Marx windup seemingly low power, help!

As no-one else has chimed in yet I will give it a go although I am by no means the most qualified here to answer

It seems like you have done all you can to minimise friction , which is the #1 factor in dealing with clockwork locos. I would certainly expect a drop off in duration when you add more mass but your measuring looks a bit excessive still... 

Something to consider is the factor it is being tested on a pure circle and because of that you also have lateral friction in play , so it might pay to check the distances between wheels on the axles to make sure there is room for a bit of play and they are not rubbing the inside of the rails or binding too much because of the curvature they are being forced to negotiate. Clockworks get far more speed on the straights and slow a bit going into corners due to these side forces Often the speed built up on straights is what helps them get thru corners ( espescially in a worn unit with lesser torque, it relies on the momentum built up to help carry it thru corners)

My #1 advice .. get some straights in there and give it a chance to get some momentum happening!

Also you havent included pictures of the track or the radius of the curves , a tight radius will slow things and you will be wasting energy and binding as friction could be increased on all the wheels all the time?

One thing you did not mention in your pulling down or cleaning is whether you de-grimed/de-rusted the governer ( that little dish unit with the expanding weight that brakes the motor ) if it is rusty or grungy then the governer will be binding which will seriously affect the amount of power being delivered .. its like driving with the handbrake on !

Lastly there is always the possibility that over time the spring itself has lost some of its "get up and go" and you might just be at the limits of its abilities ... nothing short of a new spring will fix that sadly ( unless you have the ability and equipment to re-anneal it )

One thing tho , is that light lubrication and USE is a clockwork motors friend , often just using it and letting it run gets things loosened up a bit , they can improve over time

Hope some of that helped , but I might be speaking out of my butthole, hopefully someone else will step up and point out if they think my logic is flawed

You didn’t state what you have done with the cars. If you haven’t already, remove all the wheels and axles. Buff the axles to rid of any contamination. I also prefer to polish my wheels, but that’s me. Add a good drop of light weight oil on each axle end, then reassemble. Hopefully that will get you a few more laps.

Steve

I did clean and polish the axles. Made sure they were straight. Reassembled and oiled any friction points.

Fatman posted:

As no-one else has chimed in yet I will give it a go although I am by no means the most qualified here to answer

It seems like you have done all you can to minimise friction , which is the #1 factor in dealing with clockwork locos. I would certainly expect a drop off in duration when you add more mass but your measuring looks a bit excessive still... 

Something to consider is the factor it is being tested on a pure circle and because of that you also have lateral friction in play , so it might pay to check the distances between wheels on the axles to make sure there is room for a bit of play and they are not rubbing the inside of the rails or binding too much because of the curvature they are being forced to negotiate. Clockworks get far more speed on the straights and slow a bit going into corners due to these side forces Often the speed built up on straights is what helps them get thru corners ( espescially in a worn unit with lesser torque, it relies on the momentum built up to help carry it thru corners)

My #1 advice .. get some straights in there and give it a chance to get some momentum happening!

Also you havent included pictures of the track or the radius of the curves , a tight radius will slow things and you will be wasting energy and binding as friction could be increased on all the wheels all the time?

One thing you did not mention in your pulling down or cleaning is whether you de-grimed/de-rusted the governer ( that little dish unit with the expanding weight that brakes the motor ) if it is rusty or grungy then the governer will be binding which will seriously affect the amount of power being delivered .. its like driving with the handbrake on !

Lastly there is always the possibility that over time the spring itself has lost some of its "get up and go" and you might just be at the limits of its abilities ... nothing short of a new spring will fix that sadly ( unless you have the ability and equipment to re-anneal it )

One thing tho , is that light lubrication and USE is a clockwork motors friend , often just using it and letting it run gets things loosened up a bit , they can improve over time

Hope some of that helped , but I might be speaking out of my butthole, hopefully someone else will step up and point out if they think my logic is flawed

This all makes sense to me. I would have to buy some straights. Wouldn’t I have to disassemble the entire motor to service the regulator? I have suspected it binding but had not wanted to disassemble the motor due to the supports being punched.

thank you

How many cars and how far should a loco in good shape pull?

wadsbrau posted:

