May be hitting the "electronic failure wall"

That's somewhat odd, I have a bunch of fairly ancient TMCC, and I've had no significant uptick in failures.

I've been saying for many years I run conventional because of fear the fancy electronics failing. I was a senior analyst before I retired and still analyze things to death (wife quote)

I have benefited from these electronic failures....buying dead locos and adding a DCRU and thus a nice loco for much less then original cost. If I have to I'll strip all electronics and run DC power as if I was back in HO scale 1970's!! 

Dave, while it's fashionable to suggest going back to basics, many of us, including me, don't want to go back to basics.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Dave, while it's fashionable to suggest going back to basics, many of us, including me, don't want to go back to basics.

And why model railroading is so great. So many options from conventional to cutting edge remote......plain plywood layouts to dramatic mountains that look real. Tiny Z to G...something for all!!!!  Including conventional!!

I have to admit that I have struggled with this decision each time it has come up.  I have not seen an uptick in failures but have had some from each of the major manufacturers.  In the end I have to agree with John that I don't want to go back to basics.  Not for just me, but for my audience (consisting of mostly my grandkids now) who love the interaction offered by the newest technology. 

Rolland

RLaHaie posted:

I have to admit that I have struggled with this decision each time it has come up.  I have not seen an uptick in failures but have had some from each of the major manufacturers.  In the end I have to agree with John that I don't want to go back to basics.  Not for just me, but for my audience (consisting of mostly my grandkids now) who love the interaction offered by the newest technology. 

Rolland

I have two granddaughters, 4 and 6. I have never tried to have them run trains with the ZW. Just hand them a remote and away they go. They figure it all out on their own. Especially the Legacy tower com. I am often amazed. 

Lou N

One must not forget that even a "simple" DCRU is an electronic device.

I have had very few electronics failures (I run mostly TMCC and friends), and PS-1 and PS-2 seem to be as prone to failure as TMCC.

And, last week I took my "old" Lionel Santa Fe Alco S-2 switcher off the wall shelf to test it (I intended to re-paint it GM&O). Haven't run it in 6 - 7 years (maybe more). Powered up and all the electronics worked just fine (the smoke unit was always marginal). Sound, couplers... 

Tried to move it and...jammed. Mechanically. Both directions. Turn it over and the wheels spin freely (not good); turn it right side up and it tries to move (motor/electronics are fine) and...jams. Both trucks.

This loco has a single center motor with a driveshaft to each truck.

So - haven't opened it up yet, but I imagine that the truck gear "towers" have crumbled, or the gears within them have. 

In this case, electronics 1, mechanicals 0.

Be glad you have access to this forum..there is a near 100% chance your issues will be solved. I am all command and fairly new at this..but i got to tell you i never would have gone "deep"  with out this forum.

D500 posted:

One must not forget that even a "simple" DCRU is an electronic device.

 

100%  correct......and I have installed 15-20 Dallee or WbB units with zero failures.....pretty bullet proof. 

15-20 tells you how many dead command locos I have bought.....I also have 3 locos I bought new with command boards that are dead I have yet to gut.  At full MSRP hard to justify....they should still be running. 

Dave, the 3 locomotives you bought new, how come they weren't repaired under warranty? I'm just curious. Was the warranty period over? If so how long did each locomotive last?

They lasted 3-4 years before 'the clang' (hint who's they are)

And trying to get work done at that point is not worth it.....just DCRU them when I get there.  

not a slam on any mfg.....just how electronics work....or don't.

I run mostly postwar with some modern. Every time that the modern electronics (from ALL the brands) have gone, I replace them with an old e-unit and a rectifier. My one concession to modern operation is the original MTH walk-around throttle. When that goes, I'll guess I'll either make my own from a couple of variable resistors in a box with a l-o-o-n-g wire or go back to pulling the handles. 

And when nothing works, I'll go to BRIO. 

Hello guys and gals...........

There's ONLY one answer that is pre-war and post-war Lionel, American Flyer, Marx and older Williams with it's simple easy to fix electronics then the FUN continues !!!!!

Tiffany

This loco has a single center motor with a driveshaft to each truck.

I didn't know Lionel used this sort of mechanism in "O" gauge. Do many engines have it?

artyoung posted:

I run mostly postwar with some modern. Every time that the modern electronics (from ALL the brands) have gone, I replace them with an old e-unit and a rectifier. My one concession to modern operation is the original MTH walk-around throttle. When that goes, I'll guess I'll either make my own from a couple of variable resistors in a box with a l-o-o-n-g wire or go back to pulling the handles. 

