Lionel's "new" Southern Crescent Limited

I think Southern's new model of 4501 is modeling the excursion scheme that she wore from the mid-60's to the mid 90's.  She had a red roof during that time.  It will be interesting to see when the '01 emerges from the shop later this year what color she is.

Mr Nance, I asked this question about the Southern and did not get a response.  A few years ago, Lionel had a Southern steamer that ran on O54 curves.  Is this new one different from the old one aside from the fact that it will run on O36?  I, too, am a fan of the 1401 in the Smithsonian.

Oh I agree completely. And I'm sure Lionel knows they can sell more mikados if they paint them is green opposed to black, because that's what's more memorable then one thinks of Southern Railway steam engines.

I don't expect Lionel to be historically accurate when it comes to their models. I look to companies like weaver and 3rd-Rail for those kind of products. I think that Weaver's streamlined Ps-4 was an excellent model.

Anybody else question Lionel's depiction of what shade of green Southern used? That color they use now, is not Virginia Green. Lionel's shade of green is to dark I think.

I currently have 13 Southern locomotives (some steam and some diesel) and green is fine with me. 

If the new model does indeed run on O36, one of them may find a place on my roster.

I should get mine this afternoon or tomorrow.  I will try it on 0-36 and o-48 but I think its rated for 0-54, though.  

It depends which Southern Ry Mike that Lionel wants to model. The correct ORIGINAL color of an MS-4 Southern Mike should indeed be black. However, when Paul Merriman purchased the #12 (originally SRR #4501) from the Kentucky & Tennessee, and took her the TVRM, in order to run excursions on the SRR, Master Mechanic, Steam Mr. Bill Purdy painter #4501 Southern Ry GREEN. Thus, Lionel could offer their  2-8-2 model both ways, i.e black or green and it would be correct.

Also, SRR #4501 (NOT 1401, which is a PS-4) is currently not painted ANY color (other than protective primer), since she is under complete overhaul in the TVRM shops.

Sorry, I caught my error, regarding the cab number of the Sou. mikado vs. the Sou. Ps-4.

Ben

Southern changed over to Sylvan Green from Virginia Green during the early 1930s. I forget the exact year but sometime when browsing my TIES Magazine Library I will search for the article. Also, during early WWII Southern changed from Real Aluminuim paint to Imitation Aluminium [which is actually a gray as described with its paint number] two reasons: [1]real aluminuim "went to war" and , [2] the acid wash at the Yard's locomotive/car washers soon destroyed the real aluminuim finish.

Info that will cause you to sleep sounder I'm sure.

As regards 4501 we are lucky to have 3 paint options enabling us to spend more money:[1]the green fan-trip engine, [2]the K&T #12 in coal dust black and,[3] the standard Southern Railway freight workhorse black engine paint/ trim scheme with the red tender deck and graphite smokebox and firebox.

I would like to see this Legacy PS-4 engine come out in post-WWII colors.  Lionel's 2006 model of this engine in post war colors was nice, but it did not have Legacy.

Well if you model prior to Southern selling 4501 to the K&T, then I still say MTH did a far better job with the model.

Ben

#4762 was an early Ms-1 Class as opposed to #4501 which, as you know, was a Ms Class and Southern's first Mikado. The Ms-1 was was a standard USRA light design Mikado brought to the Southern just after WWI.  However, even as a "light" Mikado, the Ms-1 is 20,000 lbs heavier and has 3,000 lbs more tractive force than the earlier Ms Class. # 4762 was built at the Schenectady Works and its Class of Locomotive spent most of its work time on the Eastern Lines in the rolling Piedmont area of North and South Carolina and Georgia---Charlotte, Spartanburg, Columbia, Savannah and, a few toiled on the Western Lines----Memphis Chatanooga.

Mine arrived an hour ago.  I'll post a short review separately.

Video Lee???!!!

It's a beautiful model! That red roof is a bit of a surprise, as are those white running boards.

I too wish Lionel or MTH would look at schemes other than the original Crescent Limited of 1927 - 1934. Southern Railway dropped the two toned passenger cars and train name on the tender after 1934 due to the Depression for cost saving reasons. 

I would like to obtain a Ps-4 someday, but for now I am satisfied with my 1992 Lionel 4501. Having a nice set of Southern heavyweight passenger cars in solid Pullman green with either the early serif-ed or postwar block style lettering should be a good seller to railroaders in the south. 

Lionel just posted an instructional video of this engine in the blue comet scheme...good video but could they please do it in full frame/ screen and also HD...

Are you guys gonna weather those pretty Pacifics.

