Lionel you must be making a joke!

With new scale engines, super detailing, great sound systems, computerized control and pricing that matches scale brass in some cases, we might forget that Lionel trains are still toys and the company needs to get as many miles out of model as possible.  This obviously means slapping as many paint schemes on a generic prototype style body as possible which means we have to be willing to weigh the toy design versus prototype reality and our desire to own such a model, and the wallet's willingness to open.  Of course if youre not happy with some aspect you are within your right not to buy it. I recently passed on a 4-6-0 myself because it wasnt close enough to protoype but i did purchase the NH L1a because it was closer than not.   Cars are another great example...how many prototype paint schemes are applied to car body types that never carried that scheme?  Prototype modeling, which i admire greatly, is best left to the smaller scales where you can actually fit prototype scenes in your basement and purchase/modify scale models to suit...in my opinion anyways.

Fortunately 3rd Rail has done a number of SP Moguls. M4, M6, maybe more. Seen quite a few at auction recently going for very reasonable prices.

Pete

Do you mean class lights?…..markers are on the rear of the train, ……

Pat

@PeterA posted:

...placing the marker lights on the boiler front rather than on the sides of the steam chest...

A point of continuing steam locomotive education...

Next thing you know is folks will be complaining about fantasy paint schemes...

Rusty

You mean there are fantasy schemes??? Oh, the horror!

The OP has every right to feel the way he does but I'd be up in arms if this was 3rd Rail or another company known for their adherence to the prototype.  This has never been Lionel's focus.

-Greg

Rich, my mistake!  Others, looks like Lionel lost only one order, mine

Oh well, makes my wife happy, less money spent on trains

@harmonyards posted:

Do you mean class lights?…..markers are on the rear of the train, ……

Pat

Markers are on both ends of the engine, and are only lighted when that part of the locomotive is the end of the train.  PRR, for example, had both classification lights and marker lights on the front of their engines through 1940.  In 1940, the PRR stopped using classification lights and removed them, leaving only the marker lights.

Nothing new here, likely a result of Lionels "one size fits all" tooling.

More bang for the buck I suppose

Smaller locomotives seem to be the biggest offenders , as larger models tend to be more RR specific per the prototype.

The H10 a few years ago was merely a consolidation with a bel paire firebox.

@CAPPilot posted:

Markers are on both ends of the engine, and are only lighted when that part of the locomotive is the end of the train.  PRR, for example, had both classification lights and marker lights on the front of their engines through 1940.  In 1940, the PRR stopped using classification lights and removed them, leaving only the marker lights.

That was the Pennsy marching to their own drum.

Most other railroads didn't have marker and class lights on the front end of the locomotive, only class lights.  On 1630 you have only class lights and your choice of colors is green, white or off.  A lever near the bottom of the class light moves internal green lenses into place.

Cropped from my photo.

Rusty

@Farmall-Joe posted:

With new scale engines, super detailing, great sound systems, computerized control and pricing that matches scale brass in some cases, we might forget that Lionel trains are still toys and the company needs to get as many miles out of model as possible. 

No, not toys. That only encourages sloppy standards. They do, however, get a little slack cut for offering this stuff to begin with. Lionel high-end products are, for the most part, well-made, very good-to-excellent scale models (though the too-long Pacific still baffles me), if not up to certain other standards. Not far off.

Lionel NYC J3a. Class lights. Painful. Mine were removed. I still bought the loco. Didn't want to cut off my nose to spite my face.

I can see how there would be frustration on how far off this model is from the prototype it is trying to represent considering it is a BTO model.  While BTO is all about protecting the manufacturer from overproducing a model and then having a blowout sale at a loss for unsold units taking up warehouse space, I would expect more care in the detailing.  I could get over the incorrect spacing and / or size of the drivers, the undersized boiler (and smokebox ), but add on details are not hard to produce and produce correctly.  That is the cheap part of the model.  I also noted the lack of steps to the foot boards and several other items that really do make this offering look more toy like.  I see it as potential lost.

As others have mentioned, there are not a lot of small steam locomotives in the market.  If the effort is going to be made to produce it how much more effort is really required to produce it just that much more accurately? 

@GG1 4877 posted:

As others have mentioned, there are not a lot of small steam locomotives in the market.  If the effort is going to be made to produce it how much more effort is really required to produce it just that much more accurately?

Apparently more effort than they were willing to expend!

I am curious as to why more isn’t done using 3D printing. There are resins that can be used in place of wax to make lost wax castings. Likewise metal can be 3D printed. Seems to me both would be less expensive than having a mold made for casting. I am thinking specifically of the various steam chests Lionel could be doing on these Moguls. Of the ones Lionel has cataloged as well as the dealer specials, none match the prototype of the engine they claim to be modeling.

Pete

Nit picking in o scale and o gauge is to me an exercise in futility.  Enjoy the ride.

@Norton posted:

I am curious as to why more isn’t done using 3D printing. There are resins that can be used in place of wax to make lost wax castings. Likewise metal can be 3D printed. Seems to me both would be less expensive than having a mold made for casting. I am thinking specifically of the various steam chests Lionel could be doing on these Moguls. Of the ones Lionel has cataloged as well as the dealer specials, none match the prototype of the engine they claim to be modeling.

