matching passenger cars for the new E7's

I can't answer your first question but the second relates to something I was once a little obsessive about.

 

We are talking about E7s and for those I do not imagine Lionel doing any engine/region-specific sounds. I know what you mean about MTH passenger/freight announcements and K-Line did something similar for some trains, like their interurbans. But Lionel hasn't taken the same course except that some add-on StationSounds diners mention a specific train or region. However to my knowledge they don't mention specific cities or station stops. 

I was waiting for Lionel to do pere marquette in this type of diesel.  Last year they did C&O with matching passenger cars.  So I thought just maybe pere marquette down the road.  Well there it is in vol 2 but no passenger cars.  I would like to order one, but I don't think that I will unless someone from lionel can confirm future passenger cars.  Oh well one less BTO for lionel.  I'll wait for MTH to do an updated one.  

How bout powered B units for those sets? 1 Powered A unit is not enough for a big heavy train.

LOS,

 

   One of my club's members has a 12 car MTH SF Premier streamline passenger train that he pulls with a ABA set of Lionel TMCC F units, only one powered A. We have 2.5% grades on the club layout. I would think one powered E units will pull most trains you want to run. If you want to see stop by the BDSME in Bethlehem Pa.

 

JohnB

Laidoffsick,

here is my lionchief plus steam engine pulling 19 passenger cars up the 2.5% grade john is talking about at BDSME. If one motor can do this, I think two motors would be ok.

 

Well I run 21" GGD cars, which are 3-4 lbs per car, with 14-21 car train, and I know for a fact my E6 A wont pull it, not even on the slightest of grades. If it would, it would just eat through traction tires anyway. There's no reason NOT to offer powered A's and/or B's, especially now that Lionel is moving towards 21" cars.

Its not about # of motors in a locomotive. Its the weight that determines pulling power. A 4-8-4 steam engine will out pull a powered F7, whether it has dual motors or a single horizontal motor.

LOS,

 

   I got one word for you...........oil. Put it on the axels of those 21" GGD cars so they roll better. The other thing you can do is buy two sets of Lionel E units. Take the shell off of one of the dummies and put it on the second A powered unit. Now you will have two powered A units with different numbers. You can put the dummies on display on your mantal. Of course try the oil first. Good luck.

 

JohnB

There's no reason NOT to offer powered A's and/or B's

 

As long as they come separately, don't "make" me buy something I don't want just to get the one thing I do want

All of my passenger cars are 18 to 21 inches in length, except for some RPO's and express boxes and reefers.  The MTH Premier streamlined cars are far and away the easiest pullers.  The Lionel cars and Weaver head end cars are next.  The hardest to pull are the Golden Gate cars, but they are full scale length, and are heavy.  I think the curve resistance of the scale length cars is the major factor - not the axles, which are excellent.  However, I'll agree that, especially in the case of GGD cars, lubrication and break-in does make a difference.  I'm all in favor of using at least two powered diesel units on trains exceeding 7 cars.

No amount of oil will make the car weigh less. Ive got an El Capitan set on the way and im wondering if two powered units are enough, those cars are heavy and pulling all 12 will be a workout on grades

Weight-on-the-drivers, eh?

That's what was nice about the way Atlas-O offered the F7's... all separately available units.  Powered A's... Dummy A's... Powered B's... Dummy B's.  Different roadnumbers too.  You configure everything based on your needs.  That's the way it should be.  I think MTH had a similar offering (to a somewhat lesser extent) for their F-units, when they re-catalog'd the Norfolk Southern OCS.

 

David

John everything I own and run gets oil before hitting the rails. The El Capitan transition car is still 4.5 lbs after oil on the axles. Just like real trains, weight, grades, and curves greatly affect how well the engines can pull the train.

I'd be happy with a caboose for the Berk.

Lionel catalogs a PM engine just about every year but never a caboose. 

Joe

Lionel has catalogued a PM caboose.  They are out there.

And often they go for quite the premium on the secondary market.  There's certainly some pent-up demand in the market for something like the Lionel 6-27605 NE style caboose in Pere Marquette livery.

 

Gryboski Trains listed one on eBay for $299 back in May of this year, but the listing shows "ended" -- not "sold".  So you may want to check with them to see if they still have it, and if they've come down from the stratosphere on an asking price.

 

Sounds like a new scale offering from Lionel is long overdue.  I'm surprised Atlas-O never did one.  How about MTH?  Anybody know???

 

David

MTH did offer a very nice PM caboose as well.  I see both at train shows now and again.

I've never seen either at any show I've attended.  Only the Lionel on Ebay and never under $200.00.  

Lionel has cataloged the scale PM Berk four times plus an assortment of other scale PM engines including a J1A but only one limited release four years ago of a scale PM caboose.  Another release is long overdue..

BTW, here's another...a scale NYC/Michigan Central caboose has never been made in O gauge by anyone.  

 

 

LOS,

 

      One of our two rail O members had a GGD 21" set of passenger cars, he was pulling the with a Pocono engine. Our 2 rail section unlike the 3 rail is flat and level. Long story short he could not pull More than 6 cars as out of the box those GGD cars rolled like a brick. Oiling the axles helped a lot but I don't thing GGD passenger cars have the best rolling characteristics. I could be wrong. 