This all makes sense to me. I would have to buy some straights. Wouldn’t I have to disassemble the entire motor to service the regulator? I have suspected it binding but had not wanted to disassemble the motor due to the supports being punched.

thank you

If you can get in there with some fine sandpaper or wet and dry ,I would give that a go maybe ? lightly does it as your aim is just to remove grime and corrosion rather than etch/scratch up  the metal

Oiling it or WD-40 or similar, running it , washing and repeat a few times will allow the brake pendulum to do the cleaning for you over time as well I would think ... Marx unfortunatley are not my forte , but running it will do more good than harm, check that the expanding brake moves freely along the shaft too.

wadsbrau posted:

How many cars and how far should a loco in good shape pull?

This one is probably a "How long is a piece of string?" question lol !

So many factors will influence the reply so I will wait for someone who runs Marx clockworks to chime in a bit

@Steve "Papa" Eastman or @WindupGuy 

The guys have given you a lot of good advice so far.  You said that with 3 cars it will make 6 laps, and with 4 cars it will only make one lap of your circle.  I assume this is O27?  The number with 3 cars is a bit low; on this old video of my first trainset running, the loco with 3 cars made it about 7-1/2 laps:

There is one quirky thing that can happen to Marx governors that will cause them to stop prematurely, especially under load.  The die cast weight can deform over time, letting the end of the little wire touch the drum of the governor as it slows down.  This effectively puts the brakes on the motor and will cause it to stop, instead of slowing down abruptly.  This example shows the governor in detail, and the end of the mechanical pencil is pointing to the end of the wire contacting the drum:

I know you cleaned the axles, but did you check the car frames to make sure that they are straight, and not dragging on the car's wheels, especially going around the curves?  The Marx frame has a small embossed area around the hole, and that is the only area that should touch the wheel... otherwise, it will have a lot of drag, and will affect the run time of the windups.  It isn't unusual to find the area around the wheel bent and dragging on the wheel.  

In my experience, it is rare for a Marx mainspring to lose it's tension and require replacement.  I'm not saying it can't happen, but it doesn't happen very often.  Usually the problem is friction.  So, even though the motor is clean, make sure that there aren't any carpet fibers or pet hairs wrapped up in the axles, gears, or governor that could drag it down.  I suspect that motor has a sparker, so try taking the arm completely off (if you haven't already) and make sure the shaft for the sparker wheel is well lubed, as it can really affect run time since it spins so fast.

Final note - like their electric counterparts, the windups work better as the size of the curves increase.  I have an O42 mainline on my present layout, and I'm planning on an O54 mainline on the next one.  

And remember, windups don't have to be weak:

Let us know what you find...

Just another note for reference: I happened to have a 473SM Marx set on my layout, which has a 401 windup, tender, gondola, boxcar and caboose, so a locomotive and 4 cars.  On my mainline oval - O42 curves, plus 5 sections of straight track for the tangents - it ran a little more than 6 laps.  Your O27 circle is a lot shorter run, but would have quite a bit more friction, but I would still expect your train to make a lot more laps than what it does...

WindupGuy posted:

There is one quirky thing that can happen to Marx governors that will cause them to stop prematurely, especially under load.  The die cast weight can deform over time, letting the end of the little wire touch the drum of the governor as it slows down.  This effectively puts the brakes on the motor and will cause it to stop, instead of slowing down abruptly.  This example shows the governor in detail, and the end of the mechanical pencil is pointing to the end of the wire contacting the drum:

Thank you for the detailed reply. I will be trying everything suggested. Where is the best source of track I can get to test the radius and straights theory?

Regarding the governor. At a few points around the shell, the little wire touches the sides. If it isn’t supposed to, it must be causing drag.  What can I do to correct this issue? How much clearance should there be between the end of the little wire and the sides of the drum?

Regarding track, you can use any brand of O gauge track.  I'm partial to the track Lionel makes (or made) with the small O27 rail profile in O42 and O54 diameter curves.  The 3rd rail for the electric train won't cause any issues, but I remove it on my layout so that it has the appearance of the original windup train track.  You can usually find it at well-stocked hobby shops, or eBay, or model railroad swap meets.  

