Lionel Why No Vision Line Products

Lionel has not offered VL items in every catalog since they came up with VL.

 

The original idea was that VL features would infrequent offerings of a few very select locos , i.e. the 2-10-10-2 and the 0-8-8-0.

 

I think Lionel "watered down "the idea when whistle steam found its way into the regular signature line. There by creating a reason/excuse to raise prices on the "regular stuff", and at the same time forcing Lionel to come up with "new" VL features like the depleteing coal load to keep the VL locos a "premium".

 

Having said that, the Vol 2 catalogs typically don't contain "earth shattering" new offerings like the vol 1.

 

I'd like to see them offer more VL rolling stock, I think Lionel is only scratching the surface on these, the possibilities are endless.

 

 

Because instead of offering Vision Line products they decided to offer Vision Line pricing on all the regular products

Based on what I had heard from Mike Reagan, Lionel was giving everyone a break after the Vision line Bigboy.  I guess they did not want to put out another 2000 loc on the heels of the BigBoy.

Pat,

 

Here's my take... One of the attractions of Vision Line is that Lionel hasn't over-saturated enthusiasts with VL product and features.  If there were a VL product in every catalog, even die-hard Lionel enthusiasts might grow tired.  So pacing the crowd is important.

 

Then of course, there is price.  Given the ridiculous $1700 MSRP on Lionel's non-VL FEF, the next VL steamer could easily top $3K MSRP.  And many of the folks who could afford that may still be recovering from past purchases and recent pre-orders due tomarrive in the next six months.

 

And nowadays, it really seems like $1,000 is table-stakes for the scale market.  Even Atlas-O's recent Gunderson Maxi-IV well car can easily crank out into GGD/3rd-rail territory for folks ordering multiple sets with fully populated double-stack cars.

 

I've been saying this for a couple of years now... but the folks who can buy this stuff may already have a basement overflowing with trains.  So importers really need to plan carefully when to announce and delivery truly top-end products.  None of us has infinite financial resources, yet most of us could easily rack up $1,500 worth of toy train purchases at the blink of an eye if we're not careful.  And that's just from unplanned clearance sales that dealers and forum sponsors offer from time to time.  Add to that the big ticket items when catalogs are released, and we're into some very serious spending.

 

Too much Vision Line would only put many folks past the point of no return, IMHO. 

 

David

Matt, in one sentence you said it all.  Bravo!!!! 

 

David

i have heard they are going to have a preview of the new VL at york

Perhaps Mike should check the inflated prices on the FEF, E7 AA's and the latest round of premium-priced diesels like the SD-60E.  I'd wager many folks here will spend more on some of those jewels COMBINED than they did on one VL Big Boy.  

 

At that rate, who needs a new VL product in the mix?

 

David

 

I really don't want to spend 2400 on a visionline allegheny .

Feeding frenzy! 

My first Vision line loco, UP genset, paid full blown retail $650 and worth every penny. Then i bought 2 CP Rail Hybrid Gevos at $725 each and still worth every penny. There is something special about those locos and I love them. They are a great addition to the collection. Now regular Legacy locos are $650 retail and they just run of them mill stuff, nothing special about them. I just cant see spending all the money. David, youre right I already have a basement full of trains, lots of really great stuff. Now I have a number in my head that I fell things are worth and a steam engine like the FEF is worth about $1100 tops, a big articulated id go $1500 with the exception of my VL Big Boy which I paid $2000 for and I feel that was over priced. I wouldnt buy another loco at that price, I dont see the value in my Big Boy. Its super nice but I still dont see $2000 worth of loco. The palin and simple fact of the matter is, I dont need to buy a bunch of trains any more. I can be pretty picky. Now I will say that if I didnt have to spend $4500 putting a new motor in my truck I would be getting a pair of 3rd CNW SD9's spendy at $670 each but that is one of my favorite engines since I was a kid and I got the Atlas N scale CNW SD7/9 for my birthday. My very first nice engine and now I have three of them one of which I installed sound in just for fun. The simple fact is that Lionel needs to realize that their pricing is exceeding what prople can reasonably justify spending on trains, they are just trains and there is nothing special about them. A lot of us can be picky and we can also wait to buy Lionel on the secondary market. How many Berkshires, SD40's, GP9's and Alco S2's can you really sell now? Im not buying, in fact ive got stuff to sell

The OGR Forum hasn't decided the next VL release....

 

VL isn't in every catalog.  Makes it special when it is.

 

I'm with RickO, would love to see more VL rolling stock.  Lionel has an untapped 'gold mine' with it.

 

As a side note, Lionel's die-cast steam locomotives have surpassed my price point, both VL and regular.  Other's may choose to pay those prices...I do not.  I have a choice and will voice it with my wallet.

