Coke's formula, and we all know how that turned out). If you want to really see how ugly these couplers are, take a look at them on the beautiful new passenger cars Lionel is just coming out with. Finally, like many of the posters here, if Lionel does not come to its senses and reverse this disastrous decision, I will not buy any of their new freight or passenger cars.”
“I'm in the 3RS camp and everything gets Kadee's. If their marketing was aimed at getting more 2 rail scale modeler or 3RS guys to buy their cars because converting them was easily done. They should have done a little more research. Their bread in butter is the traditional 3 rail hobbiest. Keeping them happy should be priority one.”
“You should first keep your main customers happy and buying. Before I started converting. I thought Lionel had the best truck coupler setup. Scale modelers will figure out how to get the trucks right and the couplers mounted if they want the car.”
“Hopefully, this terrible decision will be reversed very soon. Otherwise, you can expect Lionel sales to plummet.”
“I won't have any problem with the new Lionel freight cars with the inferior trucks and thumb tack couplers, as I won't buy any.”
“I think the new couplers are a giant step backwards. Lionel's scale cars were, IMHO, almost perfect before the change. I will not buy any of the new ones.”
“To me, and despite Mike R's explanation/rationalization in that old thread, Lionel did not need to make the change to a "one-size fits all" approach to its truck and coupler design for all of its scale-sized cars.
Instead, Lionel should have purchased the tooling and/or production rights (word on the street it's still available) to the tried-and-true Weaver 3-rail die-cast sprung trucks with half-moon disc uncoupling tabs and the die-cast 2-rail trucks.
Then, they could have continued to offer the "Weaver" 3-rail trucks & couplers on the not-as-detailed LionScale cars. It's what former Weaver 3-rail customers were accustomed to anyway! As for the 3-rail scale folks wanting to add Kadees, they would simply remove the claw coupler while keeping the die-cast truck...just like they've always done.
And they could have continued to offer their own line of highly-detailed scale cars with their really nice hidden-tab trucks/couplers--with zero risk of confusing assembly line workers regarding which truck/coupler combo (Lionel or Weaver) they needed to use on which cars since since the two lines of cars were built in separate locations--the former Weaver (now LionScale) in the USA, and the Lionel scale cars overseas.
Sometimes (yes, just sometimes ) there's no need to change a good thing!”
“It would have made almost as much sense to offer the cars with no couplers at all.”
“Thumb tacks are hideous my opinion based on the fact they look terrible.”
“Yuk the thumb tacks really ruin a otherwise great looking car. Lionel please bring back the hidden tab couplers.”
“I think the bottom line with this issue will be lost sales. It's not the end of the world, but it's the end for me buying Lionel freight cars.”
“For me and many others placing the new un-sprung composite truck with it's fixed knuckle and large hanging thumbtack on Lionel's new era fully detailed scale freight car is not an improvement. It would have been easier to just let the scale coupler guys who wish to modify their equipment cut the large knuckle off.”
“The only good news is the Lionel dealers have plenty of old new stock to fill in the gaps to our collections, until Lionel comes to its senses. That is virtually certain to happen, as their sales take a nose dive.”
In closing, there is still time to reverse this ill-advised decision, and resume producing the Lionel O Scale Freight and Passenger Cars with the classic die-cast sprung trucks with hidden uncoupling tabs. Hopefully, that will occur very soon for the good of Lionel, your customers and your distributors.
My apologies for the length of this letter, but I thought it was important to present you with a complete picture. I look forward to hearing back from you. Thanks.
Sincerely,
Patrick J. Caulfield
TCA #02-54929
Member - O Gauge Forum
As I see it there is no going back for Lionel. Just my opinion, but I think the old design is rather unlikely to reappear.
What we can all hope for is a design that will satisfy both camps. Lionel would be remiss if they are not investigating a cost effective way of doing this. The question as to whether their sales are being adversely affected by this change is certainly not something most here can address.
As a K-D enthusiast, I love the new design but I do not deny the ugliness of the thumbtack and I understand the frustration it has created. I think they should have done this better.
But the claw people should not be so cavalier as some here about " the scale guys can just cut the claw off and be done with it."
Terry Danks posted:As I see it there is no going back for Lionel. Just my opinion, but I think the old design is rather unlikely to reappear.