Now, about the governor:  I'm not sure if you have watched the governor in action, but when the motor is up to speed, the weight moves out and rubs on the drum, and the end of the wire moves away from the drum.  So, the wire will only rub on the drum when the train is running slow - basically at the end of the run.  With light contact, the loco will stop quickly instead of gracefully coasting; heavy contact will cause an abrupt stop.  However, what you are describing with four cars sounded like the train never really got up to speed.  With three cars, it sounded like it got up to speed, and the governor may have just took away a little distance at the end of the run.  I suspect you have a combination of issues at work, and there are other sources of drag that will need to be addressed.

So, my advice is to try everything else before attempting to work on the governor.  It will need to be removed from the locomotive, and the process is tedious.  The actual fix is easy - just clip about 1/16" or so off the end of the wire so it doesn't contact the drum - but trust me when I say the only good way to do that is with the governor out of the motor.  This involves popping the sideplate loose from the front crossmember and finagling the governor out of the loco.  Putting it back is a big challenge the first time you do it - it is likely that some of the intermediate shafts can get out of place, making it even more difficult.  

Don't get me wrong, it can be fixed.  However, I believe there are bigger gains to be made in other areas... especially since that particular governor problem will only affect the end of the running time.

WindupGuy posted:

Regarding track, you can use any brand of O gauge track.  I'm partial to the track Lionel makes (or made) with the small O27 rail profile in O42 and O54 diameter curves.  The 3rd rail for the electric train won't cause any issues, but I remove it on my layout so that it has the appearance of the original windup train track.  You can usually find it at well-stocked hobby shops, or eBay, or model railroad swap meets.  

Now, about the governor:  I'm not sure if you have watched the governor in action, but when the motor is up to speed, the weight moves out and rubs on the drum, and the end of the wire moves away from the drum.  So, the wire will only rub on the drum when the train is running slow - basically at the end of the run.  With light contact, the loco will stop quickly instead of gracefully coasting; heavy contact will cause an abrupt stop.  However, what you are describing with four cars sounded like the train never really got up to speed.  With three cars, it sounded like it got up to speed, and the governor may have just took away a little distance at the end of the run.  I suspect you have a combination of issues at work, and there are other sources of drag that will need to be addressed.

So, my advice is to try everything else before attempting to work on the governor.  It will need to be removed from the locomotive, and the process is tedious.  The actual fix is easy - just clip about 1/16" or so off the end of the wire so it doesn't contact the drum - but trust me when I say the only good way to do that is with the governor out of the motor.  This involves popping the sideplate loose from the front crossmember and finagling the governor out of the loco.  Putting it back is a big challenge the first time you do it - it is likely that some of the intermediate shafts can get out of place, making it even more difficult.  

Don't get me wrong, it can be fixed.  However, I believe there are bigger gains to be made in other areas... especially since that particular governor problem will only affect the end of the running time.

Thank you! Your reply was very helpful and concise. You have given me enough information to work on this issue.  While I have your attention :-), the tender I have had at one point in it’s history had a coupler replaced with a plastic one.  In it’s history also snapped in half. I would like to replace that with a proper tin coupler. Do you have any instructions on the best way to proceed? Removing the broken coupler and riveting a new one in its place.

It's almost that easy - drill out the old rivet, and rivet a new one in place.  The body is removed by carefully bending the tabs on the bottom of the frame straight; and when you reassemble it, the tabs may be twisted slightly instead of crimped over at a 90 degree angle to keep them from breaking off.  I like to fasten a drill bit in a vice, pointing straight up, place the rivet to be drilled on it, then use a hand drill with another drill bit chucked up in it to drill it out from the top.  Use bits that are bigger than the head - you only have to drill far enough to remove the head from the body of the rivet.  The bit in the vice keeps the rivet from spinning while you drill it out.  You can order the rivets from Grossman's Train Parts, and carefully brad them over with a small ball-peen hammer.  I use a piece of steel in my vice as a backing bar for the riveting.  You can take a couple off an old car - junk Marx cars are usually pretty cheap at train shows, or off eBay.

Incidentally, if you are interested in the finer points of repairing windup train motors, you may want to check out my book, "Windup Train Repair".  I'm happy to give advice on the forums, but the book goes into a lot more detail with quite a few pictures.