 

This is coming from the guy who owns 4 VL Challengers and 2 VL BBs.  Not to mention too many regular Legacy steamers...

IMO the next VL locomotive will be the Allegheny in next years Vol. 1 catalog. What new gadget can they put in it?  

 

I think the msrp will be in the area of $2900.00 

 

I would rather see more VL freight cars as mentioned before.

Lionel said from the very start that new features that made their debut in the Vision Line would migrate to the rest of the line if and when it was feasible.  They never said that a feature like whistle steam would remain Vision-Line-only.  Vision Line was just going to get the new features first (and essentially serve as a test platform).

 

Andy

Companies have limited resources (Personnel, Time, Money, Facilities) to use on product development. If you use x percentage of those resources on one/some, there are less resources available for others.

 

Lionel is spending much of its tech resources on the development of an IPad app which I have complained about and have been excoriated for on this forum for mentioning. I still hold the same opinion. They spend lots of resources developing that **** Ipad app and, therefore, have less to spend on the advanced trains like Vision Line products. 

 

Do I know this to be true? Of course not. Only Lionel knows. That's my opinion. Sosumi.

 

 

 

 

Great points all..

 

I wish Lionel would get back to pushing the envelope with both sounds and statement, such as offering a Santa Fe 1-1a/b combination.

 

The problem is that other manufacturers have been offering EXTRAORDINARY trains, like 3rd Rails Trainoif Tomirrow, SD7/9s, and El Capitan. Clearly, MTH has captured the European train market, and although not my thing, these pieces are quite exquisite.

 

A rehash of old tooling is a safe route, and I can understand that. But now that things are BTO, how can you really argue against offering a "daring" locomotive?

 

I find myself gravitating to original four offering - what an amazing lineup! Perhaps, just perhaps for now, the Vision is limited?

Pat good on you as a Lionel Dealer challenging the the circle L.  I want to see a VL engine offering annually.  I think Mike Regan said on one of his Notch 6 appearances that Lionel wanted to give folks a chance to recoup after paying top dollar for the Big Boy.  It would be a mistake for Lionel not to have a VL engine offering in Vol I 2016.

The NS SD60E is all new tooling of a new model. That should have been labeled a Vision Line model.

 

Andrew

No mystery, Lionel has the catalog planned 2-3 years in advance and no Vision items were planned for this year. They will return next year. 

There's not even a Santa Fe engine in this catalog...steam or diesel.

 

NO, the Lion Chief don't count.

 

Look at the SD38's and list of road names on page 21. Who comes up with this stuff?

A Santa Fe diesel would out sell any one of those names listed on page 21...even if it was another fantasy engine, or another re-run!  

Correct me if I'm wrong here so we can get this straight:

 

2014C1: VL Big Boy is cataloged but actually announce months earlier at York.

2014C2: no VL, but everyone's wallet is relieved.

2015C1: no VL, but announced prior to catalog so there was no spoiler, and some wallets still recovering.

2015C2: no VL, most people upset as majority of wallets are have clean title on VL Big Boy, and rumors are hungry for the next big hit. Big swing and a miss for Lionel in the VL owners club.

 

If we got a VL in the 2015 C2 catalog, it would not make it every catalog. Does every one have that straight? All of you Lionel press secretaries go back and dream up some other excuse for Lionel. Maybe something like at this point what difference does it make.

 

I would say that it is time for Lionel to announce the next thing. They keep saying that their manufacturing has finally recovered. I don't believe them. I don't think the definition of recovering is delivering less. The market is hungry for not only a VL locomotive but additionally VL freight. Time for Lionel to deliver. If they bring nothing to York then I believe it is time to burying the VL soldier. I will miss you greatly VL.

NO!

Why does expectations of VL have to be large engines? Why not improve the smaller, switchers, Docksiders, etc. with state of the art details and Legacy control? Lion Chief new switchers are a step in the right direction.

For every 2000.00 large VL, might sell 3 or 4 of the smaller detailed VL switchers.

Andy I agree, whistle steam on signature does not water down VL. But it does elevate the signature line locomotives. Making these locomotives better and paying for the R&D with VL is all part of the business. Race car technology making its way to the soccer mom in her minivan. This is just the advancement of technology. Don't fear technology advancement everybody. This is a good thing. Whistle steam is a success. It merits migration to all locomotives, even HO is standing up and taking notice. My hats off to Lionel.

I doubt it.

I doubt this is true, probably just a good excuse that he was baited into saying with a softball question. Happened probably something like this:

 

Guy asking question: "So Mike why is the no Vision Line in this catalog, were you guys giving everyone a break from the huge success of the Big Boy."

 

Mike: "yes, that is exactly it"

 

Great line of questioning, that got to the heart of the issue.

So don't. I do... Please Lionel catalog this item.

Charlie, I think you have confused Lionel's catalog planning cycle with their average product delivery cycle!!! 

