MTH Changing Warranty Policy

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I never understood the comparison of automobiles to niche hobby manufacturing

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Originally posted by Trainman9:

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I'll pass on the WARRANTY in favor of buying Scale Engines @ $.40 on the Dollar @ Maurer's and Stout's...you can't have it all. I like paying $400 at auction for the same stuff others shell out $1300 at their LHS Smile.

Well you might get MTH stuff at 50% off MSRP, that seems to be the going rate, but watch out for the GBoys, you know who I mean, they pay top dollar for Lionel stuff and are not usually outbid for items they want.

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Originally posted by Allan Miller:

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I never understood the comparison of automobiles to niche hobby manufacturing

I've never understood it either. An apples-to-oranges comparison if there ever was one.

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Originally posted by Dale H:

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Originally posted by Allan Miller:

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I never understood the comparison of automobiles to niche hobby manufacturing

I've never understood it either. An apples-to-oranges comparison if there ever was one.

It is about integrity or lack there of.

Dale H

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Originally posted by Railrunnin:

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Originally posted by Dale H:

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Originally posted by Allan Miller:

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I never understood the comparison of automobiles to niche hobby manufacturing

I've never understood it either. An apples-to-oranges comparison if there ever was one.

It is about integrity or lack there of.

Dale H

wrong again, it is NOT about integrity, it is about BUSINESS.

I am amazed at the number of people who don't understand the basic concept that these companies (Lionel and MTH) are trying to run a profitable business. I have no problem with the warranty policies. Seems very fair.

Paul

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I find it laughable that folks expect a manufacturer's warranty on a 6 year old product even if it is new in the box. If you are going to buy a loco that old then make sure the dealer will warrant it somehow.

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Originally posted by Allan Miller:
Well, there's always Bachmann and Williams by Bachmann (Lifetime Limited Warranty):

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My one experience with the Williams "Lifetime Limited Warranty" was not good.

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Originally posted by Allan Miller:
Williams is no longer in Columbia, MD. It's Williams by Bachmann these days, and for the few that ever need Williams engines serviced (I've never needed that service), they have a pretty good track record with relatively few complaints here or elsewhere. Ditto for their Bachmann N, HO, On30, and Large Scale lines.

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Originally posted by jd-train:
Seems that all of the companies will need to put a manufactured date on the outside of the box, so a customer will know when a product was actually made.

Jim

How would it work if you bought something on Ebay from a known dealer?  Would it be under warranty?

There's a way to solve this, but the major retailers would have to step up. The retailers selling new old stock older than 3 years (Lionel) or 5 years(MTH) could agree to voluntarily put a new old stock sticker on the box and offer a three month warranty from the retailer. That would take care of dead out of the box issues. It would also be wise for the shop to take the item out of the box, lube it and demonstrate it to the customer, but the mass merchandisers simply wouldn't have the time to do that.

Yes, the retailers would have to sell at a higher price, but it would still be a lot less expensive than buying new for non-collectable items. There's always a trade-off.

If you are paying 50 cents on a dollar for a new item, you are already getting a bargain. Expecting an additional 5 years of warranty protection after buying an item that is new but has sat for 4-5 years at a time when the computer technology is moving so rapidly just isn't realistic. Buying any product that has sat on a shelf (at best) or been moved around for 4-5 years does entail additional risk for the buyer. That risk is reflected in the significantly lower price.

The manufacturers policies seem reasonable to me. They cannot control storage conditions, being brought to and from shows, being bounced around in cars, etc. As the years pass, the risks rise even for new in box merchandise.

Expecting to buy a new item for 50% off five years after it was manufactured, then expecting to get an additional five years of warranty coverage is asking to have your cake and eat it too. From a business standpoint, the risk for the manufacturer is too high, and the electronic parts may not even be available.

Do we have any more replies on this issue?

hello guys and gals...........

so where do we stand from all this ? i mean do we gain from it or lose big time when comes buying NOS trains ?

the woman who loves toy trains

Tiffany

There isn't a definitive answer. A new-old-stock loco could outlive you, or it could conk out an hour after you start running it. It could be a simple issue to fix if you have experience with various generations of locomotive innards, or it could be a panic-inducing event with no resolution that you know of.

---PCJ

Haven't had any problems with my MTH or LCT locomotives but now I mostly buy Marx...

No warranty needed. They just keep on runnin'!

I like Williams: simple, reliable construction; interchangeable parts; good warranty that I don't really need.  In a way, it is the "new Marx" of toy trains.  I have purchased many NOS Williams engines and have had very few problems, although careful lubrication is a must.

In general, I believe that most warranty repairs are due to poor quality control and testing.  If a train importer sells a limited number of each production item, that is all the more reason to check each item in house carefully.