What we can all hope for is a design that will satisfy both camps. Lionel would be remiss if they are not investigating a cost effective way of doing this. The question as to whether their sales are being adversely affected by this change is certainly not something most here can address.
As a K-D enthusiast, I love the new design but I do not deny the ugliness of the thumbtack and I understand the frustration it has created. I think they should have done this better.
But the claw people should not be so cavalier as some here about " the scale guys can just cut the claw off and be done with it."
LOL! The so called "claw people" represent 90% plus of the Lionel buyers. The claws have been on Lionel cars for many years, going back to at least the 50s. They are the ones who have been disenfranchised by Lionel's decision. And the issue is not just the UGLY thumb tack couplers. There are major concerns with the trucks as well. Die-cast sprung trucks navigate smoothly through switches and less than perfect track. Not so with the new inferior trucks, which derail easily. And the 3RS and 2R minority must still pay for both the cars and the additional trucks. This represents the worst of all worlds. The simple solution would have been for Lionel to continue to manufacture their freight and passenger cars with their industry leading die-cast sprung trucks and couplers with hidden uncoupling tabs for their core customers and a 2R version for the small minority of their buyers, the same that Weaver did and Atlas does.
Don't MTH's Premier freight cars have hidden uncoupling mechanisms which can easily be converted to Kadees?
Hal
HMS2035 posted:Don't MTH's Premier freight cars have hidden uncoupling mechanisms which can easily be converted to Kadees?
Hal
Their definition of easy is different from mine. Atlas has the best IMO. Hidden tabs, easy conversion, and rotating bearing caps.
Weaver made one truck. It was both 2 rail and 3 rail.
I will buy Atlas O cars with their excellent trucks and hidden couplers tabs as I have for many years. I sent all my Lionscale C&O Hoppers back to the dealer or sold them on Ebay at a loss. They kept jumping the track going over my Atlas O #5 switches. The trucks seemed too light and stiff. Forget about pushing them in reverse. A string of twelve or more would jump the track.
I will buy Lionel engines for their excellent Legacy sound systems.
If quality of these items should become an issue, I won't buy any trains.
Repeating that "these trucks are inferior in every way" does not make it so.
The sprung/unsprung matter is a red herring having nothing to do with either how the trucks look or how they perform. These are not real freight cars, heavily laden with cargo for heaven's sake! This is a psychological issue in the eye of the beholder.
The plastic parts are not in sight. And the plastic is incredibly hard ABS. Try taking a modeling knife blade to one!
The rolling friction on these trucks is marvellously low. They actually perform far better than any other truck on my layout and I consider them an improvement for that reason alone.
I have experienced precisely zero derailments on the 15 cars presently on my layout with these new trucks. I can't address the issue of the thumbtacks getting hung on switches though as the tacks are removed before my cars even hit the track. Is this really a problem or another made-up problem like the springs being non-functional? How bad do your track switches have to be to snag the tack? Hard for me to see how track that bad could possibly allow locomotives to pass.
I have only one certainty as to how this little battle will play out and that is, the marketplace will win in the end, as it always does. I can live with that.
While I agree the thumbtack is indeed an ugly distraction and Lionel should investigate a remedy to satisfy the people upset by its presence, I do not at all agree that the trucks have the other egregious deficiencies stated here.
Repeating that "these trucks are inferior in every way" does not make it so.
I have to disagree.
Customer perception is everything.
Yes, there are times when I have been confounded, even annoyed, by model train manufacturers’ decisions in some regards.
But in the three-rail world, I simply can’t get upset over minor appearance issues. So much of my rolling stock produced from a period ranging from the 1950s to today has the thumb-tack couplers that I can easily dismiss them as easily as I can the center rail.
That’s not to say I agree with Lionel’s decision — the no-thumb-tack truck design was an improvement, in my opinion, and similar designs by MTH and Atlas suggest the market generally supported hidden-tab coupler releases.
But I’m not willing to say I will never buy another Lionel car because of Lionel’s decision. And I suspect many other buyers will also not take such an absolute stand on that point.
So it comes down to whether Lionel sees a perceptible drop in sales. If the company does, it might revert back to the improved trucks, assuming there isn’t some substantial unstated reason for that decision.
My only real complaint, regardless of which manufacturer we’re talking about, is these companies’ decisions not to be more transparent on such points of contention. They seem to follow the now-standard business philosophy that all decisions are proprietary and therefore none of their customers’ business. It doesn’t have to be that way, but it is. I have seen it in the decision-making process of companies such as Apple and Microsoft as well as companies like Lionel and MTH.