And when nothing works, I'll go to BRIO. 

  No need for a l-o-o-n-g wire to the analog throttle if you use "plug stations" like we did in the 70's.

    I don't remember the brand, but was that possibly early digitrax? Their remote throttle's today, look very much like the ones we used "back in the day".

   After a few months, we just pulled handles again, but still had a remote handy for troubleshooting. Running on an 18'x30'-ish layout, the 10 step walk back to the transformers just wasn't a big issue, and that's where the chairs were.

   Trouble shooting was the big advantage of having the remote, but once the layout was perfected, the remote use just faded away for us anyhow.

   At double that layout size (doubtful for me), or 2 trains on 1 track with anti-collision sensing "built in" might get me back into remote controls, I just never saw enough advantage to want "remote" all the time.

  And while I've admittedly grown found of the sounds from a Berk jr's tender idling in the background, and I don't mess with the volume on short runs, on long sessions, I usually turn the sounds off after a few laps anyhow.

  This just gave me an idea! I removed a sidings turnout to run more Marx fat wheels, leaving a nice spur siding detached, but with switched track power, separate switched power for the track the  loco's sit on, and an accessory section too. I think the Berk's tender, and a milk/log car or two may have a semi-permanent home vs going back on the shelf after a run. Sounds will off or on, at the press of a button; one that's already there so all I need to do put the cars on the rails ....I'm off to the layout, thank you all for the unintended inspiration.

I do not much about electronics, but it has been my experience that if they work well at first, they will work well for a very long time. 

There is always an exception, however rare.

The good old days!  I call that the dinosaurs mentality.  

My layout is so small that sounds get annoying after awhile.  I have also had to gut and replace failed early sound boards on both MTH and Lionel.  Either with new sound boards or back to basic reverse unit.  All the while, my Father's  lowly 1655, a starter set engine from 1948/49 era, just keeps running,  I did swap out the original chassis for one that had lower hours as it ran better.  Dad's original chassis has almost worn the idler gear studs in half from all the run time he and myself have run the old girl.  But it will still run and it sits in my spare parts drawer. I never replaced anything other than converting to roller pickups instead of slides that like to snag turnouts.   I have seen zinc pest in several MTH items, from tender shells to trucks, unsure if any newer(Chinese built)Lionel have suffered any of this problem.  If I gambled, I would put my money on any older, pre sound/electronics engine over anything with them in it.  But thats just me, and many love the sounds and features new engines have.  Thats wonderfull, but that comes at a price, and failure over the long haul is one of those dangers that come with those electronic marvels.  They are so complex that only a new board is the option to replace, where as most better hobby shops and even modelers can disassemble, clean most Postwar/MPC era engines, rebuild the mechanical E unit ect.   Mike

I'm an advocate of command control, but if I wasn't, I would just power my tracks with DC and rip out the electronics. If not running PW, why have an E unit? I don't have any PW.

My son loves the instant feedback of conventional. He hates engines slowly speeding up and slowing down. He's also three. So, not a lot of patience there either.

Oman posted:

I'm an advocate of command control, but if I wasn't, I would just power my tracks with DC and rip out the electronics. If not running PW, why have an E unit? I don't have any PW.

I LIKE that idea, as I have a Williams F-3 ABA set but needs about 7 amps to run them together, who makes a very powerful DC transformer to put out least 10 amps DC ?   The Williams F-3's has 6 motors....and can remove the 3 boards, run them on straight DC sounds good to me.

Tiffany

Tiffany posted:

Oman posted:

I'm an advocate of command control, but if I wasn't, I would just power my tracks with DC and rip out the electronics. If not running PW, why have an E unit? I don't have any PW.

I LIKE that idea, as I have a Williams F-3 ABA set but needs about 7 amps to run them together, who makes a very powerful DC transformer to put out least 10 amps DC ?   The Williams F-3's has 6 motors....and can remove the 3 boards, run them on straight DC sounds good to me.

Tiffany

Bridgewerks DC power supplies can put out 20 amps or more @ 24 volts.

Astron Ham radio DC power supplies claim to put out something like 40 amps @ 12 volts.

