MTH Cancellations

Is there a cost, other than the expense of printing and art work in the catalogs, when a company cancels an item. I would guess if they made a prototype there would be some additional cost.

Then again I think most of the catalog photos might be items from other scales.

As others have said, these cancellations are across multiple catalogs and scales/gauges that MTH produces. Each scale/gauge only has a few items cancelled. Some of the HO stuff was for Marklin 3 rail systems, possibly sort of an obscure system? There was really not a lot of O gauge cancelled and as others have said it seems Lionel has already over produced the ones cancelled. Then some European and 2 rail items were cancelled, not sure what is going on there? From following the OGR forums, I think the 2 rail market is pretty small as well as the standard gauge and tinplate market. Others here have stated this from time to time, which is what I am going by.

I took a quick look at the MTH 2014 v2 catalog and counted the number of different products available in just RailKing engines only. There were 70 items available to order in just that one category, RailKing engines. This got me to page 35 of the 178 page catalog. I don't see how a hand full of cancellations out of this many products is all that bad? As a percentage of items offered it is very small.

And as far as pre-ordering, I understand the frustration when a pre-ordered item is cancelled, I would be unhappy as well. However, by not pre-ordering, aren't you all kind of shooting yourselves in the foot so to speak? Seems like more pre-orders would help your cause, not hurt it. 

If you all pre-ordered the items you really want there may be enough for MTH to go ahead and produce the item. My guess would be that if the pre-orders came anywhere near the number required for MTH to profit from the run, they would go ahead and produce the item. Pretty sure they would risk a few extras if they came close to their required amount.

1 - cancellations are NOT false advertising.

2 - "finding less and less" - have you actually looked at all the O-gauge stuff out there -

not to bring in too much hyperbole, but some "used" and unused, NIB items selling for approaching pennies on the catalogue price dollar? I find more than I can even contemplate. A friend got, just yesterday, at online auction (the Usual) FOUR, NIB, Atlas

Master Line WM boxcars - for $99. Four. Twenty bucks apiece, for Atlas premier boxcars.

Cheaper than Industrial Rail. Yeah, "less and less".

The pre-order/cancellation is a chicken and egg situation. If the manufacturer goes ahead and produces everything in the catalog regardless of pre-orders, he's going to get stuck with a lot of unsold stock to blow out. If he floats a lot of items and cancels the ones that don't attract a lot of orders, then the people who did order are mad. If he cuts back and only catalogs what he's sure will sell, he's going to wind up with a very cramped product line. 

I like it that MTH will put up a trial balloon and see what happens. MTH has produced a far greater variety of road names in recent years than Lionel - if cancellations are the price of variety, I'm OK with that. I will miss those Euro tank cars, though - I was hoping to get a couple more tankers to run behind my Swiss Cargo electric. 

A good point, David!  At first glance the list looks terribly imposing, but when broken down into its various "pieces," it's a bit less so.  About the only impact I see on my planned purchases would be the #1 Gauge VO-1000.

With all the "complaints" did anyone actually lose an ordered item? Doubt it 

But the Pennsy H-10's would have  looked so good on the layout.

The canceled Pennsy H10's were Marklin HO stud rail compatible.

Rusty

Wrong! I had the NYC Shark Nose set on PO. Kinda bummed about it.

Didn't pre order anything because nothing I wanted was available in scale wheels anyway. Was greatly disappointed that the GG1 fast freight ordered 3 years ago arrived with tinplate wheels my order was for scale wheels

To my knowledge none of the sets are ever offered with scale wheels.

Well Jeff I did so you are incorrect.

My blue goose and my Hiawatha sets both came with scale wheels

I was thinking of doing something different for the Christmas layout and buying something new for myself ( maybe convince the wife)which I haven't done lately outside of the secondary market ( set break-ups). Out of total ignorance, does MTH have a Christmas season catalog and, if so, does it also follow the pre-order procedure in it's entirety or is it a safe bet? Also, would it arrive on time for Christmas, if there is a seasonal catalog? What would be the catalog number and \ or name? This would be for tinplate...

That's really interesting. What part #'s were those? I have never seen MTH put scale wheels on any of their US passenger cars. Both of the sets you mention came with Hi-Rail wheels according to the catalogs. If they actually came with scale wheels I would really be interested to know more as I've never seen or heard of a set coming with scale wheels.

Are you sure you aren't confusing Proto 3/2 capability with scale wheels?

Originally Posted by maint:
       WOW that's looks like a lot, I'm glad I didn't have any of these ordered.
 
Exactly, the reason they have been cancelled.

Jack

There is some NEW tooling in the new catalog due out in October. If you like any of them then pre-order them or they might not be made. 

Thanks. What is the turn around time for posting an item in a catalog and receiving word it will go through or be cancelled? I am thinking I might need a back-up selection.