The red roof is incorrect but it is still a beautiful engine. Both Mike Wolf and his brother-in-law Mark Hipp knew that in 1992. I am suprised that Lionel reverted to the red roof after getting both their earlier #1396 and #1403 correct.

I did early paint and trim research on the Spencer Shops numbered Ps-4s [and the PAs] for MTH and finally came to realize that they felt a red roof marketed much better than green.

Admittedly, market size was not a small risk for an infant company just starting out with scarce capital. But I suggested that they ride over to D. C. and visit the Green-roofed #1401 in the Smithsonian, but it still didn't change their druthers. However, to his credit, Mike shipped my #1396 Crescent Limited Proto 1.0/QSI with a green cab roof--marked in big black letters on the outer carton "green roof".

The SHRHA and TIEs Magazine's various Editors and Writers have over the years researched the Ps-4 paint schemes and concluded in their 5-issue series on the Ps-4s that a red cab roof was a rairity and did not occur on the Spencer and /or Pegram Shops engine numbers modeled by MTH and Lionel. [The G Scale Aristocraft Crescent Limited is painted correctly].

The research explaining the "red roof syndrome" that seemed have the most weight relates to an event on Erlanger Hill south of Cincinnati on Southern's CNO&TP, which was a favorite photo op for the rail press when the "Those Aristocratic Harrison Pacifics" first hit the rails and, as it turned out right from the Builders, a Ps-4 with a red cab roof was photgraphed. However, a Western Lines writer and photographer reported that when first shopped at Ferguson it was changed to match the fleet. Photo Journalists such as Ben Roberts who prowled the Southern's Eastern, Central and Western Lines extensively wrote that he never saw a red cab-roofed Ps-4 although he discovered one with flat black on AGS.

Western lines Painter Jim Jordan's rendition of the gorgeous #6689 Queen & Crescent sitting in Birmingham on the AGS is all Green'n Gold including the Green roof. The flyer attached to the rear of my copy emphasized the extent of Jordan's research to get the paint shade and decoration of both the locomotive and the non-matching passenger Cars correct. The Cars coupled are the "dull" Pullman Green with AGS markings as opposed to the Sylvan shade so often depicted in paintings and on models of the Southern.

Then, there are those Lionel red-roofed Southern Asheville Division Ts-1 Mountain Class[those"Magnificient Mountains"] that were shopped at Spencer. Lionel received color photos and historical data regarding the flat black cab roofs. The Assistant to the then President responded via letter, " thanks we have filed the information".

In the long run none of this is worth "spit" but it is the record for those interested in pursuing it.

Here is a picture of one of my Lionel Ps-4's, with a few paint modifications I did.

1. The inside of the bell has been painted red.

2. The underside of the headlamp shade has been painted red.

3. A white stripe has been added to the bottom of the pilot.

I love this model very much. The only big issue I have with it is that those aren't the correct running boards for 1403. Also Lionel, can we please get some break hose details on the front pilot, thanks!

I was sitting here thinking about getting the new Ps-4 when I noticed in the catalog the number was going to be 1393. So I said great a new road that will match my Crescent Limited Set from 2003. Then I just saw the pictures and was shocked to see Lionel painted the roof wrong!!!! What where they thinking and why!! It still a good looking locomotive but what gives with the incorrect painted roof. I have 3 Ps-4 on my roster and a K-Line scale light pacific in black lettered and stripe for the 1st Crescent Limited. There's only one other road number that I would acquire into my collection and that would be Ps-4 #1401 which I hope someone will produce and paint a correct version. 

Glad to hear that you think the same thing I thought Sean! Also I've noticed on Lionel's latest Ps-4 that the drivers, the pilot, and the handrails are not longer painted green, as they were on the 2003 model. I found the green drivers, pilot, and handrails to be very ascetically pleasing, thou they were perhaps not prototypical.

I was doing some research, and in Curt Tillotson, Jr.'s book Southern Railway Steam Trains Volume 1 - Passenger, there is not one photo of 1393. So it's hard to find what other inaccuracies might be lurking on Lionel's latest Ps-4.

Looks like from the comments and pictures posted that there are some significant color differences between the old Crescent and the new version.

The 2003 Crescent had its drivers and front truck wheels painted green, and the pilot, matching the shell. The new Crescent has all those wheels painted black, as well as the pilot. That's different from the catalog picture, incidently. As a note, the 2006 PS-4 also has black wheels and pilot, prototypical for that engine.

Also, as noted above, the roof on the 2003 Crescent is the correct green; on the new Crescent it is red. On the 2006 PS-4, the roof is also green.