2 old 12 volt car batteries wired in series can deliver 24 volts @ 1,000 or so amps...can recharge them via solar/ wind power.

Tiffany posted:

I LIKE that idea, as I have a Williams F-3 ABA set but needs about 7 amps to run them together, who makes a very powerful DC transformer to put out least 10 amps DC ?   The Williams F-3's has 6 motors....and can remove the 3 boards, run them on straight DC sounds good to me.

Tiffany

Just get a heavy duty bridge rectifier and use it with your big AC transformer. It will cost you less than $10 and you can add a DPDT switch to go from AC to DC if you wanted. 

Unlike most electronic things I've bought over the years, I've had very few failures of my command engines.  When my engines do fail, I send them to John or Alex to get fixed.  Maybe even upgrade with new electronics and sound.  I run my other engines while it's getting fixed.  I have no complaints, other than wish the electronics on new cars were as reliable as on my trains.

Very little problem with older TMCC and 5 volt PS-2 around here. Including an older ATSF Northern with close to 3000 miles on it. Runs great. Only failure lately has been a nearly new Legacy ATSF FEF. Go figure. For the OP, are you adequately protected with TVS's, breakers, etc?

Rod

From our group of guys we see the TMCC units still running flawlessly while some Legacy units have had issues right out of the box, a few to the point where they were returned for refunds.

Rod Stewart posted:

Very little problem with older TMCC and 5 volt PS-2 around here. Including an older ATSF Northern with close to 3000 miles on it. Runs great. Only failure lately has been a nearly new Legacy ATSF FEF. Go figure. For the OP, are you adequately protected with TVS's, breakers, etc?

Rod

Yes, we've had the breakers and fuses in place since the beginning and rarely have them trip as we try very hard to avoid wrecks and derailment shorts.  Actually have tried to take very good care of the equipment with regular servicing and careful handling.

Friends have commented they have never heard of any fellow 3Railers having such bad luck with them.  Had to return many new locomotives which failed out-of-the-box or shortly after being placed on the layout.  The record was having to return one new engine FOUR times, at my expense, before the problem was corrected.

Trying to resolve problems often times ends up going around and around and around until frustrations intervene and they go on the display shelf, or end up being sent to one of the fixers here.

Literally, we cannot afford to keep paying for repairs of current locomotives, and buy new ones at the same time.

For instance, we've been trying to find a solution for the Atlas switcher's problems for a month, off and on.  Still "broken".

Be glad you-all are blessed with having avoided "the luck of the Irish".

Casey Jones2 posted:

Tiffany posted:

Oman posted:

I'm an advocate of command control, but if I wasn't, I would just power my tracks with DC and rip out the electronics. If not running PW, why have an E unit? I don't have any PW.

I LIKE that idea, as I have a Williams F-3 ABA set but needs about 7 amps to run them together, who makes a very powerful DC transformer to put out least 10 amps DC ?   The Williams F-3's has 6 motors....and can remove the 3 boards, run them on straight DC sounds good to me.

Tiffany

Bridgewerks DC power supplies can put out 20 amps or more @ 24 volts.

Astron Ham radio DC power supplies claim to put out something like 40 amps @ 12 volts.

2 old 12 volt car batteries wired in series can deliver 24 volts @ 1,000 or so amps...can recharge them via solar/ wind power.

Ham radio power supplies might give one purer DC than model train supplies.  Electronic hash could create problems in a ham signal both in terms of the output signal, or hearing the input one,

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Casey Jones2 posted:

Tiffany posted:

Oman posted:

I'm an advocate of command control, but if I wasn't, I would just power my tracks with DC and rip out the electronics. If not running PW, why have an E unit? I don't have any PW.

I LIKE that idea, as I have a Williams F-3 ABA set but needs about 7 amps to run them together, who makes a very powerful DC transformer to put out least 10 amps DC ?   The Williams F-3's has 6 motors....and can remove the 3 boards, run them on straight DC sounds good to me.

Tiffany

Bridgewerks DC power supplies can put out 20 amps or more @ 24 volts.

Astron Ham radio DC power supplies claim to put out something like 40 amps @ 12 volts.

2 old 12 volt car batteries wired in series can deliver 24 volts @ 1,000 or so amps...can recharge them via solar/ wind power.