It seems like there is a 4-6 month lag between catalog and announcement of cancelations. Although a friend of mine ordered the scale wheel NYC Mohawk and he was never notified that the version he ordered was cancelled. Jim Sutter had to contact MTH to find out if they were made or not and MTH wasn't even sure initially. So I guess it can vary.

Thanks..I thought it was a shorter turn around time.

It sounds like the previously mentioned October catalog ( Items produced ) then would not be confirmed until the following year. So then...would the current catalog be the one to go by in terms of Christmas delivery? Has this been confirmed in terms of the total items that will be produced? It sounds as if it has (?)

I pre-ordered an MTH Locomotive one month before its scheduled deliver but MTH pushed the delivery back 3 months then another 3 months and then no known amount of slip and no product. It was my first and last pre-order. I cancelled it! If it isn't on the shelf it isn't on my list of wants.

I have only been around O gauge trains for my current layout for a little over a year. Virtually all that I bought was MTH. The list of disappointments and problems with MTH is huge just for my little 7 x 9 layout, like new trains that develop problem, some right out of the box. New RealTrax track and switch problem galore. Cars that won't make the tight O-31 curves without modification that the spec's say they will. Also electronics that require extensive disassembly to replace blown fuses because the power brick circuit breaker is too slow acting. And other problems!

Unfortunately MTH is the the only game in town for me (My control system is DCS TIU/AIU). Yes, I finally got it all to work or fixed it (the RealTrax issues are impossible to totally fix and all I can do at this point is live with some track problems still).

The availability of any specific item is spotty so I always have to compromise. This is not as I thought it would be. Oh well, what I do have now works most of the time and you live and learn.

Would Lionel been any better???

I feel sorry for those of you who got caught up in this long cancellation list. At least they didn't string you along for months and months like they did my pre-order (It is not on the list).

LDBennett

I think the cancellation time above is about right. The pre-order time is shorter, only about a month or so, although I have gotten some pre-orders in much later than that. Those were probably fairly popular items and they had a good supply of them, or I might have missed out completely. 

The more pre-orders they have in their designated pre-order time limit, the better chance the item will have of being produced (as Charlienassau said above). I think that would be especially true if they had to make new tooling for the item. Older tooling might have a better chance of being made without the required amount of pre-orders.

So theres roughly a month to pre-order and roughly three to four months until the final production run is determined. When the final list of production items is determined, then how long is it for the item to be received? I should have asked this all in one question...duh. I do know it ( delivery) can vary based on comments here, but a general range might help. I appreciate the answers...it's a calculation I have not done before.

Hi Folks,

Except for the new products, the fact is that most of the items can be found on the used market.  Much of the stuff on the used market is new in the box and has never been run.  

There is a ton of stuff at every train show that I attend and most of it isn't selling.  The prices of most of the vendors are reasonable.  I know that I have stopped buying unless I can sell something that I already have.  I have more trains that I can use or run.

I don't blame MTH for canceling items where this is no demand.

The only thing that puzzles me is why MTH or Lionel would catalog an identical product where there is already an oversupply.  (I know that a Lionel Shark with Legacy is not exactly the same as a MTH Shark with PS-3.  How many people are going to buy both?  I would guess that most people on this forum run both Lionel and MTH engines on their layouts.)

In my opinion, there are too many Big Boys, Cab Forwards, F unit diesels, NYC Hudsons, and many more items.  I suppose it is difficult for a manufacturer to come up with a new model after the market is already saturated with older versions of the same prototype.

The only way for the market to pick up is for new people to take up the hobby.  This isn't happening in great enough numbers.

Joe

I tried to get my nephew into trains, even bought him a train set. He is more interested in playing video games. Doesn't run his trains anymore.

Hmmmmm.....

"Wow that's a lot."

'Wow, that's some list of cancellations!'

'Dang, that's one big list."

"WOW that's looks like a lot."

"It’s the end of the line folks? Holy Schmoly Batman! That is a wake up call! Even the much vaunted European market with supposedly great selling trains got the axe."

"A rather disturbingly lengthy list, to be sure!"

etc., etc., etc.

Sooooooo.....   Not having much else to do for the past 15 minutes, I grabbed my MTH 2014 Volume 2 cattlehog, sat down with an ice cold libation, turned to the pages featuring products beginning with 20- and/or 22-......and began counting. 

Lessee.....the cancellations list had a total of 26 numbers in the 20- and 22- category.

The 2014 Volume 2 cattlehog lists a total of 474 numbers in the same category between pages 69 and 160.

Doing the math, we find that this works out to a cancellation percentage of...

(drum roll, please)

5.48523206751055%

OR....looking at it from the other direction, they're planning on fulfilling orders for...

94.51476793248945% of their cattlehogged items.

Either way, I'd say MTH is doing quite well....considering the uncertainties of the local, state, and national economies, stagnant incomes, anemic job growth, an industry dependent on disposable () income, a broad product mix targeting uncertain regional acceptance, a continued high rate of labor turnover in China, multiple levels of independent, international participants in the entire 'dust-to-delivery' scheme of getting product into the hands of customers worldwide, rough seas and earthquakes, labor unrest, .....blah, blah, blah. 