Each item should be tested before final packaging.  In the old days, most electronics items and appliances bore a "tested by" or "inspected by" label with name, number, or initials of the final inspector.

When a manufacturer issues a strong warranty, it means it trusts its own products enough to believe that warranty repairs will be infrequent.

Nowadays, quality control is deficient; and consumers are expected to take the place of post-assembly inspectors.  Manufacturers believe it is less costly to take returns and make repairs than it is to do real testing and hire good quality-control teams.

Unfortunately, this type of cost/benefit analysis makes many consumers lose faith in manufacturers.

MTH and Lionel could provide a limited warranty for NOS items by including the phrase "subject to availability of parts" and adding an additional service charge (as Williams does).

An additional problem is that, even for items covered by warranty, parts seem to become suddenly unavailable.  Moreover, some off-shore factories prefer to deliver whole products and not parts.

I have to agree with the poster who mentioned that more quality inspectors seem to be needed.  Sadly, however, when I worked in industry the push was for the BIQ plan:  "Built-In-Quality" by each employee, rather than final QC of each item.

On the brighter side, I have to mention an experience with Aristo-Craft.  I bought a G-gauge diesel which sat on display for a few years because of no track to run it on.  When I finally did try it it wouldn't move - just sat and spun its wheels.  I contacted AC anyway, explaining that it was out of warranty, but unrun up to that point.

Do you know they accepted it back, replaced a warped frame, and charged nothing?

I tried the same thing with Lionel last year, and got nowhere with the snippy rep.  Asking to speak to her supervisor, I was told, "He'll just tell you the same thing." 

Trainfun writes:

"Expecting to buy a new item for 50% off five years after it was manufactured, then expecting to get an additional five years of warranty coverage is asking to have your cake and eat it too."

Who is offering a 5 year warranty?  Lionel and MTH are 1 year, and have been for a long time; and, I believe, WBB has just tightened up their lifetime warranty considerably.

It seems to me that the only way to ensure quality is to supervise production and test final products.  I really don't think inspection and testing are superfluous for any credible manufacturing.  Every assembly line produces flawed products.  Catching these before they are sent on to the consumer seems to me to be a reasonable and, in the end, cost-effective practice.  Otherwise, the consumer becomes the tester and inspector.  That doesn't seem to me to be the way for companies to gain the confidence of those who consider buying their products.  Dr. Seuss is funny, but actual testing of products by skilled inspectors is not a Dr. Seuss kind of job.  It saves shipping and repair costs, as well as needless buyer frustration.  Does MTH test their products stateside before final distribution?  Does Lionel?  Or do they send out as-is  whatever they receive from China?  Of course, companies have to make a profit; but long-term profit comes by way of association of brands with quality assurance.  People prefer to buy from companies that "stand behind" their products and separate the wheat from the chaff before products go to retail.  As a consumer, I would gladly pay more for a product I know will work when I unpack it.  I would also be pleased if some of the dollars paid to stockholders and executive officers would be spent on more thorough testing of assembled products.  When a company's products have a high failure rate or a service center doesn't stock enough parts or fix items under warranty in a timely way, people stop buying that company's products.  Making a profit requires ongoing customer satisfaction.

I have been buying MTH products for the last 8 months and until today, I never knew about what was going on.  Both authorized stores and train shows claim new in box, but unless it has a date of manufactured stamped in the outside, we will not be aware of what we are getting.  I makes me upset to know now, that after several buys, and expensive, that my product may not live up to its warrenty. 

What makes you say that?

The new policy applies to items delivered after Jan 1,2012.

Looks to me that the effect of this new policy is 5 years down the road on trains delivered after 01/01/12 and still new on the shelf then.

I don't really understand the argument that since trains aren't produced by the millions as are cars and electronic devices, one can't expect a high standard of quality control.  To the contrary, since most items are produced in small or tiny production runs, there is simply no excuse for a high failure rate.  High end locomotives are a luxury product more like Gucci than Hyundai.

No matter the view supporting or rejecting the idea of this new policy, it has always been true buyer beware. However it should be self evident that any policy will have two sides to it. What needs to be looked at is the policy idea of one size fits all. To be ethically responsible, even with business practices, there needs to be exceptions to the rule. We all have heard from time to time no matter which manufacturer, there are productions which have an unusally high failure rate. These items need to be the exception. If you are the original purchaser and the manufaturer basically produced a lemon, there should be an unlimited or long time warranty for the repair to be made. I know many enthusiasts who buy for some future layout but have not had the opportunity to run their items. If the manufacturer knows of a problem it should keep a supply of parts to correct there mistake and do it under an exception warranty. If they want to get the problem over more quickly, then they should admit problem on this and other forums and in the related magazines and get the job done. That includes requesting retailers to return such items and not keep on their shelves unrepaired waiting for unsuspecting customer.

Larry S