Ham radio power supplies might give one purer DC than model train supplies.  Electronic hash could create problems in a ham signal both in terms of the output signal, or hearing the input one,

As long a twelve volts is enough, the 50a Astron I had was great; & very clean. 13.75 no load voltage, if I remember right.

   It was a monstrous unit the size of a large home stereo and very  heavy!

   I sold it because I couldn't lift it anymore. Seemed like it was 2 or 3 ZWs worth of weight.

I could start my VW bug with it .

Oman posted:

I'm an advocate of command control, but if I wasn't, I would just power my tracks with DC and rip out the electronics. If not running PW, why have an E unit? I don't have any PW.

  The use of a negative wave in electronics is actually pretty common, and so some engines might actually need the AC wave for full operation. I think Weaver may have used a negative wave on at least one model. My buddies (GP or SD?) wouldn't run right on his DC layout, but crept along fine on all my AF and Lionel transformers.

   There's also neutral for idling lights (and sounds on moderns), and more importantly, prototypical steam operations.  My Grandfather never moved a steamer with a 3 position E-unit till there was smoke curling off the top of the smokestack He'd say  "Patience; it takes time to fire a steamer"

Some Modern era (1970 & on) Lionel locomotives had warnings not to try to operate them on D.C.

C W Burfle posted:

Some Modern era (1970 & on) Lionel locomotives had warnings not to try to operate them on D.C.

True if they have open AC  motors. I myself am referring to modern DC can powered locos.....pull the electronics or DCRU and run them. I have about 10 AC only locos that I could not run on a DC  system. 

Adriatic posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Casey Jones2 posted:

Tiffany posted:

Oman posted:

I'm an advocate of command control, but if I wasn't, I would just power my tracks with DC and rip out the electronics. If not running PW, why have an E unit? I don't have any PW.

I LIKE that idea, as I have a Williams F-3 ABA set but needs about 7 amps to run them together, who makes a very powerful DC transformer to put out least 10 amps DC ?   The Williams F-3's has 6 motors....and can remove the 3 boards, run them on straight DC sounds good to me.

Tiffany

Bridgewerks DC power supplies can put out 20 amps or more @ 24 volts.

Astron Ham radio DC power supplies claim to put out something like 40 amps @ 12 volts.

2 old 12 volt car batteries wired in series can deliver 24 volts @ 1,000 or so amps...can recharge them via solar/ wind power.

Ham radio power supplies might give one purer DC than model train supplies.  Electronic hash could create problems in a ham signal both in terms of the output signal, or hearing the input one,

As long a twelve volts is enough, the 50a Astron I had was great; & very clean. 13.75 no load voltage, if I remember right.

   It was a monstrous unit the size of a large home stereo and very  heavy!

   I sold it because I couldn't lift it anymore. Seemed like it was 2 or 3 ZWs worth of weight.

I could start my VW bug with it .

Oman posted:

I'm an advocate of command control, but if I wasn't, I would just power my tracks with DC and rip out the electronics. If not running PW, why have an E unit? I don't have any PW.

  The use of a negative wave in electronics is actually pretty common, and so some engines might actually need the AC wave for full operation. I think Weaver may have used a negative wave on at least one model. My buddies (GP or SD?) wouldn't run right on his DC layout, but crept along fine on all my AF and Lionel transformers.

   There's also neutral for idling lights (and sounds on moderns), and more importantly, prototypical steam operations.  My Grandfather never moved a steamer with a 3 position E-unit till there was smoke curling off the top of the smokestack He'd say  "Patience; it takes time to fire a steamer"

I don't know what you mean mean by "negative wave", but I did not consider neutral where the locomotive has power and can smoke, blow a whistle and ring a bell.

Tiffany posted:

Hello guys and gals...........

There's ONLY one answer that is pre-war and post-war Lionel, American Flyer, Marx and older Williams with it's simple easy to fix electronics then the FUN continues !!!!!

Tiffany

Tiffany, you hit the nail right on the head! I was beginning to think I was one of the few left here that operate mainly postwar.

Hello, my name is Lenny, I've been a postwar addict for nearly 40 years and have been Chinese Lionel free for 7 years........

Kerrigan posted:

Rod Stewart posted:

Very little problem with older TMCC and 5 volt PS-2 around here. Including an older ATSF Northern with close to 3000 miles on it. Runs great. Only failure lately has been a nearly new Legacy ATSF FEF. Go figure. For the OP, are you adequately protected with TVS's, breakers, etc?