They seem to follow the now-standard business philosophy that all decisions are proprietary and therefore none of their customers’ business.
Can anyone think of any businesses that work differently? I cannot.
In our little world of toy trains:
I don't think the real Lionel Corp. asked anybody when they went to the sheet metal framed diesels or when they went from metal freight car trucks to plastic.
Terry Danks posted:Repeating that "these trucks are inferior in every way" does not make it so.
The sprung/unsprung matter is a red herring having nothing to do with either how the trucks look or how they perform. These are not real freight cars, heavily laden with cargo for heaven's sake! This is a psychological issue in the eye of the beholder.
The plastic parts are not in sight. And the plastic is incredibly hard ABS. Try taking a modeling knife blade to one!
The rolling friction on these trucks is marvellously low. They actually perform far better than any other truck on my layout and I consider them an improvement for that reason alone.
I have experienced precisely zero derailments on the 15 cars presently on my layout with these new trucks. I can't address the issue of the thumbtacks getting hung on switches though as the tacks are removed before my cars even hit the track. Is this really a problem or another made-up problem like the springs being non-functional? How bad do your track switches have to be to snag the tack? Hard for me to see how track that bad could possibly allow locomotives to pass.
I have only one certainty as to how this little battle will play out and that is, the marketplace will win in the end, as it always does. I can live with that.
While I agree the thumbtack is indeed an ugly distraction and Lionel should investigate a remedy to satisfy the people upset by its presence, I do not at all agree that the trucks have the other egregious deficiencies stated here.
So I guess you do not agree with Lionel's own description of its die-cast metal sprung trucks, repeated many times over the years in its catalogues: “Die-cast metal sprung trucks for improved tracking, especially through switches." While you may have had a good experience with the new trucks, to suggest that they track better than the former trucks is simply not accurate. Additionally, the tracking and derailing issues have nothing to do with the thumbtack couplers. The issue is with the trucks themselves.
C W Burfle posted:They seem to follow the now-standard business philosophy that all decisions are proprietary and therefore none of their customers’ business.
Can anyone think of any businesses that work differently? I cannot.
In our little world of toy trains:
I don't think the real Lionel Corp. asked anybody when they went to the sheet metal framed diesels or when they went from metal freight car trucks to plastic.
Oh, I have read of many manufacturers who relied on customer input in the design of their products. One of the best-known examples was IBM in its earlier years. It didn’t become a computer giant by accident. The development of its business machines made it a leader in the typewriter field while other manufacturers were slow in developing electric models. The subsequent development of its mainframe computers were strictly based on one-on-one customer interaction.
You think Lionel wasn’t using customer feedback in making a product line aimed at an upscale market? Product development was a big part of Lionel’s success, and that came from hands-on market research from blue-collar type managers at the time.
Where both Lionel and IBM ran into trouble was when executives without a finer sense of truly building a customer base took over. That big-business mentality has destroyed many a big corporation. Some are arguing that’s happening to Apple now.
Lionel makes overtones in that regard nowadays, but I don’t think either Ryan Kunkle or Dave Olson are equipped or authorized by Lionel to take on the level of input Lionel once welcomed from customers. Not surpringing, really, given that Lionel is like a lot of LLCs, where the failure of the company doesn’t drag the owner down to financial ruin.
Best example of this in our modern business world: Sears Holding Co., which controls both Sears and Kmart. Each was at different times the largest retailer in the nation. But each became so successful that they became arrogant, dismissing rivals’ more nimble efforts on the assumption no one could supplant their position. Well, they did, and this was in the years before retailers faced struggles from online sales. It was pure business sense.
Hopefully our train makers will keep that in mind when they make their business decisions.
I just bought a few ps 50t trucks off the bay to get rid of the thumb tacks on my new 50' express boxcar.
C W Burfle posted:Repeating that "these trucks are inferior in every way" does not make it so.
I have to disagree.
Customer perception is everything.
As long you perceive that partial plastic plastic is better than all diecast. Sprung trucks that don't function are better than those that do, and of course that hideous dumbtack hanging down is better than the hidden uncoupling plate between the axles.
C W Burfle posted:They seem to follow the now-standard business philosophy that all decisions are proprietary and therefore none of their customers’ business.
Can anyone think of any businesses that work differently? I cannot.