It has also been reported that the new Crescent has a satin finish with sheen. Not sure about the 2003 Crescent, though I've never heard anyone comment on such a finish. My 2006 PS-4 has a flatter finish, not real flat, but no real sheen is evident. I haven't sat any of the engines side-by-side, however. One other difference is that the 2006 PS-4 has a brakeman's stand on the deck of the tender, which the Crescents don't have.

Looks like Lionel is still changing a few things between original versions and "re-issues," like they always did in "the old days." It'll be interesting to see if the Alton and Comet will have changes from the originals as well.

Worth a lot more than spit to me, Dewey. Thanks for taking the time to post this information - I found it very interesting.

Harrison Ps-4s 1393,1394,1401,1402 and 1403 were all Pegram Shops Engines, Pegram,in Atlanta, was previously known as "South Shops"--Southern Master Mechanic Bill Purdie's Shop. As most everyone knows, Bill, in later years became "Master Mechanic Steam" for all Southern Railway Steam Specials under SRR President Claytor.

All three of the above engines plus some others were reassigned to Spencer Shops in 1945-'47-'49. Initially Spencer had Harrison engines 1395,1396,1397,1398,1399,1400 and 1404. Eventually, postwar, Spencer got all of the Ps-4s including CNO&TP and AGS Engines. Postwar the major Shops were being converted to serve stinking diesels and Southern clustered the Ps-4s at Spencer.

The other two Shops, of the only four Shops on Southern Railway that stabled the Harrison Pacifics, were Finley in Birmingham and Ferguson in Somerset Kentucky.

Ferguson [CNO&TP] had 7 Harrison Ps-4s: 6476,6477,6478,6479,6480,6481 and 6482.

Finley Shops[AGS] had 4 Harrison Ps-4s: 6688, 6689,6690 and 6691.

According to one of the "Spotters's Guides", Spencer is the only Shop that did not elect to paint its wheel centers white or aluminium.

Here's a later shot of 1393 in my hometown

http://southern.railfan.net/im...1393charlotte638.jpg

Note the striping and the butterfly handrails.

Read the book (Locomotive 4501) by David Morgan for the history of 4501.  It is excellent.  Bill Purdie was not involved in the beginning.  The decision to paint her in the passenger colors was probably made by Graham Claytor and Paul Merrimon.

4501 is indeed a class Ms, the first Mike on the Southern.

George Lasley

I have the 6-31713 Crescent Ltd Set from 2004.  I am on the fence as to whether I should purchase the new iteration and sell the other. 

We need to be reminded that there were only 4 Crescent Limited Engines. The four operated only on the Eastern lines between Atlanta and Washington. Two northbound and two southbound with the engine change both directions at Spencer. These 4 engines were shopped out of Pegram Atlanta and Spencer in North Carolina.

There were only 3 Queen & Crescent Engines. They operated from Chatanooga to Meridian and only occasionally ventured north of Chatanooga. These 3 engines were primarily shopped out of Finley in Birmingham.

These 7 engines, all "Harrison Engines", were the stars of the Southern Railway Advertisement and Promotion Department and targeted by photographers for a period of time after 1926 until the very early 1930s. The Crescent Limited engines modeled---1393,1396 and Harrison 1403 have also been a prime target for production by the O-gauge Importers while the Queen & Crescent versions have been generally ignored. Ps-4 1401 as produced in scale by Williams in brass and MTH in diecast were not Crescent Limited engines. [K-line also produced a nice semi-scale version of the Ps-4].

These 7 engines were each uniquely equipped as regards their details and appliances depending on the shop that maintained them. For example Spencer was noted for its long "Fingernail Visor" on the headlight while Pegram had a shorter flatter visor.  The Queen & Crescent engines wore no visor until changed at Spencer in later years. Pegram Shops liked to operate its bells with rods while Spencer and others used a cord. Some had their whistle tilted forward a 45 degrees some at 25 degrees and so on and so forth.

Most of the models are painted and trimmed for what I call "marketability". That includes the "red roof syndrome" which if you believe the historical records, film and microfilm purchased and documented by the SRHA---is incorrect! In addition, according to "Spotters Guides", much the green trim on models is incorrect, for example marker lights were black, Elesco Feedwater Heaters and most pilots were painted black. And, as Larry Neal has noted, after the early 1930s the "Limited" decoration on engines and railcars was gradually eliminated as the 7 engines were shoped for routine maintenance.

WWII brought about a massive rehab and upgrade program in the Shops of Southern steam much of which had been rusting on "dead tracks" during the Great Depression of the '30s. Southern didn't have the capital to buy more diesels in 1940-41 and then in 1942 the War Department severely rationed new engine purchases in favor of Tanks and Planes.