Rod

Yes, we've had the breakers and fuses in place since the beginning and rarely have them trip as we try very hard to avoid wrecks and derailment shorts.  Actually have tried to take very good care of the equipment with regular servicing and careful handling.

Friends have commented they have never heard of any fellow 3Railers having such bad luck with them.  Had to return many new locomotives which failed out-of-the-box or shortly after being placed on the layout.  The record was having to return one new engine FOUR times, at my expense, before the problem was corrected.

Trying to resolve problems often times ends up going around and around and around until frustrations intervene and they go on the display shelf, or end up being sent to one of the fixers here.

Literally, we cannot afford to keep paying for repairs of current locomotives, and buy new ones at the same time.

For instance, we've been trying to find a solution for the Atlas switcher's problems for a month, off and on.  Still "broken".

Be glad you-all are blessed with having avoided "the luck of the Irish".

Kerrigan;

You mention breakers and fuses, but what about TVS's; transient voltage suppressors?? Very important with engines filled with electronics, to keep voltage spikes from frying the boards. Anytime you have a short, or a power interruption in the power to the engine you set up a voltage spike situation. The TVS will attenuate the spike and harmlessly suppress it before it causes damage.  You should have one wired across every transformer output, and every TIU track output, it you use a TIU. Just my opinion.

Rod

Lenny the Lion posted:

Tiffany posted:

Hello guys and gals...........

There's ONLY one answer that is pre-war and post-war Lionel, American Flyer, Marx and older Williams with it's simple easy to fix electronics then the FUN continues !!!!!

Tiffany

Tiffany, you hit the nail right on the head! I was beginning to think I was one of the few left here that operate mainly postwar.

Hello, my name is Lenny, I've been a postwar addict for nearly 40 years and have been Chinese Lionel free for 7 years........

Hello Lenny the Lion........

Too bad I don't have any postwar but I have just 2 engines ,1 from Korea and other from China.  You been Chinese Lionel free for 7 years as that's a good record !!!!  I better work on that one of these days !!!!!!!!!!  The only postwar engine I like to have is the good old 2383 F-3 which I had a 12730 set in 1968 but sold the set in 1974 to get money for my first car (big mistake) but cannot afford engines for long while.   I would be interesting in just the double motor powered F-3 "A" unit that's made in good old USA, SIGH.............

Tiffany

What a coincidence for me that this subject came up.  After many years of solid performance, within the past 2 months I have had 4 engines that have malfunctioned in one way or another, and I'll probably be back here asking for help before I ship them off to the repairman.  All MTH, with one having fully functional sound but won't move, another that has lost its sound but moves just fine.  A third one reacts in whatever way it feels like at the time with the DCS remote, and another one that likes to blow out its voltage regulator in the B unit rear motor.  2 of the engines are older PS2, another one a newer PS2, and my favorite and newest PS3 Southern steamer are down and out.  Plus, my 14 switches have suddenly gone haywire whenever I have friends over to show off the layout.  So, we'll be in touch.

Mike

You mention breakers and fuses, but what about TVS's; transient voltage suppressors?? Very important with engines filled with electronics, to keep voltage spikes from frying the boards.

Were I into running trains with electronics, I certainly would install TVS's on my layout. I think I'd go as far as putting them right inside each locomotive and tender, unless there was an issue with voiding the warrantee.

When this subject comes up, I usually wind up wondering why the manufactures don't put TVS's inside their locomotives for us.

C W Burfle posted:

You mention breakers and fuses, but what about TVS's; transient voltage suppressors?? Very important with engines filled with electronics, to keep voltage spikes from frying the boards.

Were I into running trains with electronics, I certainly would install TVS's on my layout. I think I'd go as far as putting them right inside each locomotive and tender, unless there was an issue with voiding the warrantee.

When this subject comes up, I usually wind up wondering why the manufactures don't put TVS's inside their locomotives for us.

You're right, to properly protect the locomotive, the TVS should be inside the locomotive.

   More is better if one TVS fails sure (and they can fail from spikes eventually), but one across the transformer terminals gets the spike on the track too. Its just positioning, not a big deal.

One in the engine could prevent a "static cling" charge from cooking a chip. (yes,  rare, but it can happen, ask a video game tech).(wait a sec. .. that was me )

OMAN, take a peak at the attachment, it may help you some. "Sine wave" is the proper term..."my bad".