      What about buying 2 sets of E units and swap shells so you hare two powered units? I know it is expensive but you already bought the passenger cars so you cannot waste them . You can also add a helper engine, don't know what road you run but maybe a Northern steam engine? I hate to say it but I do not expect Lionel to add powered B units. We would of seen them already. Also a lot of roads never had E B units.

      Good luck whatever your solution is.

 

JohnB

 

Hot Water,

 

   I maybe wrong but I think LOS already has the Lionel E units (AA). I don't know how a Legacy Engine would run with a TMCC SS/3rd/GGD B unit. I tend to run my Legacy engines with other Legacy engines, same with TMCC. Also SS/3rd/GGD is not the low cost alternative to Lionel Legacy. If they do run good with Legacy then it maybe the answer. If starting from scratch then it may make sense to go with SS/3rd etc. 

 

JohnB

Yes I already have Lionel E6's John, with a custom B unit because Lionel didn't make a Santa Fe one. So I did, but it's not powered.

I already have Lionel F7s and F3s with 2 powered units in each consist. 2 will pull a 15 car GGD train but its pushing their limits, especially on a grade.

I have reservations for

3rd Rail:

E8 ABA all powered
F7 ABBA all powered

Atlas:

F7 ABBA 3 powered units

I don't cut corners with power. If they sell powered units, I'll but them. Thats why I sent the Legacy E8s back...well the biggest reason anyway.

To stray off topic a bit, the above commentary demonstrates exactly why I prefer traction tires on my engines.

 

Yes, it can be another (very small) maintenance issue, but instead of having 3 or 4 powered units where two (with traction tires) will do is my preference.

 

Not only for cost, that is obvious, but for the issue of power draw and most importantly, the engines to mesh well together.

 

I am very concerned about the new 3^rd rail F7’s (ABBA, all powered) syncing well with each other. On paper, it should not matter, but there have been more than a few threads focusing on problems of getting two engines to lash-up… probably user error, but now we are going to do this with up to four units! Hopefully my concerns are unfounded and for naught. Looking forward to seeing some videos from LOS with all four units pulling his El Cap.

 

Charlie

I think the ERR boards make a big difference. My 3rd Rail FP7s run 100% in sync at any speed, in either direction. I am hoping, crossing my fingers and toes, that all 4 units will be just as smooth.

With my Lionel TMCC F3s, I dont run them as a lash up. The A and B are both programmed as engine #19. I pulled all the lights and smoke units out the the trailing units anyway. I do the same thing with the TMCC F7s. 3rd Rail FP7s are programmed as TR6.

I found this thread educational. I'm still a novice but I have nine GGD 21 inchers on a layout rather too small for such a train. I pull them with an MTH E8 A-A unit. Up a 2% grade and around 0-72 curves. The entire train is never on a straight-away.

 

When I pull the cars by hand, I am appalled at how much force it takes! And I noticed immediately that the GGD cars seem to roll very stiffly . . . oil can only help so much and, in my case, it did not help much. Those cars roll poorly!

 

The E8s pull the cars very well, up the grade and all. But the train does not back up well!

All 3 of my GGD trains roll fine, after some lube and several hours of run time. They are just heavy... I have no complaints about that at all...just like real trains. They are heavy and need power. A dummy or non-powered engine is nothing more than a big heavy passenger car that don't roll freely.

Closed coupled passenger cars rarely back up well, especially if the diaphragms are are touching. You would need HUGE curves to stop the diaphragms from binding up on a shove. When they cars are stretched out, its just enough of a gap between diapgrams to prevent that binding. The full length diaphragm frames on the El Capitan create more issues as they are rigid.

These 2 Walthers reshopped cars; I stripped everything, repainted and decaled.,  weigh just shy of 5 1/2 pounds each and the two modernized Walthers cars are close to 7 pounds because of zamak seats..   In short they track well need lube and roll like a brick.

I believe this thread began with you looking for a set of Pere Marquette passenger cars.  MTH did a 7 car (5+2) set that matches my E diesels perfectly.  Yes, every cat named CHESSIE deserves her own train set - was a good excuse to buy it.  If I have it wrong or you have not found a set - email me or post here and I will dig out the boxes and get you the numbers. 

It would have been nice to see matching cars in the same catalog if they were going to produce them. Unless it is a must have engine, guessing many will sit and not order such an expensive item wishing they might do them.

 

Really wish they would make all units powered and drop those evil rubber tires. At best a horrible nuisance when they fall off and can be easily replaced, at worst a disaster when they require removing the body and motors to get at the side frame screws or when they come off and jam up the drive which burns a motor or board up. Have no lash up issues at all so that is not a concern.

At the Lionel price point, sound in all powered units would be nice.

CJB [Christine J. Braden] Custom Painting & Designs painted a set of Walter Matuch's RMT (formerly K-Line) Amtrak streamliners to match my 2348 M&StL GP9.

 

She could paint a set of passenger cars to match the new E7's.

 

We corresponded by email about colors, lettering and numbers. She did a great job!