 

After all, I'm still waiting for that CSX "How Tomorrow Moves" boxcar that was catalog'd FOUR years ago.  Staggers my mind to think Lionel actually planned SIX or SEVEN years ago to even have that car catalog'd. 

 

David

I'm still waiting on the AC-4 from 2008C1.

To be a Vision Line Locomotive it has to be:

 

O Scale

A locomotive never produced in O Scale

 

All New Tooling

 

The Norfolk Southern SD60E is a new O Scale Locomotive, never before produced in O Scale and will be made from all new Tooling.

 

That means the NS SD60E is a Vision Line Locomotive

 

Andrew

I thought to be a vision line diesel the body would have been die-cast metal?

I fail to see why the new SD60E should/could be a Vision Line product. Based on the catalog information, it does not meet the spirit of the Vision line concept.

 

Charlie

Where did you get this idea for what a vision line is? 

 

Challenger, Hudson, Big Boy... All been done before, and not all new tooling.

 

The only people that can say what is and is not vision line is Lionel. The SD60Es are your ordinary signature diesels. I hope they are nice the best example yet of Lionels new tooling policies, but doubt you get close to a vision line for that cheap.

Priced in the stratosphere so there can be a price war bringing it down to what the true MSRP should've been.

 

Rusty

'It's a guy thing.', 'Testosterone territory', 'Tim the Tool Man Tenet' (You know, 'Bigger is better!'?), 'My dog's bigger 'n your dog!', etc., etc., blah, blah.

 

Just ask the wife. 

 

Of course, there's always the pragmatic perspective...'In order to package 25 pounds of a shade-mechanic's worst nightmare, you need a 25-pound sized package....something in the 2-4-6-8 category oughta do it!'

 

As for the price, it's pole-vault simple...keep raising the bar until they can't clear it....keep raising the price until it won't sell.

 

And, since I was excoriated in another thread for suggesting that stagnant-to-declining middle class wages signaled an economy in malaise, I guess the celebration of selling out VL's at nose-bleed prices should continue.  It's what we consumers should do in a robust growing/expanding economy! yeeee.......haw.

 

Elliot......I agree with you 100%

 

But, not that anyone really cares.....

 

Meanwhile, back at the ranch....

 

KD

 

 

 

 

An EMD GP40-2 and GMDD GP40-2W produced with Metal Bodies and frames, plus fixed pilots would most likely qualify for being a Vision Line diesel-electric locomotive model.

 

A Vision Line freight car would be something like a an ACF Center Flow Pressure Aide 5000 Cubic Foot Capacity 4-Compartment covered hopper that is built out of realistically thin sheets of stainless steel. There would be four internal compartments based on actual blueprints. It would have pressure-differential piping and valves that would function. A miniature pump would load and unload the Pressure Aide covered hoppers.

 

Andrew

Honestly, this whole BTO pre-order process has become both entertaining and laughable --especially for Vision Line products.    In the "good ole days", only larger dealers like Charlie Ro and Nicholas Smith Trains (among others) took on the risk of ordering large quantities of any given SKU -- and thereby getting quantity pricing from Lionel and passing a good purchase price on to consumers.

 

Nowadays, like all things digital/internet, the BTO pre-ordering process has brought an almost "disruptive" element to prior norms.  In one sense BTO has leveled the playing field among dealers large and small, but in another sense it's made the dealer competition highly visible.  And Vision Line only amplifies the distance between meaningless and ridiculous MSRP's vs. more realistic street-prices as dealers trip over each other competing for pre-order business.  Nothing is sacred in the public spotlight, and all bets are off.  

 

David

Probably right.

I have to give Lionel marketing big credit on this one. There is a segment of the hobby that has become so obsessed with the words Vision Line, they're willing to dump perfectly great engines cheap just to dig real deep to buy the same engine in a black box with sound upgrades.   Never mind the last VL reissue casting wise had zero additional add on exterior details then the Legacy JLC  BB it replaced.

IMO, which means nothing, It's one thing to offer up NEW fully detailed VL models with all the bells and whistles, but its quite another to reissue the same old stuff with updated features, call it VL, then double the cost. 

 

Joe

I am not sure how a Vision Line Diesel could improve on previous offerings. My 10+ year old Lionel F3s have sound, smoke, lights including cab and markers, operating couplers and Odyssey I cruise. Legacy versions have improved Odyssey II and more sounds. The dummies have markers, smoke, and remote couplers. Detail is superb. Diecast will not improve detail and likely compromise it. 

Lionel could offer it with different pilots to satisfy everyone like K-Line was doing a dozen years ago.

I personally would not be interested in a Vision Steam engine unless it was a never before release of a New York Central engine like an H-10 Mikado or K-5 Pacific but I am not holding my breath for one of those.

 

Pete