Pete

Pete, printing thousands of parts with 3D printing is probably not price or schedule possible.  Printing a few parts is one thing, printing a thousand is another.

While you can print metal directly, lost wax casting is a totally different matter. Only time Lionel would have to take is coming up with the STL file. Look at the Precision Scale catalog if you think its too time consuming to make a part.

Pete

IMO, printing a part the size of the Mogul cylinders in metal would be both way more expensive and too slow.  I don't see any manufacturer rushing out to 3D print detail parts, I'm assuming they have a reason.

Don't get me wrong Pete, I'd love to see that happen so we'd get more accurate models, but I just don't see it happening right now. OTOH, a 3rd party could probably create a nice cottage industry printing correct parts.

I'm not a rivet counter, so it doesn't bother me, but it seems like Lionel could do better when selling at a premium price and advertising road-specific detailing.

Well 3D print is used for prototyping teeth prosthetics why can't this be done with train parts. Furthermore Prusa a 3d printer manufacturer prints thousand of parts for their printers everyday.

There is company planning to 3D to print custom automobiles.

Again I not taking about 3D printing the part, only the master used in casting process. Brass engine manufacturers have been using this process for over 80 years. Dealer offering special runs have minimum of 40, not thousands.

Pete

@Shawn_Chronister posted:

Well 3D print is used for prototyping teeth prosthetics why can't this be done with train parts. Furthermore Prusa a 3d printer manufacturer prints thousand of parts for their printers everyday.

You must be kidding right?  Have you ever had dental work done?   Yes, I had a single tooth dental implant done, and they did indeed 3D print it.  For one tooth, it was right around $4,000 when the smoke settled, I don't think I want to pay that for a model train steam chest.

@Norton posted:

There is company planning to 3D to print custom automobiles.

Again I not taking about 3D printing the part, only the master used in casting process. Brass engine manufacturers have been using this process for over 80 years. Dealer offering special runs have minimum of 40, not thousands.

Let's hope Lionel discovers that option and takes your lead.

If a product is not a good representations of a prototype, it is not a model.    You can call it what  you like, but it is not a model.    As a model railroader, I seek out models of real prototypes.    It means I buy fewer because the probably cost more, but they make me happy.

Mine are toys, most are prewar, while my newer stuff is more detailed (circa the end of the last century) but what I like most in this thread are the real Steam Engine educators, discussion about class lights, marker lights, steam chest...I can read about it elsewhere, but here we have people who actually worked it, did it, made them go, stop, smoke and holler, it is those commentators who add to my table tales, and make me appear smarter than I really am. 

All, thanks for the broad discussion on the merits/costs of detailing locomotives.  But my original point here was simply that for some reason Lionel chose a style of marker lamp (class light) that was never seen on any SP locomotive.  (at least they did add SP style number boards, go back to see the prototype photo).  

If you look at the loco just above that in the catalog, you will see marker lamps (in the UP position) which would at least have made the locomotive look somewhat what like an SP engine.  So, even with a standard body mold, that can be done.

Finally, this is not a low end set of locos, they are in the Legacy line.  I was hoping that someone at Lionel, (Dave, you are the SP person) would not have let this happen.

End of my rant.

I think this can be a worthwhile discussion because hobbyists often are trying to get a handle of how accurate a certain locomotive is. Some modelers might be interested in the model but not experts that on that specific railroad's roster (I am often in that camp). That said, this topic isn't really about jokes, is it too much to ask for topic titles to relate to the subject matter at hand?

@PeterA posted:

I like accuracy in lighting too.  Those images give the impression the green class lights, indicating a second section was following the scheduled first section, are lit on the Lionel models.  Seems like all manufacturers like to use green.

For me, I would much prefer they were off (regularly scheduled) or white (extra).  On my layout I don't have room for a second section, and my trains are never scheduled (unless you count the sometimes after diner run).  So in a way, all my trains are extras (white).  However, for my era my engines should not have class lights at all, but those that do I am disconnecting them if they are lit.

As for the red marker lights, I don't need the front ones to ever be lit since I don't back my engines often.  The rear would never be used that often unless the engine is doing pusher duty and is at the rear of the train.  I guess my wish for the rear marker light (and class light if on the engine) would be the capability to turn it on/off, but if not just off.  Maybe add an on/off switch.

I know several members like those green and red lights being on, but for me I would just prefer they were off.

Have you, PeterA, contacted Lionel with these concerns?

@Greg Houser posted:

The OP has every right to feel the way he does but I'd be up in arms if this was 3rd Rail or another company known for their adherence to the prototype.  This has never been Lionel's focus.

3rd Rail's latest Mikado: $1700.00 (Manufacturer's price and street price)

Lionel's latest Mikado: $855 (street price)

Difference: $845

Folks just have to decide how much a few more details like classification light positions are worth to them.

In the end it comes down to what you are looking for in the hobby. To me something like lights in the wrong position or such wouldn't bother me, probably because to be honest I also likely wouldn't know it was wrong for that prototype...but if someone wants scale realism , especially at the prices we are talking about, I can understand someone being unwilling to spend on something that doesn't meet their needs.