So I guess my point is that, although the Importers have taken liberties with their decoration of the modeled Limited Engines, they are generally very attractive. And, perhaps there is some justification in that the real 1393, 1396 and 1403 were all individually different to some degree in their details and decoration.

It seems to me that, unless a person doesn't own one at all, $$ and a personal desire for the Legacy innards and new operating system is the key element as to whether one buys a new Southern Crescent Limited Ps-4. Not the slightly different decoration or minor change in details reaching from the Williams Ps-4 in 1990 until the Lionel in 2012. But of course I am an admitted, obsolete old phart!

Crescent Limited Locomotives :

1393, 1394 , 1395 and 1396

Queen & Crescent Limited Locomotives:

6688, 6689 and 6690

Note that all of them where Alco Richmond works built and mated to 12wheel 14k tender.

The Queen Bee #6482 was also the same as the other limited locomotives but was only lettered SOUTHERN.

Hey Sean

Where have you been hiding, I thought maybe you had become a Santa Fe Fan or something almost as bad.

As time wore on, many of the Ps-4s did swap their 12 wheel tenders for 8 wheel tenders taken from Ts-1 mountains. The size of tender depended on how long their run was and how often they need to replenish water. Also Ps-4 #1400 had a 8 wheel tender because #1380 took away its 12 wheeler when Spencer streamlined 1380 as the "Tennessean".         

 ----from TIES Magazine March 1994.

Southern Trivia:

The first Harrison Ps-4 to be scrapped was #1399 which needed a major overhaul.  In mid-1949 Spencer Shops sent #1399 to Hayne Yard in Spartanburg to be scrapped. The employees at Hayne were sure someone was mistaken and that no one was crazy enough to scrap a Ps-4. So, they sent it back to Spencer. End of story is that Spencer sent it back again and it finally met the scrappers torch. [caused by stinking diesels]. 

                    .......from Bill Alsbrooks, Spencer Shops emloyee 1936 to 1960.

CNO&TP #6482 that Sean mentioned above was known as Southerns "most photographed engine".

Well, that's the question, isn't it? Some of us have been discussing that question on several threads for days, now.  I think Dewey's comments are on the money, that is, it's mostly about whether it's worth it to someone to have the Legacy innerds or not.

I have the 2006 PS-4, which has the last generation of R/S 5 before Legacy, 4 chuffs per revolution, variable and controllable chuff, variable and quilling whistle, dual Fatboys, etc. (these are things the 2003 Crescent doesn't have, of course), and given that pre-Legacy engines run so well in a Legacy operating envirornment, I determined that it wasn't worth it to get the new engine. There would probably be not that much significant and noticable improvement. I also like the brakeman's stand on this engine's tender.

It's also interesting, now that the new engine has appeared, that it has the same black wheels and pilot as the 2006 version, so it looks about the same, but with a red roof. Personally, besides being non-prototypical, the red roof makes the engine look a little cheesie, but of course that's just my opinion. This color is not the more subtle Pennsy maroon, either, but a relatively bright, orange-red.

Your 2003 version of the Crescent is a very attractive looking engine. I've heard good reports about its sounds, as well. What I would do (as if it matters!) is run it in a Legacy environment (which you may already be doing) and see if you're satisfied with the performance. It would be great to be able to compare it to a Legacy engine, and see if the operating difference is appreciable. I'm thinking that you'll conclude that your Crescent operates fine, and while it doesn't have all the latest electronic whiz-bangs, it's still pretty good, and given its great looks, it's a keeper. Besides, there are so many other new things to spend money on now!

Hey Dewey,

Nope I haven't been hiding and I sure haven't joint my Father to the dark side and starting collecting the Santa Fe. I'm just making sure I'm spending some time with my 15 month old son plus working and going back to school.

Sean

Good for you and for your son. Are you still at Duke P. ?

So these are already shipping?  I am used to waiting 10 yrs for my order to arrive. 

?????

The pictures above are from people who have already received their engines.

Just an opinion - I prefer oxide red cab roofs and tender decks.  I bet most collectors of gaudily painted models are like me, although my lone Southern is quite dirty.  It might cost a bit more to offer two roof styles.

A possible solution is a quick repaint of the offending surface?

I am glad 3-rail collectors are getting picky about prototypical accuracy.  It cannot be long before you will demand accuracy in dimensions and details, too.

Yup. That's my point. If you want something, you'd better get going, at least as it pertains to these three steamers. 

Dewey,

I'm still at Duke can't believe I've been there for 12 years.