But, then, that's just MHO.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

KD 

Yes, approx. a month to pre-order. It seems like May 30th was the cut off date for the MTH 2014v2 catalog which came out at the spring York meet I think. This date was per my LHS.

Then as johnnyspeed said 4-6 months for cancellations. I took this to mean after the catalog comes out, but maybe he will clarify. I haven't had anything cancelled so I don't really know for sure there, but johnnyspeed has had items cancelled and probably has a better idea about timing on that. That's what I was going by.

As for when it's received, that is a completely unknown time. Example, I ordered a BNSF SD45 on 10/26/2013 from the 2014 v1 catalog. Original ship schedule was March 2014. It has just recently shipped and I think I will be getting it next week. I have had a few things arrive within a month or so of the scheduled ship date. Others a year or more. My LHS has been waiting on some items for well over a year. Some manufacturers have had big problems with the manufacturers in China, as you may know. 

So this part (when will I get it) is kind of a crap shoot. Lionel seems to have the same problems with scheduled ship dates, as does Atlas and probably all the others. We are just out in the guess when it will ship area this one.

My thoughts are they are all going to more of a build to order system (so to speak) so they don't get stuck with a lot of excess inventory sitting around. I think the more we pre-order and the sooner we do it will speed up these processes. If they reach their quota the item gets made. If they come close I think it will have a good chance. If they are way short it probably won't happen this time around. New tooling will probably have to meet their quotas or will not get made. However, I have no inside info on any of this.

My thoughts exactly, only I think you should have considered the entire catalog as we are talking different catalogs being represented in the list, not just product lines. The O gauge cancellations should be a percentage of all the O gauge cataloged. If you did that it would be a much smaller percentage. That's what I was trying to say in my earlier post above.

Okie-dokie!  I believe you have a good point!....

That adds another 202 items in the 30- section.

474 + 202 = 676.

The O gauge cattlehog cancellations (Locomotion and rolling stock, only) percentage would then be....   (Tympani roll, please!!) 

3.84615384615385%

OR....a fulfillment percentage of (gasp!) 96.15384615384615%

Yo, Sir Michael of Wolf!!!......

Gee, didn't expect you to actually do it, but thanks, that's great! Much better calculations there. Glad you agreed! I haven't been back in the hobby long, about 3 years or so, but one other thing I have noticed in that time is the catalogs are growing in number of pages. Don't want you to have to do more figuring, but that's another thing to consider also.   

Compared to 30-35+ years ago when I left the hobby, things today are amazing and the number of manufacturers, quantity, selection, electronics, controls etc. is still almost unbelievable (to me anyway). I'm adjusting, but I still think I'm dreaming sometimes. If only I had more money and more room, I'd have more trains. I almost wish they would have cancelled an item or two I had pre-ordered, then I might have a little money left for the next catalog that is coming all too soon. Notice I said 'almost'.

Thanks..

 I didn't want to post here but.....

the reason many 2 railers are alarmed is that they have been cancelling a lot of product. This is just the latest batch of additional cancellations.

 So the math is skewed unless you look at all the two rail announced and then cancelled. I too am becoming alarmed and paying closer attention.

Well the One-Gauge VO-1000 was cataloged about a year ago. It appears that MTH gave a year to place a pre-order before they cancelled it. Yes there was a 1 month dealer pre-order but MTH was taking online orders up until now.

look at this list! won't copy.

add premier

2014 v1

#22- prefix box

in this search pane

http://mthtrains.com/content/item-shipping-dates

there's a big list of scale wheels that got cancelled

I'm nervous because they left G scale for awhile. They did announce they're coming back. I'm still hopeful.

There have been some Christmas items in previous LCT catalogs.  If you want it for Christmas 2014, it's probably best to order something already in stock...otherwise it's anybody's guess when it will arrive.

Jeff Davis

I've been in the model train hobby for 10 years, but after 2006, i just forgot about it due to money issues, but in 2013 i got back into it and saved up some money and now besides two MTH non Powered subway cars that I've had for 10 years, i got the matching set and i also bought an Southern Pacific SD45T-2, just slowly saving up to build up my collection, it just takes time, im kinda glad that they're re-releasing some of the same products because for people like me and others who are in the hobby that are young would have a chance to get a product they have missed 

You make a good point. I actually had noticed there were a lot of 2 rail models cancelled, and not that many were offered to begin with. I think cancellations from the previous catalog were almost all 2 rail also, if I remember correctly.

I don't know enough about the differences between the 2 and 3 rail models, but I wouldn't think installing scale wheels in place of hi-rail wheels would be that hard at the factory? Is it the fixed pilots that make the big difference? I'm only 3 rail, so I really don't know anything about the 2 rail versions. Then there is the 3/2 versions which I don't know much about either, like how to convert them besides flipping the switches? I guess it's time to go look at the catalogs for further study.