In our little world of toy trains:
I don't think the real Lionel Corp. asked anybody when they went to the sheet metal framed diesels or when they went from metal freight car trucks to plastic.
While you are correct that there are a number of firms that make that mistake, there are many others, like the one I work for, that do not. The ones that ask for and value input from their customers and distributors before making significant changes to their products have a much higher likelihood of success. This is Marketing 101, and a point I covered in detail in my letter to Mr. Hitchcock, which is printed in full in this thread.
This basic marketing principle is all the more applicable when the product is one that has been, and continues to be, highly successful. The classic example is Coca Cola's infamous decision to change the formula for Coca Cola and come out with New Coke. How did that work out?
Jim, Very well put & quite ACCURATE!
Lionel will probably take corrective action when they review the poor sales numbers due to this change. Until then, let’s move on. 
irish rifle posted:The classic example is Coca Cola's infamous decision to change the formula for Coca Cola and come out with New Coke. How did that work out?
Well, if we're dealing with "classical" examples, there is Canon's scrapping their original lens mount for the EF mount. Howls of derision were heaped upon them.
Cries of "I'll never buy another Canon!" echoed through the photography world.
Try to find anyone today who thinks Canon should still be using their original lens mount! To this day you can get original Canon FD mount lenses for a pittance. Superb lenses! But orphans.
Businesses sometime have to make tough decisions and, to paraphrase the great man, "you can't please everybody all the time!"
There are three types of Lionel buyers here . . .
X = I love the new trucks as they roll so much better and make it a breeze to change to scale couplers and even change back if I choose.
Y = I HATE these new trucks! They're plastic! The thumb tack is hideous and the springs are all phony! I'll never buy another Lionel car!
and . . .
Z = I have no strong feelings either way or am just oblivious to the change.
If Y >> (X+Z), as so many here seem to think, Lionel will change. Otherwise, they likely will not. The real question is the size of group Z. I suspect they are the largest group of all!
There are three types of Lionel buyers here . . .
X = I love the new trucks as they roll so much better and make it a breeze to change to scale couplers and even change back if I choose.
Y = I HATE these new trucks! They're plastic! The thumb tack is hideous and the springs are all phony! I'll never buy another Lionel car!
and . . .
Z = I have no strong feelings either way or am just oblivious to the change.
There are also people who will buy whatever Lionel makes no matter what. They are not oblivious, they seem to have a fear that Lionel will go under if they don't buy enough.
I fall in the X category. I install kadees on my toy trains. I appreciate the ease of conversion with Lionel's new truck. I understand why some do not like the thumbtack. I don't care that the springs do not compress. I am not sure why that matters...but to each their own.
I do not buy everything Lionel makes. I do prefer Lionel rolling stock over MTH. I believe Atlas has the most accurate and detailed rolling stock. Lionel is a close second (depending on the piece of course) and MTH is a distant third (to me).
Now that Lionel's rolling stock is even easier to convert to Kadees, if given the choice between an Atlas O or Lionel PS1 box car I would buy the Lionel version. The principle reason is that I prefer Kadees over Atlas 2R scale coupler. The Kadee is far superior. Installtion of the Kadee draft gear box on Atlas O rolling stock is a PITA!
So I am in the minority as I greatly apprecate Lionel's new truck.
T4TT posted:I fall in the X category. I install kadees on my toy trains. I appreciate the ease of conversion with Lionel's new truck. I understand why some do not like the thumbtack. I don't care that the springs do not compress. I am not sure why that matters...but to each their own.
I do not buy everything Lionel makes. I do prefer Lionel rolling stock over MTH. I believe Atlas has the most accurate and detailed rolling stock. Lionel is a close second (depending on the piece of course) and MTH is a distant third (to me).
Now that Lionel's rolling stock is even easier to convert to Kadees, if given the choice between an Atlas O or Lionel PS1 box car I would buy the Lionel version. The principle reason is that I prefer Kadees over Atlas 2R scale coupler. The Kadee is far superior. Installtion of the Kadee draft gear box on Atlas O rolling stock is a PITA!
So I am in the minority as I greatly apprecate Lionel's new truck.
My exact feelings! I don't have a hard time putting KD's on most Atlas cards though.
I don’t worry about the type of coupler i use I am the engineer, my conductor has to worry about cutting cars (at least for the next 3 years when he graduates).
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